Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings culture thread

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Do something about the ridiculous price for testing. Testing is so expensive right now. Make it cheap as chips.

I would venture to compare it with VCRs and computers. Expensive until mass produced. One UCI lab, a team of 20-30 travelling testers. Fines may cover (some of the) costs.
the delgados brings up a great point: maybe the UCI definition of doping should be more general, not a list of substances as it is today (doomed to be obsolete the second it is printed), but along the lines of "using a product with the intent to gain unfair advantage". It takes several people to dope a rider: make one admit the intent.
I think it's a big deal to turn the tables on the dopers, whose credo is: time is on our side. The catch up game would be over with a massive retro-testing program.
For the retired ones who beat the system, ensuring that they have no room in cycling, no creds, TV deals to include that clause, bike companies and sponsors prohibited from using their names/services if they want to be in the pro tour. Adios Jaja.
There are ways guys, there are ways...

not like technology. because they always need the new tests with the new research. so the old research automatically becomes expired. So your testing modules, never age. They are always a "new product" to market. So the cost and expense structure, essentially is the same. tests wont get cheaper then, like a 15yo ipod. no, you need the new iPhone.

To a certain extend, I agree. Developing a test that detects new substances is extremely expensive, same with a test that can detect minuscule amounts of an already known product. What I think helps, is that the lab wouldn't be shooting in the dark. EPO wasn't a secret for long, same with AICAR. Once you know what to look for, things get somewhat easier. So maybe instead of 4 and 8, 6 and 12 years for samples B and C. My VCR analogy may have been poorly chosen, yet it is possible to cut costs by have a lab doing that exclusively. You can process 50 samples at once, daily, not one at a time.
Hey, give me a UCI job, I'll figure out how to make it work .

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Ray J Willings wrote:

Why are you getting angry,

Point 1, Your quote "I don't care how my kids reach their goals" I never said That. That is assumption and there is no truth in that statement what so ever. You don't know me and I can tell you that what you have said is a lie and before you make an accusation you need to make sure you have some facts.

Point 2, Now what your are implying by this quote "Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust" is that every person who has won a gold medal or been a champion or won a GT who has doped are morally depraved and have no integrity,,,,, that is nonsense and utter tripe. We are talking about sport not politics, not policeman, not banking, not soldiers in a war ,,,,,,,, Sports ,so try and get that in context of the big world.

You are saying that their parents have no morals , you are saying that the athletes themselves have no morals and you are saying that they should not be parents.

Nearly Every athlete who gets to the top Cycling, athletics. Football. whatever sport will come to a point when they have to decide weather they are going to take some PED's and compete with the very best or just stay as they are or just retire. If one of my sons got in that position then it would have to be his choice,
That does not make him a bad person , It does not mean he is uneducated, it does not mean he his going to rob someone in his spare time . It certainly does not mean that he has been raised corrupt or without morals or ethics ,,,we are dealing with pro sport .

What it does mean is that if he wants to go further then he would need to take PED's . That is the culture of sport that is how it is. Now he can take the PED's like thousands of athletes have down the years and have a very successful career in a sport he has put thousands of hours of time and work to get to where he his or he can retire. This is the culture of sport, If you want to win or compete you are going to have to dope.
You are not a professional athlete so you have not put in the hours of training and traveling and time.
So if my son at that point opted to take something then that would be his decision. I understand the culture and the needs of pro sport and doping is part of that at the elite level.

So if my son won a gold medal yes I would be proud because that does not make him or me or anyone a bad person its the culture of sport , right or wrong that's what you need to do.

Now here is a link to a list of athletes from all over the world who have doped "thousands" in alphabetical order FFS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Now you are telling me that they are all bad people with bad family's and are corrupt. You are judging all those thousands of people because you think you stand morally on higher ground "your a better person" and have not even been in that position.

I would think that most of them are decent people who forced into a situation of PED's because they have no choice or retire.

So yes I would like to see PED'S made legal , the thousands of athletes in that list show what a farce the system we have in place is . We can look after athletes and make sure they stay healthy and stop wasting all that money on testing. Athletes will always dope , you can't stop it.

So don't patronise me with your morals at least I would try and get a control of the situation.
You can carry on with your sporting ethics and integrity that in reality have never truly existed apart from the egg and spoon race at the local school . Your ideals leads to riders like Ricco nearly killing himself and others who have . They have no guidelines because peopled like you say its So wrong.

So maybe now you understand the point and if you want to keep on fighting for a drug free sport that's fine and dandy and I understand how you have come to that view but IMO its a fight that was lost from the very beginning and with sport now a financial gold mine doping is here to stay so lets at least try and keep people healthy.
cheers

Look, you don't have to make excuses to me for having no integrity. You also don't need to drag in the parents of other race and medal winners, as you have no idea if they've ever espoused the same idea you have. I don't know if they'd be proud of their kids winning if they knew that they cheated to do so? I do know you profess to feel that way. I don't know why you're back-tracking? Just own it, and move on. We all lack integrity at some point in our lives, so welcome to the world. That you seem to think you are promoting virtue with your attitude toward your children is disconcerting, but again, you can quit trying to make excuses to me about it.

Another tip, if you're going to keep making excuses for your lack of integrity, please shorten it up. Nobody wants to read a book on the subject. A few lines will do.

 

[blackcat]

lol thats a zinger of a smackdown/pleonasm

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Ray J Willings wrote:

Why are you getting angry,

Point 1, Your quote "I don't care how my kids reach their goals" I never said That. That is assumption and there is no truth in that statement what so ever. You don't know me and I can tell you that what you have said is a lie and before you make an accusation you need to make sure you have some facts.

Point 2, Now what your are implying by this quote "Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust" is that every person who has won a gold medal or been a champion or won a GT who has doped are morally depraved and have no integrity,,,,, that is nonsense and utter tripe. We are talking about sport not politics, not policeman, not banking, not soldiers in a war ,,,,,,,, Sports ,so try and get that in context of the big world.

You are saying that their parents have no morals , you are saying that the athletes themselves have no morals and you are saying that they should not be parents.

Nearly Every athlete who gets to the top Cycling, athletics. Football. whatever sport will come to a point when they have to decide weather they are going to take some PED's and compete with the very best or just stay as they are or just retire. If one of my sons got in that position then it would have to be his choice,
That does not make him a bad person , It does not mean he is uneducated, it does not mean he his going to rob someone in his spare time . It certainly does not mean that he has been raised corrupt or without morals or ethics ,,,we are dealing with pro sport .

What it does mean is that if he wants to go further then he would need to take PED's . That is the culture of sport that is how it is. Now he can take the PED's like thousands of athletes have down the years and have a very successful career in a sport he has put thousands of hours of time and work to get to where he his or he can retire. This is the culture of sport, If you want to win or compete you are going to have to dope.
You are not a professional athlete so you have not put in the hours of training and traveling and time.
So if my son at that point opted to take something then that would be his decision. I understand the culture and the needs of pro sport and doping is part of that at the elite level.

So if my son won a gold medal yes I would be proud because that does not make him or me or anyone a bad person its the culture of sport , right or wrong that's what you need to do.

Now here is a link to a list of athletes from all over the world who have doped "thousands" in alphabetical order FFS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Now you are telling me that they are all bad people with bad family's and are corrupt. You are judging all those thousands of people because you think you stand morally on higher ground "your a better person" and have not even been in that position.

I would think that most of them are decent people who forced into a situation of PED's because they have no choice or retire.

So yes I would like to see PED'S made legal , the thousands of athletes in that list show what a farce the system we have in place is . We can look after athletes and make sure they stay healthy and stop wasting all that money on testing. Athletes will always dope , you can't stop it.

So don't patronise me with your morals at least I would try and get a control of the situation.
You can carry on with your sporting ethics and integrity that in reality have never truly existed apart from the egg and spoon race at the local school . Your ideals leads to riders like Ricco nearly killing himself and others who have . They have no guidelines because peopled like you say its So wrong.

So maybe now you understand the point and if you want to keep on fighting for a drug free sport that's fine and dandy and I understand how you have come to that view but IMO its a fight that was lost from the very beginning and with sport now a financial gold mine doping is here to stay so lets at least try and keep people healthy.
cheers

Look, you don't have to make excuses to me for having no integrity. You also don't need to drag in the parents of other race and medal winners, as you have no idea if they've ever espoused the same idea you have. I don't know if they'd be proud of their kids winning if they knew that they cheated to do so? I do know you profess to feel that way. I don't know why you're back-tracking? Just own it, and move on. We all lack integrity at some point in our lives, so welcome to the world. That you seem to think you are promoting virtue with your attitude toward your children is disconcerting, but again, you can quit trying to make excuses to me about it.

Another tip, if you're going to keep making excuses for your lack of integrity, please shorten it up. Nobody wants to read a book on the subject. A few lines will do.

I have made my points, I HAVE MADE NO EXCUSES "dig it, NONE" . THATS YOU ONCE AGAIN MAKING ASSUMPTIONS.
I stick by what I said 100% and let you carry on being the one who believes in fairies

You seem to completely missed the point of my post and gone on some crusade about how I lack integrity. You have not tried to address any of the points I have made because it will make you look like a hypocrite. Your response also shows how you have no idea about the reality of pro sports. Your ideals are unrealistic as all those doping athletes prove and YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
And why do you bother watching sport ? Nearly all the athletes are doping so they must be lacking integrity ,how can you watch them ....Your a big fudging hypocrite.
The world is not all black and white and your attitude, MORONIC response reveals the kind of person you are.
I tried to debate some good points but you are to STUPID to see that. Your angry because you realise what a hypocrite your are by even watching sports doped athletes.
Instead of attacking me " Im not doping"
Do the F77k something about it. But you can't so you sit on the sofa pointing fingers and getting mad.
Fu$$ me. to think that someone like you could even have kids.
I'm sure you will reply with another personal attack ,,,,Go ahead ,carry on proving your the moron your posts prove you to be .....

cheers

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Ray J Willings wrote:

Why are you getting angry,

Point 1, Your quote "I don't care how my kids reach their goals" I never said That. That is assumption and there is no truth in that statement what so ever. You don't know me and I can tell you that what you have said is a lie and before you make an accusation you need to make sure you have some facts.

Point 2, Now what your are implying by this quote "Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust" is that every person who has won a gold medal or been a champion or won a GT who has doped are morally depraved and have no integrity,,,,, that is nonsense and utter tripe. We are talking about sport not politics, not policeman, not banking, not soldiers in a war ,,,,,,,, Sports ,so try and get that in context of the big world.

You are saying that their parents have no morals , you are saying that the athletes themselves have no morals and you are saying that they should not be parents.

Nearly Every athlete who gets to the top Cycling, athletics. Football. whatever sport will come to a point when they have to decide weather they are going to take some PED's and compete with the very best or just stay as they are or just retire. If one of my sons got in that position then it would have to be his choice,
That does not make him a bad person , It does not mean he is uneducated, it does not mean he his going to rob someone in his spare time . It certainly does not mean that he has been raised corrupt or without morals or ethics ,,,we are dealing with pro sport .

What it does mean is that if he wants to go further then he would need to take PED's . That is the culture of sport that is how it is. Now he can take the PED's like thousands of athletes have down the years and have a very successful career in a sport he has put thousands of hours of time and work to get to where he his or he can retire. This is the culture of sport, If you want to win or compete you are going to have to dope.
You are not a professional athlete so you have not put in the hours of training and traveling and time.
So if my son at that point opted to take something then that would be his decision. I understand the culture and the needs of pro sport and doping is part of that at the elite level.

So if my son won a gold medal yes I would be proud because that does not make him or me or anyone a bad person its the culture of sport , right or wrong that's what you need to do.

Now here is a link to a list of athletes from all over the world who have doped "thousands" in alphabetical order FFS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Now you are telling me that they are all bad people with bad family's and are corrupt. You are judging all those thousands of people because you think you stand morally on higher ground "your a better person" and have not even been in that position.

I would think that most of them are decent people who forced into a situation of PED's because they have no choice or retire.

So yes I would like to see PED'S made legal , the thousands of athletes in that list show what a farce the system we have in place is . We can look after athletes and make sure they stay healthy and stop wasting all that money on testing. Athletes will always dope , you can't stop it.

So don't patronise me with your morals at least I would try and get a control of the situation.
You can carry on with your sporting ethics and integrity that in reality have never truly existed apart from the egg and spoon race at the local school . Your ideals leads to riders like Ricco nearly killing himself and others who have . They have no guidelines because peopled like you say its So wrong.

So maybe now you understand the point and if you want to keep on fighting for a drug free sport that's fine and dandy and I understand how you have come to that view but IMO its a fight that was lost from the very beginning and with sport now a financial gold mine doping is here to stay so lets at least try and keep people healthy.
cheers

Look, you don't have to make excuses to me for having no integrity. You also don't need to drag in the parents of other race and medal winners, as you have no idea if they've ever espoused the same idea you have. I don't know if they'd be proud of their kids winning if they knew that they cheated to do so? I do know you profess to feel that way. I don't know why you're back-tracking? Just own it, and move on. We all lack integrity at some point in our lives, so welcome to the world. That you seem to think you are promoting virtue with your attitude toward your children is disconcerting, but again, you can quit trying to make excuses to me about it.

Another tip, if you're going to keep making excuses for your lack of integrity, please shorten it up. Nobody wants to read a book on the subject. A few lines will do.

I have made my points, I HAVE MADE NO EXCUSES "dig it, NONE" . THATS YOU ONCE AGAIN MAKING ASSUMPTIONS.
I stick by what I said 100% and let you carry on being the one who believes in fairies

You seem to completely missed the point of my post and gone on some crusade about how I lack integrity. You have not tried to address any of the points I have made because it will make you look like a hypocrite. Your response also shows how you have no idea about the reality of pro sports. Your ideals are unrealistic as all those doping athletes prove and YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
And why do you bother watching sport ? Nearly all the athletes are doping so they must be lacking integrity ,how can you watch them ....Your a big fudging hypocrite.
The world is not all black and white and your attitude, MORONIC response reveals the kind of person you are.
I tried to debate some good points but you are to STUPID to see that. Your angry because you realise what a hypocrite your are by even watching sports doped athletes.
Instead of attacking me " Im not doping"
Do the F77k something about it. But you can't so you sit on the sofa pointing fingers and getting mad.
Fu$$ me. to think that someone like you could even have kids.
I'm sure you will reply with another personal attack ,,,,Go ahead ,carry on proving your the moron your posts prove you to be .....

cheers

Easy there big fella', you might blow a head gasket or something.

Anyway, you are aware that in every facet of life, there are people who cheat. It isn't limited to just cycling. So the lesson you are teaching your children about there being no reason to undertake any activity with integrity, because there are other people cheating, is onerous to society, and far reaching. However, you can have some solace in the fact that you are not alone. Many people espouse your beliefs, and like you, even venerate the departure from integrity as though it is a virtue. That's makes me have a frowny face.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings cultur

Chewy. I don't know if you are deliberately trolling or your just a moron who keeps repeating the same old point because you don't seem to have the intelligence for a rational debate.


"I'm sure you will reply with another personal attack ,,,,Go ahead ,carry on proving your the moron your posts prove you to be "
I was spot on with there, my last post cheers

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings cultur

Chewy. I don't know if you are deliberately trolling or your just a moron who keeps repeating the same old point because you don't seem to have the intelligence for a rational debate.


"I'm sure you will reply with another personal attack ,,,,Go ahead ,carry on proving your the moron your posts prove you to be "
I was spot on with there, my last post cheers

I accept your apology.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

I am afraid the idea of changing the rules to include "anything that would give an advantage is not going to be feasible"
So if I have an altitude tent and you don't I'm cheating, WHY?
If I have an altitude machine hooked up to me while training on my rollers and you don't I'm cheating?
If I have a larger VO2 max than you I'm cheating?
There has been a large amount of work done on why some people have a VO2 max higher than others and from different parts of the world and actually a lot of scientists have put forward the idea that EPO is not necessarily a cheating mechanism but a biological field leveler if everyone is capped at 50% hematocrit and EPO is legalised.
Likewise if I go to the doctors with an ailment and get diagnosed something that is not on the list and has no known benefits but is then proven 1 year down the line to produce benefits was I cheating?
There is too much grey in the world for simplistic arguments I am afraid.

For me the one major change that would make a big difference to the culture of the sport has nothing to do with the drugs at all. It is the money that drives the arms race. If you had the money side under control then you would have less of an arms race.

When you look at the big scandals over the years and the most ridiculous doping it has come from the big money teams (generally)
Mapei, Festina, USPS, SKY, Tinkoff. Big teams backed with lots of cash able to go out and jump out of the pack for unknown reasons (mainly known but some as yet unproven)

Now that reason is not that they are able to go to better training camps or ride on better roads or sleep on more expensive beds. It is pretty obvious. What needs to happen is the money needs to be controlled, maybe a fine for the team backers if any money is proven to be spent on doping. Give the riders amnesty if they can prove the doping came from the teams funds.
Then ensure that there is a way of tracking money paid to doctors and medical staff, and for what. Ensure there is a paper trail for every treatment and every medical requirement.
Again if a rider then tests positive and he can prove that a medical staff member was involved they are given amnesty and the team suffers and so does the medical practitioner.

Take the punishment away from the riders and hit the team management and doctors and backers with the hurt. They are the ones driving the glory and they are the ones who must face the consequences if that glory is acquired by ill gotten means.

If a rider gets popped and is unable to prove it was anyone but him then fine he gets banned. But if you had riders able to get off if they could prove it wasn't their idea then how long before some of them start recording conversations or taking pictures of blood bags or drugs as evidence in case they ever get caught.

Don't tell me the people at SKY who keep ploughing money into the team and the sport of cycling think that DB really is the messiah and can do something no-one has been able to do in centuries and create natural superstar athletes able to beat doped up machines.

Of course they know but they don't care because all the publicity of the last three years has been amazing and they are lapping it up and when the bubble bursts, if it does they claim plausible deniability and walk away from the sport.

But what if Sky riders get popped and spill the beans on the team management with proof of team organised doping, then DB comes to the table and proves he had conversations which alluded to the fact the reason he needed so much money from SKY was to win the arms race.

All of a sudden the invisible money men are forced to own up to their involvement and the blood on their hands and their part in the sporting fraud.

That is my idea for how to change the sport.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings cultur

Good post Robert...
Problem is that with the huge amounts of money being made, I think the media ,UCI etc are all complicit. They can see what is going on, like you and me and Nicole Cooke. But the cash rules and I very much doubt you would hear anything. Look at Sky and Leinder's, Brailsford made His statement and that's as far as it went with the mainstream media, a few papers made a few comments but not one of them dug or tried to dig deep. Mainstream media control IMO.

Could you really see Wiggo getting busted.

How do we know that riders who do get busted are not just token gestures to make it look like something is being done about PEDs? That's my feeling.

I can't imagine on any level Sky''s top riders or DB getting busted. To much money involved. Look at the huge impact they have made. Good or bad its upped the anti and increased the media attention. Money

I know some will mention Armstrong but if something on that size happened again, say Wiggo for instance
the sport would really take a big hit ,its just not financially viable.

When its all said and done Athletes will always try and beat the system ,like it or not it's human nature and they will always find a way and IMO I don't really think the UCI etc care as long as their pockets are filling up.

You only have to look at Football and see what a sham it is when it comes to PED's.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

I am afraid the idea of changing the rules to include "anything that would give an advantage is not going to be feasible"

I wrote "using a product with the intent of gaining unfair advantage". I hope that is not my post/words that you are quoting here, misrepresenting them, throwing altitude tent and the likes in the discussion...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

Do something about the ridiculous price for testing. Testing is so expensive right now. Make it cheap as chips.

if you really wanna stop doping, forget about testing for everyone, but the absolute elite.

start testing only 10 riders one year, and only the TdF 10 contenders. And test them 3 times a week, then everystage during the TdF. Forget about everyone else.

You was 1999 all over again. but sans Armstrong.

You need to invert this Red Queen Effect, the nuclear arms race, you need the peloton to self impose self police self control self regulate.

If Armstrong was made to ride clean, do you think he would not impose some martial law on the peloton.

forget about the Giro and Classics and stages and Vuelta, and sprints.

The aim would be to invert the culture and norms which says doping is ok as long as it does not show up and you do not test positive.

You want inverted norm, self regulation. you need to start from the top. You need to test only the few who would win the tour.

and yes, if they had to ride clean, they will be finishing about 100 on GC, like Gorg Jaksche said. Jord not Gorg, Jorge with an e.

the testing regime as it stands, does not work. The ABP does not work, its more an all-points0bulletin APB that the boys in blue put out to shoot some dude from a marginalised class.

Would work, but unfortunately the T-10 would not impose something on the peloton, but fight trou courts for injustice made to them.

@RayRay. LOLZ. I see you found another member to have a fight with. How much is it now? 25? Guess your 2nd ban is in the making.

 

[ray j willings]

Foxxy if you want my autograph or signed photo just send me a PM.

cheers x

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

Re: Re:

I am afraid the idea of changing the rules to include "anything that would give an advantage is not going to be feasible"

I wrote "using a product with the intent of gaining unfair advantage". I hope that is not my post/words that you are quoting here, misrepresenting them, throwing altitude tent and the likes in the discussion...

Yes I was - An altitude tent is a product.
Epo is a product
A car is a product

you could use all three to gain an advantage.

My point is that we need to be very very careful about how to classify this
If you only mean a chemical product used within the body. I go back to my point about products used now which are not believed to provide an advantage but are later found to do so. As most medical products do fall into that category, this is why the list of products is based on known items as it is too sweeping and unmanageable to do it any other way.

Unless you want one set of rules for the top pro's and one set of rules for everyone else?

That is a completely different ball game - then you would have top amateurs getting their hands on experimental products that might push them up into the ranks of the clean pros. But as they were under a different set of rules when they made the jump and the gains you can't sanction them.

It is a worm hole to go down due to the constant advances in medicine and science.

Rob

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

Reposting to bypass OT poster infight:

Questions...

For pro-cycling's culture to change significantly from what most believe is a standstill I reckon a game changer is needed...

If you were to point out the single most crucial thing, what would/could that be?

Also.. In the OP i call for change of cyclings culture.. But is that culture even defineable as it is now?

I mean, do you think we are dealing with a culture affected/dominated (mostly) by the few or the majority?

If one can answer that question, is it useful to the hypothetical scenario of supporting -or building towards a different future for cycling?

EDIT: In short: How do you envision the first giant leap?

As with many complex issues, the simple solution is more money and manpower. Not suitpower, but more testers implementing more tests. (And, more people to make the TUE committee and actual committee...) . In fact, fire a few UCI suits now to pay for tests.

I've seen figures between $500-$1200 per urine test, depending on where the race is and where the closest lab is. (I don't know about blood tests).

The only NADO info I could find was Australia:
http://asada.gov.au/about/fees.html

Test type
Unit cost ($AUD)
Urine collection, transport and analysis
Full-screen urine test
853
Half-screen urine test
708
EPO - in-competition (standalone including a full-screen urine test)
1,291
EPO - out-of-competition (standalone including a half-screen urine test)
1,146
EPO - analysis only, on an existing collection
438
Combination urine/blood test prices (minimum eight test mission)

Test type
Unit cost ($AUD)
Full-screen urine test combined with blood profile - in hours
1,248
Half-screen urine test combined with blood profile - in hours
1,104
CERA - analysis in conjunction with an existing blood profile collection*
312
hGH - analysis in conjunction with an existing blood profile collection*
342
Insulin - analysis in conjunction with an existing blood profile collection*
371

Additional charge per urine/blood combination - out of hours
175
Combination Urine/Athlete Biological Passport (ABP) Prices Test type
Unit cost ($AUD)
Standalone half-screen urine test combined with an ABP - in hours
1,302
Standalone half-screen urine combined with an ABP - out of hours
1,461

Additional charge where ABP collection is substituted for a blood profile
117
Other testing fees and charges Test type
Unit cost ($AUD)
Missed mission fee
498
Isotope-Ratio Mass Spectrometry (IRMS) - analysis only, on an existing urine collection
1,104
Small session testing levy# (per mission)
139
Short notice call out fee (per call out)
271
Fast turn around
312
Additional time charges (per hour) - Doping Control Officers
56
Additional time charges (per hour) - Chaperones
34
Additional expenses charges - flights, accommodation, etc.
At cost
Education fees and charges Test type
Unit cost ($AUD)
Presentations (per hour) - 1st hour

533
Presentations (per hour) - additional hours
135
Additional expenses charges - flights, accommodation, etc.

At cost

I think I'm looking at about $1000 US for a urine/ABP test (I can't tell if that combination test includes the CERA, hGH and insulin tests...). So $US 1 million would get you 1000 tests, each TDF rider being tested 5 times. March-ish, June-ish, Start, post rest day 1, post rest day 2. Save the extra tests (20 tests, and more as riders abandon) for stage winners and jersey wearers.

Could 22 teams put up $50,000 each? No, that's two rider's wages. I'd put the suits who I didn't fire in charge of raising money ("This stage's clean sport assurance is brought to you by __________."). Repeat for each event.

Also, I'd put those suits in charge of more lobbying national governments and international bodies for anti-doping efforts in the civil law, as well as pushing for criminal prosecution of trafficking and possession cases.

In short, so many of the issues we face now are because of ineffectiveness, not absence. Money and manpower to make the ineffective, effective.

 

[ray j willings]

You would need to catch riders in their doping window ...Its just not going to happen. Masking agents new ways of cheating and beating the system, its a huge expensive game of banging your head against the wall.

Let them dope, get some control. No more athletes dying or doing a Ricco.

Its the same battle that governments have with recreational drugs,,, you cannot stop it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Hence my suggestion to lower the test cost. Easier than increasing funding.

 

[doperhopper]

Just to remind you, Dr. Ferrari has solved the problem of cheating years ago, let's hear The Word (and what could be his advice to The Mighty Uniballer back in 2004):

Longitudinal” competition, or racing against ourselves, should in my opinion be the primary motivation for amateur sports: every improvement, no matter how small, would equal to a victory.
In every race, instead of just one winner, there would be several.

And any cheat or illegal aid would not have reason to exist.

http://53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=44

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

I am afraid the idea of changing the rules to include "anything that would give an advantage is not going to be feasible"

I wrote "using a product with the intent of gaining unfair advantage". I hope that is not my post/words that you are quoting here, misrepresenting them, throwing altitude tent and the likes in the discussion...

Yes I was - An altitude tent is a product.
Epo is a product
A car is a product

you could use all three to gain an advantage.

My point is that we need to be very very careful about how to classify this
If you only mean a chemical product used within the body. I go back to my point about products used now which are not believed to provide an advantage but are later found to do so. As most medical products do fall into that category, this is why the list of products is based on known items as it is too sweeping and unmanageable to do it any other way.

Unless you want one set of rules for the top pro's and one set of rules for everyone else?

That is a completely different ball game - then you would have top amateurs getting their hands on experimental products that might push them up into the ranks of the clean pros. But as they were under a different set of rules when they made the jump and the gains you can't sanction them.

It is a worm hole to go down due to the constant advances in medicine and science.

Rob

So replace "product" with "substance". Duh...

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Hence my suggestion to lower the test cost. Easier than increasing funding.

+1. And I believe that it can be achieved through some "centralization" if you will. Anti-doping resources are spread out, no one has enough. Consolidating resources would reduce overhead. Reducing outsourcing to labs as well.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Just improve the tech. I posted previously about a woman who had invented new tech that slashed test time and cost, can't remember where now some thread way back in the day.

They still use the same Sysmex stuff from the 90s.

 

[mrhender]

Thanks to all contributors...

One thing I'am wondering about most suggestions..

They seem to imply trustworthy anti-doping authorities...

Hence my suggestion is to completely seperate anti-doping from the promoters of the sport..

Eliminate conflict of interest..........!

The cardinal point of course, is how to make it an attractive option for those in power to deliver?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

Thanks to all contributors...

One thing I'am wondering about most suggestions..

They seem to imply trustworthy anti-doping authorities...

Hence my suggestion is to completely seperate anti-doping from the promoters of the sport..

Eliminate conflict of interest..........!

The cardinal point of course, is how to make it an attractive option for those in power deliver that?

Definitely crucial. The UCI should only have to set up the tent for whatever NADO is providing testing.

But getting the money, if tests aren't getting cheaper anytime soon, is not something an NADO can do as effectively as the UCI. The UCI can coordinate or compel the race directors to raise the funds, or do the same with teams to pitch into a general fund. NADO's have less leverage.

It is sticky.

 

[ray j willings]

We could get the unemployed to do the testing on the minimum wage or
Instead of a 2 year ban why not introduce the death penalty.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Thanks to all contributors...

One thing I'am wondering about most suggestions..

They seem to imply trustworthy anti-doping authorities...

Hence my suggestion is to completely seperate anti-doping from the promoters of the sport..

Eliminate conflict of interest..........!

The cardinal point of course, is how to make it an attractive option for those in power to deliver?

This is where I'm on the fence:
1. I don't trust UCI not too give away doping passes, or sweep cases under the carpet.
2. I don't trust a third party either, who can be bribed, or owned by interests close to teams.
So, maybe UCI running the program, with a commission overseeing it, composed of several out of cycling individuals (enough of them so chances are at least one won't be bribed/bullied) . All being law people, i.e. judges, with a track record of honesty/integrity.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

Re: Re:

Yes I was - An altitude tent is a product.
Epo is a product
A car is a product

you could use all three to gain an advantage.

My point is that we need to be very very careful about how to classify this
If you only mean a chemical product used within the body. I go back to my point about products used now which are not believed to provide an advantage but are later found to do so. As most medical products do fall into that category, this is why the list of products is based on known items as it is too sweeping and unmanageable to do it any other way.

Unless you want one set of rules for the top pro's and one set of rules for everyone else?

That is a completely different ball game - then you would have top amateurs getting their hands on experimental products that might push them up into the ranks of the clean pros. But as they were under a different set of rules when they made the jump and the gains you can't sanction them.

It is a worm hole to go down due to the constant advances in medicine and science.

Rob[/quote]
So replace "product" with "substance". Duh...[/quote]

Sorry and that DUH is for you I assume who used Product originally when you didn't mean it. Yes

Good apology accepted

Apart from the fact you still don't answer the question of how do you guard against a substance designed for something else that is later proven to provide benefits for cyclists and may show up in someones retrospective tests.

You can't just state that every athlete has to never use medication in case it is proven as a benefit.

There goes all the asthma sufferers out of the sport
There goes anyone with an extreme allergic reaction that might require an epi pen,
There goes anyone who suffers from hay fever
There goes anyone who has ever had a kidney problem or liver problem
There goes anyone who has had a heart arrhythmia
And so the list goes on...........

Sweeping statements that exclude any substance that does or could be proven to provide a benefit gets us nowhere but wrapped up in endless law suits and confusion I'm afraid.