Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings culture thread

[ray j willings]

Re:

This post was made by ray j willings who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

...

And you are you not smart enough to give me a reply?
Who sets your morals for you? a government?

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

They really dislike it when we call people out as trolls.

Its nothing to do with trolling . You don't like it when anyone disagrees with you. Look at the post you just made
I must be stuck in your head "Must keep making child like comments every time ray j posts, he doesn't agree with me " Get over it, people have a different view.
Fact is, by your own definition. YOU ARE TROLL.

Cheers

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Let me ask you this. All those athletes that win a gold medal and get honoured and thank their parents.
Now do those parents know they have doped or have they been lying to their parents?
or do you think all those gold medals and championship wins or tour de france wins are won on pasta?
Can you answer that question without being a hypocrite?

It is irrelevant how the question is answered, as in your synopsis, you suggested it was irrelevant to you how your child would reach his goal of winning an Olympic medal. You choose the type of lessons you will teach your children, and I am merely suggesting that if you want to do so in the manner you suggest, you're free to do so. I just thought that you'd want some appropriate reading material for such a philosophy. if that offends you, maybe you need to look at yourself. Just a suggestion. But please, spare me the hypocrisy dance, as I have no incongruent messages floating around in my home regarding the subject at hand.

And please, quit blaming me for your lack of integrity. I didn't raise you.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Let me ask you this. All those athletes that win a gold medal and get honoured and thank their parents.
Now do those parents know they have doped or have they been lying to their parents?
or do you think all those gold medals and championship wins or tour de france wins are won on pasta?
Can you answer that question without being a hypocrite?

It is irrelevant how the question is answered, as in your synopsis, you suggested it was irrelevant to you how your child would reach his goal of winning an Olympic medal. You choose the type of lessons you will teach your children, and I am merely suggesting that if you want to do so in the manner you suggest, you're free to do so. I just thought that you'd want some appropriate reading material for such a philosophy. if that offends you, maybe you need to look at yourself. Just a suggestion. But please, spare me the hypocrisy dance, as I have no incongruent messages floating around in my home regarding the subject at hand.

And please, quit blaming me for your lack of integrity. I didn't raise you.

You are just avoiding the question. My question is based on the reality of pro sports.
You are trying to question my integrity. You actually don't know me.
What you do know is that I have made a valid point about the reality of pro sports and you will not answer it.
You are making assumptions that I am offended. Your attacking me because of the reality and ethics of being a pro athlete at the very top and then you babble on about hypocrisy.
The fact is I am the one who is being honest. If you have kids and they grow up to win the tour de france on pasta then I would salute you, But you know as well as I do, that's not the reality in any major sport.
My integrity is intact. I have a real world view. The fact you will not answer my question and instead attack my values and integrity [ you don't know me] shows the sort of blind ignorance that goes on in sport. People cannot face up to the HONEST TRUTH. I ask the question not to prove I am right but to make you think about the reality of pro sport.

so I ask you again can you answer this question.
All those athletes that have won a gold medal or championship event or tour de france etc , have they told their parents they have doped or have they lied to their parents?

cheers

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

so I ask you again can you answer this question.
All those athletes that have won a gold medal or championship event or tour de france etc , have they told their parents they have doped or have they lied to their parents?

Ray as someone that holds a similar view and has seen the very worst of people and the very best I can probably answer that and the truth is that most of them have lied to their parents. Why is the real question?

Most of them will have lied to themselves for so long about how it is all a level playing field and everyone is doing it and it is ok that they actually start to believe their own lies.
But when they are taken out of the comfortable life of training and competing and brought into the real world and faced with their parents they will lie. Because it will be too hard and too disappointing to their parents and to them to face up to the truth.

As for our esteemed friend Mr Wiggo well all I can say is that if their is one troll on the CN forums then in all the years I have been here it is him. And I have been on here for quite a few years. No useful content, childish immaterial puerile comments and name calling without once actually looking at an argument put forward that might disagree with his notion of the world.

While I don't disagree with a lot of what Tonton says and I have certainly done my part in a whole host of different organisations in the past to try and change the world for the better, when it comes to discussing the top level of sport unless you are going to get involved you will never change a thing. And by get involved I mean get on the Board of the cycling federations and make a change.
I did that and was on the Board of the British Triathlon Federation for a number of years in order to see the sport turned around and made into a properly run olympic sport rather than as an amateurish plaything.
At least Tonton can actually take what you have said and make an alternative argument against it.
Although I have to say I don't generally make an argument on this topic because as my previous posts are testament I don't for one second believe anyone will change the sport in any way unless they are involved in the organisations running it or the money behind it.

And as I have said before the cycling powers do not care about a few well informed people and their opinions - they only want the uninformed masses to keep idolising their national heroes and buying bikes and receiving nice paychecks from the teams.

Lastly for those of you who are taking the moral high road and stating we all have a duty to protect our children and make sure we raise them not to take PEDS and to behave perfectly and never cheat or lie or do anything that isn't right. Whilst I agree with you and I was raised that way and try to live my life that way. I am sorry to say that we live in a world where there are plenty of parents that are far too willing to live vicariously through their children and will happily do whatever it takes to get their child to the top of whatever it is and in whatever fashion.

Anyone who has run any sporting event for children will know this to be true. The parents on the sidelines are always 100 times worse than the children on the field.

As for the original topic.

Here is my honest 2 cents worth. If you really want to change the culture in cycling, join the management committee of the local cycling club, get onto a cycling federation, or get involved in organising races or teams. Because you won't do it on the internet.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings cultur

Great post robertmooreheadlane.

cheers

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

And to your point SeriousSam, the immorality is the fraud; cheating someone out of their livelihood by breaking explicit rules. Even if it is amateur competition, the immorality comes from the cheater robbing the esteem and accomplishment from their competitors who follow the rules.

Ray said change the rules and allow doping. You asserted that's a weakness of character, giving up the good fight for what's good and just. Based on that statement I inferred that you must find fault with doping beyond it being an instance of rule breaking and asked you to explain. You confirmed that, but supplied no argument as to why it is wrong (which is not the same thing as not liking it).

And now you're saying that what's wrong is that it's fraud and cheating, which owe their wrongness to being instances of rule breaking.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Let me ask you this. All those athletes that win a gold medal and get honoured and thank their parents.
Now do those parents know they have doped or have they been lying to their parents?
or do you think all those gold medals and championship wins or tour de france wins are won on pasta?
Can you answer that question without being a hypocrite?

It is irrelevant how the question is answered, as in your synopsis, you suggested it was irrelevant to you how your child would reach his goal of winning an Olympic medal. You choose the type of lessons you will teach your children, and I am merely suggesting that if you want to do so in the manner you suggest, you're free to do so. I just thought that you'd want some appropriate reading material for such a philosophy. if that offends you, maybe you need to look at yourself. Just a suggestion. But please, spare me the hypocrisy dance, as I have no incongruent messages floating around in my home regarding the subject at hand.

And please, quit blaming me for your lack of integrity. I didn't raise you.

You are just avoiding the question. My question is based on the reality of pro sports.
You are trying to question my integrity. You actually don't know me.
What you do know is that I have made a valid point about the reality of pro sports and you will not answer it.
You are making assumptions that I am offended. Your attacking me because of the reality and ethics of being a pro athlete at the very top and then you babble on about hypocrisy.
The fact is I am the one who is being honest. If you have kids and they grow up to win the tour de france on pasta then I would salute you, But you know as well as I do, that's not the reality in any major sport.
My integrity is intact. I have a real world view. The fact you will not answer my question and instead attack my values and integrity [ you don't know me] shows the sort of blind ignorance that goes on in sport. People cannot face up to the HONEST TRUTH. I ask the question not to prove I am right but to make you think about the reality of pro sport.

so I ask you again can you answer this question.
All those athletes that have won a gold medal or championship event or tour de france etc , have they told their parents they have doped or have they lied to their parents?

cheers

Either you cannot read, or you're just being a troll. I addressed a single point in your post, which related to how you are raising your children. I have no reason to answer your question, because my point isn't related to the question you posed. The reality of the sport, and your belief that you don't care how your kids reach their goals, it only matters that they reach them, are two distinct topics. I only feel the need to address the latter.

So I tell you again, how the question you pose is answered is irrelevant to the discussion in which I am engaging. That you want to move the goalposts is clear, but you'll have to do it without me because I couldn't be bothered to discuss another topic with someone with so little integrity that they would condone their child's doping to win a medal or a race.

Cheers indeed.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Let me ask you this. All those athletes that win a gold medal and get honoured and thank their parents.
Now do those parents know they have doped or have they been lying to their parents?
or do you think all those gold medals and championship wins or tour de france wins are won on pasta?
Can you answer that question without being a hypocrite?

It is irrelevant how the question is answered, as in your synopsis, you suggested it was irrelevant to you how your child would reach his goal of winning an Olympic medal. You choose the type of lessons you will teach your children, and I am merely suggesting that if you want to do so in the manner you suggest, you're free to do so. I just thought that you'd want some appropriate reading material for such a philosophy. if that offends you, maybe you need to look at yourself. Just a suggestion. But please, spare me the hypocrisy dance, as I have no incongruent messages floating around in my home regarding the subject at hand.

And please, quit blaming me for your lack of integrity. I didn't raise you.

You are just avoiding the question. My question is based on the reality of pro sports.
You are trying to question my integrity. You actually don't know me.
What you do know is that I have made a valid point about the reality of pro sports and you will not answer it.
You are making assumptions that I am offended. Your attacking me because of the reality and ethics of being a pro athlete at the very top and then you babble on about hypocrisy.
The fact is I am the one who is being honest. If you have kids and they grow up to win the tour de france on pasta then I would salute you, But you know as well as I do, that's not the reality in any major sport.
My integrity is intact. I have a real world view. The fact you will not answer my question and instead attack my values and integrity [ you don't know me] shows the sort of blind ignorance that goes on in sport. People cannot face up to the HONEST TRUTH. I ask the question not to prove I am right but to make you think about the reality of pro sport.

so I ask you again can you answer this question.
All those athletes that have won a gold medal or championship event or tour de france etc , have they told their parents they have doped or have they lied to their parents?

cheers

Either you cannot read, or you're just being a troll. I addressed a single point in your post, which related to how you are raising your children. I have no reason to answer your question, because my point isn't related to the question you posed. The reality of the sport, and your belief that you don't care how your kids reach their goals, it only matters that they reach them, are two distinct topics. I only feel the need to address the latter.

So I tell you again, how the question you pose is answered is irrelevant to the discussion in which I am engaging. That you want to move the goalposts is clear, but you'll have to do it without me because I couldn't be bothered to discuss another topic with someone with so little integrity that they would condone their child's doping to win a medal or a race.

Cheers indeed.

I think my question clearly relates to the topic in hand. Once again you are just using avoidance as you do not want to look a hypocrite by answering that question.

Now to your point , I am not going to debate with you about how I raise my sons. My original post was making a point about the morals in doping . You seem to have missed that and jumped to a whole wrath of conclusions and assumptions about me .......you don't know me.

Show me exactly where I said "I don't care how my kids reach their goals"

cheers

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

And to your point SeriousSam, the immorality is the fraud; cheating someone out of their livelihood by breaking explicit rules. Even if it is amateur competition, the immorality comes from the cheater robbing the esteem and accomplishment from their competitors who follow the rules.

Ray said change the rules and allow doping. You asserted that's a weakness of character, giving up the good fight for what's good and just. Based on that statement I inferred that you must find fault with doping beyond it being an instance of rule breaking and asked you to explain. You confirmed that, but supplied no argument as to why it is wrong (which is not the same thing as not liking it).

And now you're saying that what's wrong is that it's fraud and cheating, which owe their wrongness to being instances of rule breaking.

So you won't let me say something is immoral based on my perspective, and you won't let me define it against accepted and established standards... what in the world can qualify anything as moral or immoral in your mind? If this was some sort of Jedi mind trick to argue that morality isn't real or some other ***, congrats? You win?

Whatever point you're trying to make, I'm still going to weigh the integrity of a person along the lines I've already outlined; I'll find more value in those with it, and avoid the ones without it.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

"So you won't let me say something is immoral based on my perspective, and you won't let me define it against accepted and established standards... what in the world can qualify anything as moral or immoral in your mind? If this was some sort of Jedi mind trick to argue that morality isn't real or some other ***, congrats? You win?"

Unfortunately you are aligning yourself to some pretty horrendous samples by making that statement. Being female and being seen in public with a square inch of flesh showing is Immoral and wrong for the personal perspective of the Islamic State militants and is punished by flogging and beatings in public.

Based on your statement above that is your definition of immoral or wrong. Your perspective and against established and accepted standards. The Koran has been accepted and established as a standard and the strict rule of Sharia law as an accepted standard for centuries. We may not like it or agree with it but it is accepted as a standard in many parts of the world.

So this is the issue with your statement it is so open to interpretation as to be useless.

Doping is wrong in the rules of cycling. End of
Doping in some states is classed as sporting fraud and is therefore illegal.
In other parts of the world it is completely legal in some sports.

It is not a discussion you want to bring morals into unless you want to tie yourself up in your own entrails

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Things are getting out of hand here. I honestly have no idea where this conversation is, and where it came from.

Doping is bad. Doping apologists are bad. Allowing doping because we can't beat it is also bad. mmkay? Maybe I misunderstand the word morality. But doping is still bad. Doping apologists are still bad, and allowing doping because we can't beat it is bad. I explained why I think that already,, and I think it's silly to say that my explanation doesn't count, for... reasons.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Let me ask you this. All those athletes that win a gold medal and get honoured and thank their parents.
Now do those parents know they have doped or have they been lying to their parents?
or do you think all those gold medals and championship wins or tour de france wins are won on pasta?
Can you answer that question without being a hypocrite?

It is irrelevant how the question is answered, as in your synopsis, you suggested it was irrelevant to you how your child would reach his goal of winning an Olympic medal. You choose the type of lessons you will teach your children, and I am merely suggesting that if you want to do so in the manner you suggest, you're free to do so. I just thought that you'd want some appropriate reading material for such a philosophy. if that offends you, maybe you need to look at yourself. Just a suggestion. But please, spare me the hypocrisy dance, as I have no incongruent messages floating around in my home regarding the subject at hand.

And please, quit blaming me for your lack of integrity. I didn't raise you.

You are just avoiding the question. My question is based on the reality of pro sports.
You are trying to question my integrity. You actually don't know me.
What you do know is that I have made a valid point about the reality of pro sports and you will not answer it.
You are making assumptions that I am offended. Your attacking me because of the reality and ethics of being a pro athlete at the very top and then you babble on about hypocrisy.
The fact is I am the one who is being honest. If you have kids and they grow up to win the tour de france on pasta then I would salute you, But you know as well as I do, that's not the reality in any major sport.
My integrity is intact. I have a real world view. The fact you will not answer my question and instead attack my values and integrity [ you don't know me] shows the sort of blind ignorance that goes on in sport. People cannot face up to the HONEST TRUTH. I ask the question not to prove I am right but to make you think about the reality of pro sport.

so I ask you again can you answer this question.
All those athletes that have won a gold medal or championship event or tour de france etc , have they told their parents they have doped or have they lied to their parents?

cheers

Either you cannot read, or you're just being a troll. I addressed a single point in your post, which related to how you are raising your children. I have no reason to answer your question, because my point isn't related to the question you posed. The reality of the sport, and your belief that you don't care how your kids reach their goals, it only matters that they reach them, are two distinct topics. I only feel the need to address the latter.

So I tell you again, how the question you pose is answered is irrelevant to the discussion in which I am engaging. That you want to move the goalposts is clear, but you'll have to do it without me because I couldn't be bothered to discuss another topic with someone with so little integrity that they would condone their child's doping to win a medal or a race.

Cheers indeed.

I think my question clearly relates to the topic in hand. Once again you are just using avoidance as you do not want to look a hypocrite by answering that question.

Now to your point , I am not going to debate with you about how I raise my sons. My original post was making a point about the morals in doping . You seem to have missed that and jumped to a whole wrath of conclusions and assumptions about me .......you don't know me.

Show me exactly where I said "I don't care how my kids reach their goals"

cheers

Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust.

If you're to stupid to work out the implication of your post, again, that isn't my problem. I'm not assuming anything about you; I'm just reading your words and commenting on them. If you don't want the world to know that you believe it's okay to teach your children that integrity is a useless concept in the world of achievement, don't write things that clearly show that is your belief...but seriously, quit pretending you're something you aren't and buy them Atlas Shrugged.

Cheers yet again.

 

[Benotti69]

If cycling's culture has changed to a clean one (not a hope in hell), then there will be huge outrage at old school enabler Hein Verbruggen pursuing Paul Kimmage through a Swiss court...........

Don't hold one's breath.......

 

[mrhender]

Questions...

For pro-cycling's culture to change significantly from what most believe is a standstill I reckon a game changer is needed...

If you were to point out the single most crucial thing, what would/could that be?

Also.. In the OP i call for change of cyclings culture.. But is that culture even defineable as it is now?

I mean, do you think we are dealing with a culture affected/dominated (mostly) by the few or the majority?

If one can answer that question, is it useful to the hypothetical scenario of supporting -or building towards a different future for cycling?

EDIT: In short: How do you envision the first giant leap?

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

ChewbaccaDefense wrote:
"If you're to stupid to work out the implication of your post, again, that isn't my problem. I'm not assuming anything about you; I'm just reading your words and commenting on them. If you don't want the world to know that you believe it's okay to teach your children that integrity is a useless concept in the world of achievement, don't write things that clearly show that is your belief...but seriously, quit pretending you're something you aren't and buy them Atlas Shrugged."

Cheers yet again.[/quote]


Why are you getting angry,

Point 1, Your quote "I don't care how my kids reach their goals" I never said That. That is assumption and there is no truth in that statement what so ever. You don't know me and I can tell you that what you have said is a lie and before you make an accusation you need to make sure you have some facts.

Point 2, Now what your are implying by this quote "Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust" is that every person who has won a gold medal or been a champion or won a GT who has doped are morally depraved and have no integrity,,,,, that is nonsense and utter tripe. We are talking about sport not politics, not policeman, not banking, not soldiers in a war ,,,,,,,, Sports ,so try and get that in context of the big world.

You are saying that their parents have no morals , you are saying that the athletes themselves have no morals and you are saying that they should not be parents.

Nearly Every athlete who gets to the top Cycling, athletics. Football. whatever sport will come to a point when they have to decide weather they are going to take some PED's and compete with the very best or just stay as they are or just retire. If one of my sons got in that position then it would have to be his choice,
That does not make him a bad person , It does not mean he is uneducated, it does not mean he his going to rob someone in his spare time . It certainly does not mean that he has been raised corrupt or without morals or ethics ,,,we are dealing with pro sport .

What it does mean is that if he wants to go further then he would need to take PED's . That is the culture of sport that is how it is. Now he can take the PED's like thousands of athletes have down the years and have a very successful career in a sport he has put thousands of hours of time and work to get to where he his or he can retire. This is the culture of sport, If you want to win or compete you are going to have to dope.
You are not a professional athlete so you have not put in the hours of training and traveling and time.
So if my son at that point opted to take something then that would be his decision. I understand the culture and the needs of pro sport and doping is part of that at the elite level.

So if my son won a gold medal yes I would be proud because that does not make him or me or anyone a bad person its the culture of sport , right or wrong that's what you need to do.

Now here is a link to a list of athletes from all over the world who have doped "thousands" in alphabetical order FFS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Now you are telling me that they are all bad people with bad family's and are corrupt. You are judging all those thousands of people because you think you stand morally on higher ground "your a better person" and have not even been in that position.

I would think that most of them are decent people who forced into a situation of PED's because they have no choice or retire.

So yes I would like to see PED'S made legal , the thousands of athletes in that list show what a farce the system we have in place is . We can look after athletes and make sure they stay healthy and stop wasting all that money on testing. Athletes will always dope , you can't stop it.

So don't patronise me with your morals at least I would try and get a control of the situation.
You can carry on with your sporting ethics and integrity that in reality have never truly existed apart from the egg and spoon race at the local school . Your ideals leads to riders like Ricco nearly killing himself and others who have . They have no guidelines because peopled like you say its So wrong.

So maybe now you understand the point and if you want to keep on fighting for a drug free sport that's fine and dandy and I understand how you have come to that view but IMO its a fight that was lost from the very beginning and with sport now a financial gold mine doping is here to stay so lets at least try and keep people healthy.
cheers

 

[Netserk]

Biggest game changer would be actual re-tests done in order to catch as many as possible. If there were done a lot at the same time (targeting riders still active) and given the riders a good deal if they cooperated fully (so 1 year out instead of four if they did a chicken-like all-on-the-table confession, whereas if they didn't cooperate and another rider implicated them it'd be an 8+ years ban), I think it would be possible to gather a lot of intelligence and that could really change something. It's not enough to have a commission figure out how bad it was 20 years ago, it's the contemporary environment that needs to be exposed.

 

[mrhender]

Reposting to bypass OT poster infight:

Questions...

For pro-cycling's culture to change significantly from what most believe is a standstill I reckon a game changer is needed...

If you were to point out the single most crucial thing, what would/could that be?

Also.. In the OP i call for change of cyclings culture.. But is that culture even defineable as it is now?

I mean, do you think we are dealing with a culture affected/dominated (mostly) by the few or the majority?

If one can answer that question, is it useful to the hypothetical scenario of supporting -or building towards a different future for cycling?

EDIT: In short: How do you envision the first giant leap?

 

[Tonton]

Re: Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings cultur

First giant step: IMO has to be a strong deterrent, namely every race winner at pro level, every podium in a monument or 1 week-race, every top-5 in a GT gets 3 samples taken, one analyzed now, the other two maybe 4 and 8 years later, in addition to rest days for everybody and random out of competition testings. The message: if you dope, you will get caught. There are more steps I have in mind, but for me that would be the first one.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings cultur

First giant step: IMO has to be a strong deterrent, namely every race winner at pro level, every podium in a monument or 1 week-race, every top-5 in a GT gets 3 samples taken, one analyzed now, the other two maybe 4 and 8 years later, in addition to rest days for everybody and random out of competition testings. The message: if you dope, you will get caught. There are more steps I have in mind, but for me that would be the first one.

You will not catch many, if any from podium testing. If athletes are micro dosing they will be clean.
You would have to spend a fortune trying to catch athletes who would be spread out all over the world training and then you would have to test them hoping you have caught them in their doping window.
its not financially viable.
Be interested to hear what other steps you have in mind ....

cheers

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Do something about the ridiculous price for testing. Testing is so expensive right now. Make it cheap as chips.

 

[the delgados]

Re: Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings cultur

First giant step: IMO has to be a strong deterrent, namely every race winner at pro level, every podium in a monument or 1 week-race, every top-5 in a GT gets 3 samples taken, one analyzed now, the other two maybe 4 and 8 years later, in addition to rest days for everybody and random out of competition testings. The message: if you dope, you will get caught. There are more steps I have in mind, but for me that would be the first one.

The question then becomes what one is testing for.
I would venture to guess (wild guess) that riders are currently taking things that don't register on the list of banned substances.
No way you could retro-actively sanction a rider for a drug that wasn't on the list at the time he or she was tested.
And even if you did, the rider will have been retired a long time ago and the money long since spent (unless your name is Chris Horner; but that's another story altogether.)

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Do something about the ridiculous price for testing. Testing is so expensive right now. Make it cheap as chips.

if you really wanna stop doping, forget about testing for everyone, but the absolute elite.

start testing only 10 riders one year, and only the TdF 10 contenders. And test them 3 times a week, then everystage during the TdF. Forget about everyone else.

You was 1999 all over again. but sans Armstrong.

You need to invert this Red Queen Effect, the nuclear arms race, you need the peloton to self impose self police self control self regulate.

If Armstrong was made to ride clean, do you think he would not impose some martial law on the peloton.

forget about the Giro and Classics and stages and Vuelta, and sprints.

The aim would be to invert the culture and norms which says doping is ok as long as it does not show up and you do not test positive.

You want inverted norm, self regulation. you need to start from the top. You need to test only the few who would win the tour.

and yes, if they had to ride clean, they will be finishing about 100 on GC, like Gorg Jaksche said. Jord not Gorg, Jorge with an e.

the testing regime as it stands, does not work. The ABP does not work, its more an all-points0bulletin APB that the boys in blue put out to shoot some dude from a marginalised class.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Do something about the ridiculous price for testing. Testing is so expensive right now. Make it cheap as chips.

I would venture to compare it with VCRs and computers. Expensive until mass produced. One UCI lab, a team of 20-30 travelling testers. Fines may cover (some of the) costs.
the delgados brings up a great point: maybe the UCI definition of doping should be more general, not a list of substances as it is today (doomed to be obsolete the second it is printed), but along the lines of "using a product with the intent to gain unfair advantage". It takes several people to dope a rider: make one admit the intent.
I think it's a big deal to turn the tables on the dopers, whose credo is: time is on our side. The catch up game would be over with a massive retro-testing program.
For the retired ones who beat the system, ensuring that they have no room in cycling, no creds, TV deals to include that clause, bike companies and sponsors prohibited from using their names/services if they want to be in the pro tour. Adios Jaja.
There are ways guys, there are ways...

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Do something about the ridiculous price for testing. Testing is so expensive right now. Make it cheap as chips.

I would venture to compare it with VCRs and computers. Expensive until mass produced. One UCI lab, a team of 20-30 travelling testers. Fines may cover (some of the) costs.
the delgados brings up a great point: maybe the UCI definition of doping should be more general, not a list of substances as it is today (doomed to be obsolete the second it is printed), but along the lines of "using a product with the intent to gain unfair advantage". It takes several people to dope a rider: make one admit the intent.
I think it's a big deal to turn the tables on the dopers, whose credo is: time is on our side. The catch up game would be over with a massive retro-testing program.
For the retired ones who beat the system, ensuring that they have no room in cycling, no creds, TV deals to include that clause, bike companies and sponsors prohibited from using their names/services if they want to be in the pro tour. Adios Jaja.
There are ways guys, there are ways...

not like technology. because they always need the new tests with the new research. so the old research automatically becomes expired. So your testing modules, never age. They are always a "new product" to market. So the cost and expense structure, essentially is the same. tests wont get cheaper then, like a 15yo ipod. no, you need the new iPhone.