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"Making the race" or Getting on the podium

Whats more Important "making the race" or "winning the race"

  • Win the race

    Votes: 13 52.0%
  • Make the race

    Votes: 14 56.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
Feb 23, 2011
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There seems to be loads of riding on the front and useless attacks these days from a lot of top teams who end up with a bunch of exhausted riders in the finale's of big races.

Why waste loads of energy "making the race", when surely you would be better of conserving energy to use in the finale?

DS's love to extol the virtues of having "made the race" when their riders have come nowhere.
 
B_Ugli said:
There seems to be loads of riding on the front and useless attacks these days from a lot of top teams who end up with a bunch of exhausted riders in the finale's of big races.

Why waste loads of energy "making the race", when surely you would be better of conserving energy to use in the finale?

DS's love to extol the virtues of having "made the race" when their riders have come nowhere.

Make the race, but give us some examples.
 
B_Ugli said:
There seems to be loads of riding on the front and useless attacks these days from a lot of top teams who end up with a bunch of exhausted riders in the finale's of big races.

Why waste loads of energy "making the race", when surely you would be better of conserving energy to use in the finale?

DS's love to extol the virtues of having "made the race" when their riders have come nowhere.
Are you talking about the same professional cycling I am watching? Where the hell are these mythical lot of teams that attack so much that their guys end up exhausted? :confused:
 
Feb 6, 2016
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I'm confused. The poll implies constant attacks like La Vie Claire or Astana 2015, but the OP seems to refer to teams like Sky or EQS (in the classics) that ride tempo at the front of the bunch. Which is it?
 
How in hell exactly do you expect the vast majority of teams and riders to win the race or make the podium (two very different things, by the way) without "making the race" and taking their chances early?
 
Mar 15, 2016
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Secure funding, permissions and planning of an event that attracts top teams/riders and lots of spectators (local and broadcast) alike?

Definitely make the race.
 
It's about advertising the sponsors. The leaders and those doing 'interesting things' get the media coverage.

Sure, getting 'last 3 minutes' and podium coverage is good, but a sponsor is also happy to see and here about the team/jersey during the preceeding 4 hours.

The most popular 'grease' for the pros is sponsor $$ - and the sponsor expects media attention.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.
 
Mar 13, 2015
2,637
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Re:

Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
 
Re: Re:

Mr.White said:
Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
But it has to be said that some pathetic riders like Valverde, will gladly ride defensively to lose a race (2nd or 3rd place).

It's about winning, not placing well.
 
Re: Re:

Netserk said:
Mr.White said:
Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
But it has to be said that some pathetic riders like Valverde, will gladly ride defensively to lose a race (2nd or 3rd place).

It's about winning, not placing well.

The best rider in 2014 and 2015? K.
 
Mar 13, 2015
2,637
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0
Re: Re:

Netserk said:
Mr.White said:
Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
But it has to be said that some pathetic riders like Valverde, will gladly ride defensively to lose a race (2nd or 3rd place).

It's about winning, not placing well.

Maybe you should enlighten him, so he could win much more. He just wins so rarely...
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Netserk said:
Mr.White said:
Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
But it has to be said that some pathetic riders like Valverde, will gladly ride defensively to lose a race (2nd or 3rd place).

It's about winning, not placing well.

The best rider in 2014 and 2015? K.

The rider in the peloton that - excluding a handful of elite sprinters - has the most pro wins. Obviously tactically inept :rolleyes:
 
Aug 31, 2012
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It might be shocking for some posters here, but Valverde, like most riders, fans, teams and sponsors, doesn't have lexicographic preferences and assigns a non-zero value to outcomes other than winning the race.

Whilst even performance independent of race outcome matters, the podium is almost always preferable to a rider than having been an entertaining but hapless gladiator.
 
depends on perspective. for riders podium placing obviously matter a lot, otherwise 99.9% pros should quit cycling once and for all if valverde appears to be a pathetic rider. from fans' perspective opinions vary, still most of fans prefer riders to make a race imo.
 
For the majority of the péloton "making the race" is their most realistic approach for victory, because if everybody sat in and conserved energy and the strongest won at the last every day it'd be a pretty boring sport. You also don't take into account different team's goals. A lot of teams realistically cannot expect victory, and therefore have the combination of constant attacks hoping they get into the right move that either the bunch miscalculates or, especially in stage races, allows to go as it's not a threat, and the knowingly-pointless day-long escapades that get the sponsor value for money (take Andalucía-CajaSur riders like José António López Gil, Jesús Rosendo or Javier Abeja who would often get the call to go out alone, because that day the team had nobody viable to win but they still wanted to get the team to be a talking point. But those are the only times somebody goes out solely to make the race, not trying to make the race as their main plan for winning it.

Of course it helps when you're a multi-talent like Sagan, Valverde, Gilbert, Bettini, van Avermaet, or even those rouleur/sprinter hybrids like Kristoff, as you can both win the race (well, place well in it in van Avermaet's case of course) by making it or win the race by sitting on depending on the day. But those types of riders are few in number. There are a lot of riders who have thrown away a large amount of their potential results because of a fear of exhausting themselves making moves. Dan Martin is an example of a guy who has done the opposite. He's won two monuments, and especially Lombardia was because he was the only gambler left (except maybe Wellens who had already played his cards). The only time he's actually been the strongest in a monument was the derided 2014 LBL where he crashed on the final corner. Gerrans has maximised his palmarès in some ways by being the poster boy for negative racing, which is one thing, but he's also paid the price (notoriously in Ponferrada) for the fact that his racing strategy requires others to race just as negatively, so when they don't and he refuses to contribute - then moans in the press that he had the legs but didn't get to sprint for the win - he gets rightly criticized. Valverde garners a lot of criticism because in the biggest races he becomes quite negative, but in smaller races he is often one of the prime agitators; he is able to get away with it to a great extent because his sprint-from-the-climb-reduced-bunch/sprint-on-a-hill is almost unparalleled in recent years.

Or think about the great show that was the Giro '74. We think of that final week as being a duel between Fuente and Merckx from a lot of the footage, but the real threats to Eddy were Baronchelli and Gimondi; Fuente was only 5th overall, but he was increasingly desperately trying to win back the time he lost in Sanremo, and since climbing was the only area he held the cards, long-distance solo climbing raids were his only stylistic choice. He made the race and his escapades are in many circumstances more fondly remembered than how close the battle for the GC actually got towards the end.
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
For the majority of the péloton "making the race" is their most realistic approach for victory, because if everybody sat in and conserved energy and the strongest won at the last every day it'd be a pretty boring sport. You also don't take into account different team's goals. A lot of teams realistically cannot expect victory, and therefore have the combination of constant attacks hoping they get into the right move that either the bunch miscalculates or, especially in stage races, allows to go as it's not a threat, and the knowingly-pointless day-long escapades that get the sponsor value for money (take Andalucía-CajaSur riders like José António López Gil, Jesús Rosendo or Javier Abeja who would often get the call to go out alone, because that day the team had nobody viable to win but they still wanted to get the team to be a talking point. But those are the only times somebody goes out solely to make the race, not trying to make the race as their main plan for winning it.

Of course it helps when you're a multi-talent like Sagan, Valverde, Gilbert, Bettini, van Avermaet, or even those rouleur/sprinter hybrids like Kristoff, as you can both win the race (well, place well in it in van Avermaet's case of course) by making it or win the race by sitting on depending on the day. But those types of riders are few in number. There are a lot of riders who have thrown away a large amount of their potential results because of a fear of exhausting themselves making moves. Dan Martin is an example of a guy who has done the opposite. He's won two monuments, and especially Lombardia was because he was the only gambler left (except maybe Wellens who had already played his cards). The only time he's actually been the strongest in a monument was the derided 2014 LBL where he crashed on the final corner. Gerrans has maximised his palmarès in some ways by being the poster boy for negative racing, which is one thing, but he's also paid the price (notoriously in Ponferrada) for the fact that his racing strategy requires others to race just as negatively, so when they don't and he refuses to contribute - then moans in the press that he had the legs but didn't get to sprint for the win - he gets rightly criticized. Valverde garners a lot of criticism because in the biggest races he becomes quite negative, but in smaller races he is often one of the prime agitators; he is able to get away with it to a great extent because his sprint-from-the-climb-reduced-bunch/sprint-on-a-hill is almost unparalleled in recent years.

Or think about the great show that was the Giro '74. We think of that final week as being a duel between Fuente and Merckx from a lot of the footage, but the real threats to Eddy were Baronchelli and Gimondi; Fuente was only 5th overall, but he was increasingly desperately trying to win back the time he lost in Sanremo, and since climbing was the only area he held the cards, long-distance solo climbing raids were his only stylistic choice. He made the race and his escapades are in many circumstances more fondly remembered than how close the battle for the GC actually got towards the end.
Waw. :) :) :) :) :) nice post
 
I think the Pais Vasco is a good example of how things are right now in terms of GC-riding (classics have been a great show so far IMO). I know those climbs aren't super hard, but stages 3 and 4 didn't create any gaps at all since the risk is too great to attack from afar (or just more than kilometre out) when you have a team like Sky pacing. If thats bad stage making or whatever, I dont know (honestly dont think so), but it have gotten increasingly more hard to race aggressively to win the overall race by medium long range attacks. I don't think its because riders don't want, we have riders like Contador and Aru who always shoots when its possible, its just how it is. The level is higher and more even, the domestiques are better and the second and third tier riders aren't all that far of, especially not in the one week stage races.

Its obvious, every cycling-fan in the world wants to see riders make the race, but you have to have perfect circumstances (route, weather, domestics and the right protagonists).
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
Partially. I think part of it is team size, and in the case of PV, also the tt being so uber climby

But the teams have always been this way, its obvious that if you reduce team size, you will have a more uncontrollable race. And I dont think the ITT being a MTT necessarily is the problem, a lot of riders know they won't have a change anyways - and some attacked - but were easily wheeled in and we got the 500 metres sprint again at Aia which we also did at Amurrio. Many times its also just boiling down to the big stars, how good and confident are they, this year in Pais Vasco, Quintana and Contador are IMO a little below what expected