Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings culture thread

[mrhender]

Travis Tygart
http://www.theouterline.com/changing-pro-cycling-the-perspective-of-travis-t-tygart/

But the real measurement is not what it is doing compared to curling or badminton, but is it doing enough to give cyclists hope that they can win without having to become pathological cheaters.

Allowing the athletes to use the data means they can possibly manipulate their results to avoid detection, because they can see their own patterns and then adjust their programs to avoid detection. So there had been a long history of concerns regarding UCI under the previous leadership.

The UCI essentially controlled its own testing program, and could level charges or ignore infractions at its own discretion. We have said it many times before, but it is impossible to effectively promote a sport and police it. There is an inherent conflict.

So.... How to strip UCI of this??

 

[Bluenote]

Complicated issue.

I think it requires a multi-pronged approach.
-Reform of the IOC
-Reform of the UCI
-A truth and reconciliation commission
-Reform of legal statutes
-Coordination with law enforcement
-Updates to the WADA Code
-Getting dopers out of 'leadership' positions
-sponsor compliance
-Rider education
-Better testing

-The IOC seems oddly 'uncurious' about the UCI's role in Armstrong's doping

-How was the UCI able to cover up Armstrong's doping? Checks and balances need to be put in place

-T & R. We need to understand doping to fight it. Gathering evidence and getting crooked managers, Doctors, testers out of the sport.

-If doping, or team organized doping is criminalized as sone type of fraud, then theres more tools to fight it.

-Many of the biggest cases have come because of coordination with law enforcement.

-Update the WADA code to deal with dopers caught after years of doping, dirty managers, dirty Docs. Seeing a banned Doc should be a two year ban.

-IMHO, guys like Riis and Vino have no place in the sport.

-Sponsors profit from doped athletes. I'm not sure how you change this.

-Rider Education. The US 'war on drugs' with harsh penalties, hasn't been super effective. Educating people about the risks of drugs has some effect. Educated riders about the health risks.

-Better testing. Improve the passport to look at more than just blood. A sudden jump in watts produced, or other performance measures would be worth a shot. Its a long way off, but that's where I see testing going.

I don't think cycling will ever be 100% clean, but maybe it can be cleaner.

 

[Tonton]

-How was the UCI able to cover up Armstrong's doping? Checks and balances need to be put in place

Actually checks were put in place and they cleared...

Sorry, I couldn't resist

 

[noddy69]

Things are just as they were and will stay that way unless some people grow a set. FFS cycling news is Omerta and the clinic Paul Kimmage. Put into a corner and allowed to shout loudly but the masses don't hear. Not allowed to comment on the mainstream because even though what it's saying is true it will upset the sponsers and harm cycling.............rant over.

 

[mrhender]

I'am about to throw in the towel....

I take it this is the REAL last chance saloon....

Any late takers?

 

[pastronef]

Re:

I'am about to throw in the towel....

I take it this is the REAL last chance saloon....

Any late takers?

actually after the Giro, I fear the Tour will be even faster.
well, I don't fear, I guess. no fear about it.
I think we, forum users and twitter users, maybe can notice somenthing and hope other do so too. but the big public on the roads do not expect anything. culture change? no.
national bias is bigger than intelligence. I notice it here in Italy when the 2 big stars ride for Astana, and UK people notice that in UK with the cult of their evil Sky team, marginal gains etc etc

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

Complicated issue.

I think it requires a multi-pronged approach.
-Reform of the IOC
-Reform of the UCI
-A truth and reconciliation commission
-Reform of legal statutes
-Coordination with law enforcement
-Updates to the WADA Code
-Getting dopers out of 'leadership' positions
-sponsor compliance
-Rider education
-Better testing

-The IOC seems oddly 'uncurious' about the UCI's role in Armstrong's doping

-How was the UCI able to cover up Armstrong's doping? Checks and balances need to be put in place

-T & R. We need to understand doping to fight it. Gathering evidence and getting crooked managers, Doctors, testers out of the sport.

-If doping, or team organized doping is criminalized as sone type of fraud, then theres more tools to fight it.

-Many of the biggest cases have come because of coordination with law enforcement.

-Update the WADA code to deal with dopers caught after years of doping, dirty managers, dirty Docs. Seeing a banned Doc should be a two year ban.

-IMHO, guys like Riis and Vino have no place in the sport.

-Sponsors profit from doped athletes. I'm not sure how you change this.

-Rider Education. The US 'war on drugs' with harsh penalties, hasn't been super effective. Educating people about the risks of drugs has some effect. Educated riders about the health risks.

-Better testing. Improve the passport to look at more than just blood. A sudden jump in watts produced, or other performance measures would be worth a shot. Its a long way off, but that's where I see testing going.

I don't think cycling will ever be 100% clean, but maybe it can be cleaner.

How about making Doping legal

Dr's can monitor athletes so their health is not at risk.

Riders if there are any that are not doping will not be winning anything anyway so at least they will know were they stand among other riders and have the legal option to dope.

Fans will not feel cheated "not me I don't care" when their hero gets busted.

No need to spend a fortune/ anything on testing etc.

I have 2 sons and many will say it set's a bad precedent but I think it sets a honest precedent. If you want to become an elite athlete its a choice you will have to make or do you want to buy some quorn off Mo and pretend he's a good guy unlike his coach or team mates?

Get it in perspective. To be the best you have to be obsessed and look for every advantage, lets make it safe
and there will be no need for dodgy coaches. Lance Armstrong has not killed anyone FFS. He acted like a ass because he thought he was untouchable not because he was doping. Others were doping but he was winning.


Sponsors will get over it. People will still want to watch and sponsors will still have a reason to sponsor and without the worry about doping scandals.

Its the only way to go or you keep going round in a money pit of doping scandal exactly like we do with Drugs in society ,,,,stop fighting it, get control it 's not going away.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Stupid idea. Shows the weakness of the character suggesting it.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

Stupid idea. Shows the weakness of the character suggesting it.

if you disagree with my view then fair enough.

Explain How I AM WEAK ,,,you don't even know me so back that comment up or apologise.

Your the one who his weak and here's why. Your scared of change. You think things will get out of control.
You would rather live with dishonesty than trying to change things.
You want to sit back and let the same old sh%T happen time after time = that's weak.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Stupid idea. Shows the weakness of the character suggesting it.

if you disagree with my view then fair enough.

Explain How I AM WEAK ,,,you don't even know me so back that comment up or apologise.

Your the one who his weak and here's why. Your scared of change. You think things will get out of control.
You would rather live with dishonesty than trying to change things.
You want to sit back and let the same old sh%T happen time after time = that's weak.

You're weak because you're compromising your morals for practicality. You're weak because you're letting other people's behavior sway your definition of right and wrong. You're weak because you'd rather alienate the integrity and value of Sport than put out the effort fighting for what is right.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Stupid idea. Shows the weakness of the character suggesting it.

if you disagree with my view then fair enough.

Explain How I AM WEAK ,,,you don't even know me so back that comment up or apologise.

Your the one who his weak and here's why. Your scared of change. You think things will get out of control.
You would rather live with dishonesty than trying to change things.
You want to sit back and let the same old sh%T happen time after time = that's weak.

You're weak because you're compromising your morals for practicality. You're weak because you're letting other people's behavior sway your definition of right and wrong. You're weak because you'd rather alienate the integrity and value of Sport than put out the effort fighting for what is right.

You are weak because you a have some fantasy view that sport will be clean. You don't know me or my morals so don't assume you do.

You are weak because you are letting the behaviour and views of people dictate to you what is right and what is wrong. If your view is anti drugs then why the Fu%% do you even watch sport. It would go against your delicate principles of grown men/women taking PEDS.
Do you drink? do you know how many people die a year from drink related deaths ,,,,over 2.5 million. Get some perspective. Why don't you and your morals do something about that instead of bitching about the ethics of some of the highest paid sportsman in the world. They dope. What are you going to do about it.
You and Wada and anyone else can do Fu%% al about it that's what. So I say lets at least ,make it safe and get some control and make it honest as it can be.

"Integrity and value of sport" Laughing all the way to the bank. How old are you? a 100 .
What Fu$$ing integrity ? Look at the history of the tour for example , RIders eyeballs have been popping out for nearly a 100 years .... Your post is a joke.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

I have to say that looking at this thread and the personal vitriol in it and from the members writing it, it is clear there is a lot of feeling about this.

Equally there are some very misguided thoughts about the sport of cycling
IT IS NOT A CLEAN SPORT - Never has been and never will be.
And I am not just talking about drugs.

I am talking about riders catching trains to miss out parts of stages.
I am talking about riders and managers hiring thugs to take out there rivals and kidnap them or severely beat them so they couldn't ride
I am talking about people putting tacks in the road in small town local cycling club TT's so a particular rider would win.
I am talking about deals done to win races - before they even start.
I am talking about amounts of money being paid between teams to arrange the outcome of races before the flag drops
I am talking about corruption in the election process of officials

From the very top to the very bottom of the sport are CHEATS.
This is not about drugs it is about the sport

It is a macho, testosterone fuellued, bragging rights based sport that brings out the worst in people and does so in all forms of the sport.

You will not change the pro sport - it is a money machine now and not a sport; the same as the american entertainment sports mentioned earlier
You will not remove the drugs and cheating from amateur sport as that genie is out of the bottle and not going back.

So where are you going to find all these amazing clean principled people to run this new version once the drug cheats are all thrown out ?
Who is going to invest in a sport watching normal people struggle to ride up hills that people flew up a couple of years ago
Who is going to buy bikes from a sport which is now going 30% slower than it was 5 years ago.
Who wants to be associated with a sport whose competitors are no where near the physical specimens of other sports in the world
By the way having a sport watched by a few die hards who want a clean sport is not a viable business model.

And for those who want life time bans for first offences - News flash there is this thing called the LAW and it states that people will make mistakes and they are allowed to pay for those mistakes and be reformed and retake their place in society. Unless that crime they committed is so horrendous that they are not allowed to do so and for that you can get the death penalty or be placed on a special list which protects the people of the world around you. So if you honestly think cheating in a bike race is equivalent to being a Murderer or a Peadophile etc for which life time sentences or bans are justified. I would suggest a little bit of introflection and perspective is in order.

People can make a mistake and you have all done so in your lives, what if the next time you made a mistake someone took your livelihood from you? Think about that.

The sport is corrupt - accept it, Always has been and always will be. Just like most sports, it is one of the reasons people keep in touch with it.

The reason people watch motor sport is not to see cars racing round at stupid speeds and to go deaf, they watch it for the excitement, what generates the excitement? the fact that something could go wrong, the crashes, and I would guess that a lot of the people on here only keep going with cycling because you are waiting for the excitement of the next big bust and scandal.

And yes as you are now all crying foul and shouting at the screen, stop and think honestly deep down didn't you really log on every day to CN to see if the news headlines would be filled with someone getting busted at the Giro

Human beings want to be entertained, that is what the masses want, and have done throughout history, We as a species did watch our own kind being fed to lions and wolves for fun!!! Many around the world and on here want the entertainment of watching amazing performances, even though you know they are cheating, and you are longing for the entertainment of the next big scandal and to see who will get busted,

I am sorry to be a downer but the idea of changing the culture of cycling to rid it of cheats and corruption is like trying to take away the human spirit. Human beings and corruption have been hand in hand since we were able to live in groups, thousands of years ago.

That change is one that no government or religion or internet forum will ever change.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Stupid idea. Shows the weakness of the character suggesting it.

if you disagree with my view then fair enough.

Explain How I AM WEAK ,,,you don't even know me so back that comment up or apologise.

Your the one who his weak and here's why. Your scared of change. You think things will get out of control.
You would rather live with dishonesty than trying to change things.
You want to sit back and let the same old sh%T happen time after time = that's weak.

You're weak because you're compromising your morals for practicality. You're weak because you're letting other people's behavior sway your definition of right and wrong. You're weak because you'd rather alienate the integrity and value of Sport than put out the effort fighting for what is right.

I wrote three responses before leaving it. You nailed it succinctly, thank you.

 

[Anaconda]

Re:

And for those who want life time bans for first offences - News flash there is this thing called the LAW and it states that people will make mistakes and they are allowed to pay for those mistakes and be reformed and retake their place in society. Unless that crime they committed is so horrendous that they are not allowed to do so and for that you can get the death penalty or be placed on a special list which protects the people of the world around you. So if you honestly think cheating in a bike race is equivalent to being a Murderer or a Peadophile etc for which life time sentences or bans are justified. I would suggest a little bit of introflection and perspective is in order.

People can make a mistake and you have all done so in your lives, what if the next time you made a mistake someone took your livelihood from you? Think about that.

Just a couple points here that get used in many similar arguments that I cant see myself ever being in agreement:

Doping is no mistake made in the heat of the moment....less you can produce evidence for me of someone falling on a needle or taking a deep breath and inhaling a pill by accident. It is delibrate cold hearted act with one aim and that's to cheat. Which is breaking the rules they agreed to follow. Simple as that. Change the rules and I'd have to accept doping in pro sport... or move along.

Participation in sport is no human right. Its a privilege to play sport or its a job with a set of rules and code of conduct to follow. If lawyers can be disbarred and dr's loose there licence - athletes can be banned from organized sport for life.

A life banned cyclist can ride his bike all he wants, just not do sanctioned events. BFD! Can go get a job, walk the streets freely and life out a rich full life in society.

Life bans would change the risk/reward equation that currently does little to nothing to deter doping and cheating.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

we can't delete posts now wtf?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

A life banned cyclist can ride his bike all he wants, just not do sanctioned events. BFD! Can go get a job, walk the streets freely and life out a rich full life in society.

Life bans would change the risk/reward equation that currently does little to nothing to deter doping and cheating.

Agreed.

A life ban for a cheating cyclist does not preclude them from living a fruitful, satisfying, enriched, fulfilling life. To compare pedophile and murderer punishments with someone no longer being able to earn a living as a cyclist is ridiculous. They can still enjoy riding their bicycle.

The only issue that should be of concern when it comes to life time bans for first time offenders is a false positive.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

You're weak because you're compromising your morals for practicality. You're weak because you're letting other people's behavior sway your definition of right and wrong.

I take it that to you, what is wrong and immoral about doping is not that it contravenes the rules, but something else? What would that be?

 

[the delgados]

I would respectfully like to take issue with someone who claimed another was weak for "compromising morals for practicality."
As has been mentioned, there are no morals in sport and there never have been.
The Tour de France was created by a sadist who simply wanted to make money. The original idea was to create a race so difficult that the winner would be the only person who finished the race. He was there to generate money, not create some morality play.
Over the years, tons of poor people desperate to make a buck entered to win. Of course they were going to cheat when the rules were made by some egomaniac who liked to see others suffer for his benefit.
Sport is an always has been a spectacle; and as long as there's money to be made, doping is part of the spectacle.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'm sorry you love cheating and dopers.

 

[mrhender]

Re:

I have to say that looking at this thread and the personal vitriol in it and from the members writing it, it is clear there is a lot of feeling about this.

Yeah yeah.. A couple of heated posts and you have panned the whole thread out...

Equally there are some very misguided thoughts about the sport of cycling
IT IS NOT A CLEAN SPORT - Never has been and never will be.
And I am not just talking about drugs.

Where did anyone say it was a clean sport? Or that it could be clean?
On the contrary it is acknowledged that is will never be clean, but can be cleaner..

I am talking about riders catching trains to miss out parts of stages.
I am talking about riders and managers hiring thugs to take out there rivals and kidnap them or severely beat them so they couldn't ride
I am talking about people putting tacks in the road in small town local cycling club TT's so a particular rider would win.
I am talking about deals done to win races - before they even start.
I am talking about amounts of money being paid between teams to arrange the outcome of races before the flag drops
I am talking about corruption in the election process of officials

So...? It's not like you reveal anything new above... I think you are missing the point..
The aim is not to establish what is wrong...

From the very top to the very bottom of the sport are CHEATS.
This is not about drugs it is about the sport

It is a macho, testosterone fuellued, bragging rights based sport that brings out the worst in people and does so in all forms of the sport.

You will not change the pro sport - it is a money machine now and not a sport; the same as the american entertainment sports mentioned earlier
You will not remove the drugs and cheating from amateur sport as that genie is out of the bottle and not going back.

You are exaggerating and misrepresentating peoples arguments and points... As far as I know no one here claimed they could change things just out of the blue... It is a cycling forum for discussion -so that is what people do, and sometimes that involves speculating and laying out hypothetical scenarios.. What on earth is your problem with that? Do you come to forums just to shut down discussion/debate? How boring........

So where are you going to find all these amazing clean principled people to run this new version once the drug cheats are all thrown out ?

I dunno.. Not my idea.. But probs for finally asking something instead of just ranting with no room for discussion

Who is going to invest in a sport watching normal people struggle to ride up hills that people flew up a couple of years ago
Who is going to buy bikes from a sport which is now going 30% slower than it was 5 years ago.
Who wants to be associated with a sport whose competitors are no where near the physical specimens of other sports in the world
By the way having a sport watched by a few die hards who want a clean sport is not a viable business model.

I think there is a huge un-exploided market for sponsors that is just not avaliable because of the way Cycling has managed itself and it's image.... Mostly the sponsorship-pool is far too little in terms of numbers and money BECAUSE very few dares the risk of getting soiled by the doping........

As for the the 30%... Yet another exaggeration... Do you really think cycling will be boring just beacuse most of them stop doping? Is it not possible we would have a whole new interesting form of racing?

And for those who want life time bans for first offences - News flash there is this thing called the LAW and it states that people will make mistakes and they are allowed to pay for those mistakes and be reformed and retake their place in society. Unless that crime they committed is so horrendous that they are not allowed to do so and for that you can get the death penalty or be placed on a special list which protects the people of the world around you. So if you honestly think cheating in a bike race is equivalent to being a Murderer or a Peadophile etc for which life time sentences or bans are justified. I would suggest a little bit of introflection and perspective is in order.

People can make a mistake and you have all done so in your lives, what if the next time you made a mistake someone took your livelihood from you? Think about that.

What about those who spilled the beans who got ostracised and lost their livelihood because the sport only have room for former dopers upholding omerta... Think about it... Something has to change.. All though I agree life time bans for first offence is not the solution.. If you really did read the thread you would know my position...

The sport is corrupt - accept it, Always has been and always will be. Just like most sports, it is one of the reasons people keep in touch with it.

Yes.. We can all give up -just like you... But since you bring real life analogies in here, think about how hard some people work just so that a few less people die from hunger in Africa.. What if everyone had your approach -that it doesn't matter because you can't eradicate hunger, diseases etc... How sad the world would be...

The reason people watch motor sport is not to see cars racing round at stupid speeds and to go deaf, they watch it for the excitement, what generates the excitement? the fact that something could go wrong, the crashes, and I would guess that a lot of the people on here only keep going with cycling because you are waiting for the excitement of the next big bust and scandal.

I am not fond of scandals.. Because as i said yesterday in another thread they only serve as a faux sigh of relief (and serves the system works discourse) leaving cycling in a vacuum only waiting for the next pumped-up balloon to burst...

And yes as you are now all crying foul and shouting at the screen, stop and think honestly deep down didn't you really log on every day to CN to see if the news headlines would be filled with someone getting busted at the Giro

Maybe you should evaluate your effect on other people before telling them how it is?
I think you may be overestimating your impact

Human beings want to be entertained, that is what the masses want, and have done throughout history, We as a species did watch our own kind being fed to lions and wolves for fun!!! Many around the world and on here want the entertainment of watching amazing performances, even though you know they are cheating, and you are longing for the entertainment of the next big scandal and to see who will get busted,

You can entertain without PED's... I'am quite sure....

I am sorry to be a downer but the idea of changing the culture of cycling to rid it of cheats and corruption is like trying to take away the human spirit. Human beings and corruption have been hand in hand since we were able to live in groups, thousands of years ago.

That change is one that no government or religion or internet forum will ever change.

It's a hypothetical thought experiment... Nothing else...No one is expecting this thread to save cycling, but given the history of same what is wrong with entertaining posibilities?
It seems you have a very hard time dealing with it...
Maybe you must just learn to come to terms that not everyone is like you, or share your beliefs...

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

You're weak because you're compromising your morals for practicality. You're weak because you're letting other people's behavior sway your definition of right and wrong.

I take it that to you, what is wrong and immoral about doping is not that it contravenes the rules, but something else? What would that be?

In short, no. I don't want to watch a doping competition. A little harder to define specifically, but I want to watch a competition of the best combination of talent, tactics, and fitness/training/practice. That doping blurs who is actually the best at those things, makes it much harder to enjoy an athletic competition much harder to enjoy.

More importantly, it makes it much harder to be a competitor. I am much less interested in measuring my dope-response against someone else's dope-response. I do however, want to see if I put together and implemented a better training plan/race strategy than the other guy.

I am not a philosopher, and won't go down a road of trying to find the roots of my morality.

 

[Anaconda]

Re:

I would respectfully like to take issue with someone who claimed another was weak for "compromising morals for practicality."
As has been mentioned, there are no morals in sport and there never have been.
The Tour de France was created by a sadist who simply wanted to make money. The original idea was to create a race so difficult that the winner would be the only person who finished the race. He was there to generate money, not create some morality play.
Over the years, tons of poor people desperate to make a buck entered to win. Of course they were going to cheat when the rules were made by some egomaniac who liked to see others suffer for his benefit.
Sport is an always has been a spectacle; and as long as there's money to be made, doping is part of the spectacle.

That is one side of cycle sport, but there are many other sides. And some that actually people find enriching rather than just simple cheap entertainment. And that's what is worth protecting. Kids emulate their heros and that is one very good reason to me to fight against those who break the rules and thus against doping in sport.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

You're weak because you're compromising your morals for practicality. You're weak because you're letting other people's behavior sway your definition of right and wrong.

I take it that to you, what is wrong and immoral about doping is not that it contravenes the rules, but something else? What would that be?

In short, no. I don't want to watch a doping competition. A little harder to define specifically, but I want to watch a competition of the best combination of talent, tactics, and fitness/training/practice. That doping blurs who is actually the best at those things, makes it much harder to enjoy an athletic competition much harder to enjoy.

More importantly, it makes it much harder to be a competitor. I am much less interested in measuring my dope-response against someone else's dope-response. I do however, want to see if I put together and implemented a better training plan/race strategy than the other guy.

I am not a philosopher, and won't go down a road of trying to find the roots of my morality.

I was expecting something about how doping forces other athletes to take health risks they don't want to take (despite doping being reasonably safe , and despite that reasoning also applying, to a greater degree even, to aspects of cycling that are tolerated, like descending), which would at least constitute an argument as to why it's immoral, if not a successful one. You haven't give any reason why you consider it immoral, you've stated a preference. All you've done is explained that you don't like it. Confusing dislike with an argument that demonstrates something is immoral is a common mistake. Learned that in one of the many philosophy classes I took.

Fwiw, I share your preference. If we could write the rules of the sport, we would then make it against the rules. That would make it immoral.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

I would respectfully like to take issue with someone who claimed another was weak for "compromising morals for practicality."
As has been mentioned, there are no morals in sport and there never have been.
The Tour de France was created by a sadist who simply wanted to make money. The original idea was to create a race so difficult that the winner would be the only person who finished the race. He was there to generate money, not create some morality play.
Over the years, tons of poor people desperate to make a buck entered to win. Of course they were going to cheat when the rules were made by some egomaniac who liked to see others suffer for his benefit.
Sport is an always has been a spectacle; and as long as there's money to be made, doping is part of the spectacle.

That is one side of cycle sport, but there are many other sides. And some that actually people find enriching rather than just simple cheap entertainment. And that's what is worth protecting. Kids emulate their heros and that is one very good reason to me to fight against those who break the rules and thus against doping in sport.

Good pic, and a reminder of what cycling is all about. It starts with kids. That explains why the "allowing doping" argument will provoke heated reactions. Allow doping, then the question becomes: at what age should they start injecting crap in their system? It starts with kids, with kids dreaming, and it's unfortunate that the powers that be (UCI first) forget that. Cleaning the sport should be THE priority, so kids can pursue their dreams and if good enough can live them. Without having to cheat, without having to put their health at risk. And anticipating the "doping is safe" imbecility, I would refer to late '80s EPO guinea pigs.

 

[the delgados]

Re:

I'm sorry you love cheating and dopers.

I don't know who this is directed toward, but if it's me, you are wrong. I don't love cheating and dopers.
I am indifferent.