Lo Squalo Dello Stretto discussion thread

[Libertine Seguros]

No, but Vincenzo needs to drop him uphill in order to attack on a descent which is unreal. )

How so? If Andy keeps looking over his shoulder and being scared to go alone without his brother, all Vincenzo needs to do is be as good a climber as Fränk, and he'll get to the summit with Andy, then he can attack downhill.

At his best, Vincenzo is in my eyes at least as good a climber as Fränk.

 

[Parrulo]

No, but Vincenzo needs to drop him uphill in order to attack on a descent which is unreal. )

he doesn't need to drop andy on the uphills, he can ride him off his wheel easily on the downhill part, and if andy is climbing like he was last year, he won't be dropping nibali anyway after all he also never managed to drop evans.

if andy wants to win this tour he needs his 2010 form back with his 2009 race mentality, otherwise he will fail.

 

[airstream]

How so? If Andy keeps looking over his shoulder and being scared to go alone without his brother, all Vincenzo needs to do is be as good a climber as Fränk, and he'll get to the summit with Andy, then he can attack downhill.

At his best, Vincenzo is in my eyes at least as good a climber as Fränk.

Well, I wouldn't be so categorical. Anyways, Nibali rode the Giro where the climbs are passed much slower.. And how much would Nibali gain on descents?

You are reasoning like an attack on a descent is as a piece of cake whereas in reality if the main pack in the amount of 8-10 best guys arrive at the top of peyresourde, very likely no one will even think about attack, otherwise we would have seen attacks on any downhill

 

[Parrulo]

Well, I wouldn't be so categorical. Anyways, Nibali rode the Giro where the climbs are passed much slower.. And how much would Nibali gain on descents?

Vuelta 2010 final GC
1 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA) Liquigas-Doimo 87h 18' 33"
2 Ezequiel Mosquera (ESP) Xacobeo-Galicia + 41"
3 Peter Velits (SVK) Team HTC-Columbia + 3' 02"
4 Joaquim Rodríguez (ESP) Team Katusha + 4' 20"
5 Fränk Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank + 4' 43"

i bet the great tour rider that frank schleck is decided that the vuelta was subpar for him so didn't even bothered to race it properly and give a chance to the kids

tell me airstream are the guys that ride the tour also better descenders then the ones that ride the giro/vuelta? nibali must be just an average descender if thats the case.

 

[Havetts]

Pretty sure Frank Schleck was planning his peak for the Tour though, broke his collarbone and still managed to ride to the 5th place without any team support. If Wiggins gets a pass this year for breaking his collarbone and then coming 3rd then why shouldnt Frank Schleck?

 

[airstream]

Vuelta 2010 final GC
1 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA) Liquigas-Doimo 87h 18' 33"
2 Ezequiel Mosquera (ESP) Xacobeo-Galicia + 41"
3 Peter Velits (SVK) Team HTC-Columbia + 3' 02"
4 Joaquim Rodríguez (ESP) Team Katusha + 4' 20"
5 Fränk Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank + 4' 43"

i bet the great tour rider that frank schleck is decided that the vuelta was subpar for him so didn't even bothered to race it properly and give a chance to the kids

tell me airstream are the guys that ride the tour also better descenders then the ones that ride the giro/vuelta? nibali must be just an average descender if thats the case.

I'd rather not exaggerate a descent factor. A successful downhill move for a marked rider is far harder than say getting away on hc climb and putting into 40 sec. Guys, if the only way to get top-3 (top-5) for Nibali is a couple of great attacks on descents - ok, I can agree to that.

 

[Parrulo]

I'd rather not exaggerate a descent factor. A successful downhill move for marked rider is far harder than say getting away on hc climb and putting into 40 sec. Guys, if the only way to get top-3 (top-5) for Nibali is a couple of great attacks on descents - ok, I can agree to that.

you should watch arroyo descending the mortirolo to see how much damage a great descender can do on a technical descent.

just fyi he gained 2 minutes on every1, he simply road away from guys like evans and vino on a descent like if they were standing still.

and nibali can also attack uphill don't worrie. the descent talk just came because cineteq said nibali would regain the time lost to wiggins on the itt's on the descents alone

 

[airstream]

you should watch arroyo descending the mortirolo to see how much damage a great descender can do on a technical descent.

just fyi he gained 2 minutes on every1, he simply road away from guys like evans and vino on a descent like if they were standing still.

and nibali can also attack uphill don't worrie. the descent talk just came because cineteq said nibali would regain the time lost to wiggins on the itt's on the descents alone

watched a lot of times. but it wasn't a representative moment because the 1st group was descending in Basso's tempo very accurately with no risks (or within the limits of the risk Basso could afford at least - theres no big difference). Who will let Nibali go??

 

[Parrulo]

watched a lot of times. but it wasn't a representative moment because the 1st group was descending in Basso's tempo very accurately with no risks. Who will let Nibali go??

did i mentioned the basso group in my post? i think not. i mentioned good descenders like evans and vino that still lost tons of times to an extraordinary descender like arroyo. nibali can do similar damage.

on the monte grappa stage of that giro nibali increased his lead to the evans/scarponi and basso group being led by evans on the descent from 20 seconds to nearly a minute in just 1 or 2 k's of technical turns, so big differences can be made on descents.

and who will let nibali go? it's not a question of letting him go but rather who will have the stones to follow him? my bet would be evans and samu being the only riders able to do it.

 

[cineteq]

Who will let Nibali go??

By saying that you just admitted he's a big favorite, Gotcha!!!!

As Parrulo said he doesn't need permission to go, he will just do it and leave everyone in the dust. I think Sanchez will be the only one to go since he's in the same boat as Le Squalo...Evans might hesitate thinking of TTs to catchup.

 

[airstream]

did i mentioned the basso group in my post? i think not. i mentioned good descenders like evans and vino that still lost tons of times to an extraordinary descender like arroyo. nibali can do similar damage.

No, but it is directly related to the guys he chased. As for Vino and Evans it is partially a matter of motivation as well.

on the monte grappa stage of that giro nibali increased his lead to the evans/scarponi and basso group being led by evans on the descent from 20 seconds to nearly a minute in just 1 or 2 k's of technical turns, so big differences can be made on descents.

Well, yeah, but again, an attack on a downhill implies a good functional reserve after an uphill. If Nibali will have it - it's a question. Additionally, how much he won then? About 35 sec during a 30k solo? was it worth doing that? Big difference can be made on descents only while a weak resistance of the group. Believe, I'm saying this out of any personal preferences.

and who will let nibali go? it's not a question of letting him go but rather who will have the stones to follow him? my bet would be evans and samu being the only riders able to do it.

are you serious? if it's no pra martino or mortirolo, a descent is at about 80% TT, as far as I understand it. Do you really give Nibali such a cosmic edge over the group at any kind of descending?

i bet the great tour rider that frank schleck is decided that the vuelta was subpar for him so didn't even bothered to race it properly and give a chance to the kids

Not really. He just had injury and possibly didn't want to lay himself out completely considering what rosterings Riis made then. The team was in agony.

 

[Parrulo]

No, but it is directly related to the guys he chased. As for Vino and Evans it is partially a matter of motivation as well.

Well, yeah, but again, an attack on a downhill implies a good functional reserve after an uphill. If Nibali will have it - it's a question. Additionally, how much he won then? About 35 sec during a 30k solo? was it worth doing that? Big difference can be made on descents only while a weak resistance of the group. Believe, I'm saying this out of any personal preferences.

are you serious? if it's no pra martino or mortirolo, a descent is at about 80% TT, as far as I understand it. Do you really give Nibali such a cosmic edge over the group at any kind of descending?

to the first part: evans was still fighting for the win at that point. he had all the motivation in the world to get back to the basso group. and yes i give nibali a big edge on this over most GT riders.

to the second part:he was working for the team, him being up the front forced evans and scarponi to chase while basso sat up, the following day on the zoncolan basso was able to put more then a minute on those 2 and i bet the chasing of the previous stage was one of the reasons for that. so it was more then worth it, as it meant a stage win for liquigas and gigantic step towards a GT win.

to the third part: have you ever ridden a bike in your life? descending is all about knowing how to corner and breaking as late as possible. this just shows how little you know about cycling.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, I wouldn't be so categorical. Anyways, Nibali rode the Giro where the climbs are passed much slower..

Yes, riders tend to go slower on climbs that average 10% than on climbs that average 5%. Glad to know you've been paying attention.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Yes, riders tend to go slower on climbs that average 10% than on climbs that average 5%. Glad to know you've been paying attention.

full stop

 

[airstream]

Yes, riders tend to go slower on climbs that average 10% than on climbs that average 5%. Glad to know you've been paying attention.

Exactly, and they are so used to 10% that later get over 5% with almost the same speed as they did 10%. I think Contador was shocked on Etna seeing the guys riding at 4-5% sections as he's accustomed to go at 10%.

to the third part: have you ever ridden a bike in your life? descending is all about knowing how to corner and breaking as late as possible. this just shows how little you know about cycling.

yes, for sure. I was saying about aerodynamic effect on a descent mostly. I'm absolutely certain all superelite riders will survive on Nibali's wheel on any tornante and even if lose the wheel for a second anyways then will be able to chase him on a straight stretch of road and as it were hide from airstream behind Nibali's back. It's basis otherwise likes of Nibali could have won GTs on descents. however.. well, ok, though it's a bit weird to read that from the guy who thinks that descents can give Nibali top-5 or even better. And on which stage is Nibali going to implement his unforgettable attack on the descent?

OK, Parrulo, I understand your point. Why then we see resultative (and any other) attacks on descents so rarely, if Nibali and so to speak Samuel Sanchez have such an overwhelming and global advantage at it?

 

[airstream]

to the second part:he was working for the team, him being up the front forced evans and scarponi to chase while basso sat up, the following day on the zoncolan basso was able to put more then a minute on those 2 and i bet the chasing of the previous stage was one of the reasons for that. so it was more then worth it, as it meant a stage win for liquigas and gigantic step towards a GT win.

The fact that he helped Basso being ahead predetermines his working for the team secondarily. Primarily, to attack on the Grappa descent was his decision and he worked for himself. Again, it's the Tour, not the Giro and uphill can tire him so much that he won't have enough to go off on descents. By the way, judging on Nibali's move on the descent from Giau his attacks have two sides. It's an interesting attacking rider for sure, but he survives on big climbs, I even don't know who passes them more desensively than Nibali.

 

[Red Rick]

This is going to go on forever

 

[hfer07]

1. 8 Million Per Year-imaging the contract will go for at least 3--time to cash in

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Exactly, and they are so used to 10% that later get over 5% with almost the same speed as they did 10%. I think Contador was shocked on Etna seeing the guys riding at 4-5% sections as he's accustomed to go at 10%.


yes, for sure. I was saying about aerodynamic effect on a descent mostly. I'm absolutely certain all superelite riders will survive on Nibali's wheel on any tornante and even if lose the wheel for a second anyways then will be able to chase him on a straight stretch of road and as it were hide from airstream behind Nibali's back. It's basis otherwise likes of Nibali could have won GTs on descents. however.. well, ok, though it's a bit weird to read that from the guy who thinks that descents can give Nibali top-5 or even better. And on which stage is Nibali going to implement his unforgettable attack on the descent?

OK, Parrulo, I understand your point. Why then we see resultative (and any other) attacks on descents so rarely, if Nibali and so to speak Samuel Sanchez have such an overwhelming and global advantage at it?

Che cazzo?

 

[Parrulo]

1. 8 Million Per Year-imaging the contract will go for at least 3--time to cash in

i wonder where is gloin22 atm

btw airstream i am not going to bother with you anymore, you are not worth my time, when i could be putting it into a much better discussions with posters with a lot more knowledge about cycling then you.

 

[The Hitch]

he did. (10 c)

But now in the other thread people are saying he is doing the giro?

So where did he confirm that he is doing the Tour?

 

[Caruut]

a descent is at about 80% TT, as far as I understand it.

Where did you even get this from?

 

[karlboss]

Nibali and Sanchez are about equal in their Tour chances for mine, and in the same way, i think they are better climbers than Evans, Wiggins, Menchov, and better TTers than Schleck. They can also drop guys on a downhill. So if Schleck attacks they could take some time on the TTers and win it in the TT over Schleck otherwise.
So much of the excitement in this tour rest on Schleck.

 

[Caruut]

Nibali and Sanchez are about equal in their Tour chances for mine, and in the same way, i think they are better climbers than Evans, Wiggins, Menchov, and better TTers than Schleck. They can also drop guys on a downhill. So if Schleck attacks they could take some time on the TTers and win it in the TT over Schleck otherwise.
So much of the excitement in this tour rest on Schleck.

I think one of the 3 TTers will win, then one of Nibali or Sanchez, and one of the remaining two TTers will get the podium places, with Schleck 4th or 5th.

 

[Eshnar]

But now in the other thread people are saying he is doing the giro?

So where did he confirm that he is doing the Tour?

Someone told me he confirmed it before the start of Liége... I didn't see him anyway, but rewatching it seems he was just repeating the I'll-do-atoc-and-tour-unless-team-changes-its-mind thing so I'm not sure he did confirm anything