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"Making the race" or Getting on the podium

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Whats more Important "making the race" or "winning the race"

  • Win the race

    Votes: 13 52.0%
  • Make the race

    Votes: 14 56.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
Mar 13, 2015
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Valv.Piti said:
I think the Pais Vasco is a good example of how things are right now in terms of GC-riding (classics have been a great show so far IMO). I know those climbs aren't super hard, but stages 3 and 4 didn't create any gaps at all since the risk is too great to attack from afar (or just more than kilometre out) when you have a team like Sky pacing. If thats bad stage making or whatever, I dont know (honestly dont think so), but it have gotten increasingly more hard to race aggressively to win the overall race by medium long range attacks. I don't think its because riders don't want, we have riders like Contador and Aru who always shoots when its possible, its just how it is. The level is higher and more even, the domestiques are better and the second and third tier riders aren't all that far of, especially not in the one week stage races.

Its obvious, every cycling-fan in the world wants to see riders make the race, but you have to have perfect circumstances (route, weather, domestics and the right protagonists).

Nah, favorites are just too conservative. Nobody believes he's the strongest, everybody waits for the TT. If Contador is in his 2014 shape, you would see totally different race. Henao is probably the strongest, but he's too cautious. Maybe because last year, where he also looked the strongest but tired himself a little in that Arrate stage and then eventually lost to Purito in the TT.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
Red Rick said:
Partially. I think part of it is team size, and in the case of PV, also the tt being so uber climby

But the teams have always been this way, its obvious that if you reduce team size, you will have a more uncontrollable race. And I dont think the ITT being a MTT necessarily is the problem, a lot of riders know they won't have a change anyways - and some attacked - but were easily wheeled in and we got the 500 metres sprint again at Aia which we also did at Amurrio. Many times its also just boiling down to the big stars, how good and confident are they, this year in Pais Vasco, Quintana and Contador are IMO a little below what expected

Yeah, but now that tt is so hilly, henao can actally sit back on his terrain and hope he nails the tt. Quintana the same, though he prefers the high mountains. If the tt were flat, even Contador would have to attack to put time into all the rest of the riders who are now still less than 30s back
 
I think there's also an element of familiarity - riders know Aia now, so maybe they're not getting as taken apart by it as they were in 2008 and 2010 when it first appeared; they know where to dose efforts, where is best to attack, so they're watching each other in those parts and everybody has the same idea. At the same time, sometimes this happens. In 2011 there was a frustratingly uncharacteristically flat route and the pace on Arrate was high and attacks neutralized ahead of the TT and about ten riders crested it together; but 2012 was a much better race than it should have been given a fairly tame route. I have faith in the Itzulia, they'll have something up their sleeve for next time. Maybe this idea didn't really work, but they'll try something else next time around. Maybe double Arrate/Ixua using this new side, but earlier in the race (I think the Arrate stage being before the Aia stage would have been better, personally, as here people are waiting for the two Eibar stages; then, the Aia stage comes after the time gaps are already opened up).
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
SKSemtex said:
Waw. :) :) :) :) :) nice post
At no point that I recall have I ever denied his talent.
Exactly the way I feel about a certain CR7. I can't stand him as a person, but I can't deny he's one of the finest footballers to ever grace a football pitch. If you were to design an attacking player in a laboratory, chances are he would come out looking like CR7.

Sagan has similar traits of arrogance, and I couldn't stand him a few years back, but he's not as bad as he used to be, but still over the top. His racing style though I really like. He livens up the races and is a joy to watch on the bike (except for his beard and hair as of recently, not a fan of that).
 
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Mr.White said:
Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing

I like your answer, but Iam not sure about this imprtant question in cycling. results are important, but remains in fans mind or to be a main character is a well publicity for teams. The goal is to win, and I always enjoy when someone do the best with his abilities to have the better results possible, but I enjoy as well if someone take risk, and it is what fans have to ask

But what I have for sure is that, if we like or not, we cant critize when a rider or team dont take risk and dont attack a day becouse consider is the bet for him. Maybe we must critize pais Vasco organizers to put the ITT the last day. But of course we have to aplaude more when someone take risk. But, for instance, and I use Contador againbecouse heis the reference in cycling the last years, thoe stupid attack he did last Tour just to say I attacked, when he didnt feel very well, just for fans, has no sense. I meanto take risk if you follow and estrategy and you consider you can get your objetive and didnt rissk too much. Victory is important, but not just victory counts.

They must look anyway for the spectacle, becoue without spectacle there is no cycling, so they have to thing that if organizers put Tourmalet at 50 Km of the finish and flat later, someone has to do something, good for his interest or no, becouse it is an insult to the climb and to all the people who is expecting something.

But the prpblem in this Pais Vasco is that even people as crdock think that they can win the overall with a gopod day in the ITT. and other problem is that there are tto strong teams, as SKY, and that is not the best for cycling. becouse they can smash a Çradock attack very easy.
 
But sometimes it works. Remember how Levi snubbed Cunego of the 2011 Tour de Suisse? Cunego made that race, but in the end Levi won back two minutes in that TT to win the race by 4 seconds. That was one of the great misfortunes of my lifetime, but Levi did that throughout his career and it was his way to win races, it just wasn't fun to watch.
 
I think one example of someone who was too willing to make the race was Bettini. If he conserved energy he was pretty much guaranteed to win a reduced group sprint and yet he often couldn't help himself but start attacking and chasing down attacks with 30k to go. It's interesting that he won his two WCs by taking a different approach and hiding for the most of the race.
 
Which angle of view? Different from owner, sponsor, rider, fan.

I can speak only for myself as a fan.

1. make the race - win the race
2. make the race - get podium
3. make the race - the way to win it but get beaten on the end
4. make the race -the way just to disrail Sky train 2012-2014 apart (nothing personal against Sky here - actually I like them very much now)
4. make th race - the way you blow peloton apart
4. win the race - having the nose 100 m in the wind

I would prefer anytime Sagan´s 2015 TDF to his 2013 or 2012 one.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Libertine Seguros said:
For the majority of the péloton "making the race" is their most realistic approach for victory, because if everybody sat in and conserved energy and the strongest won at the last every day it'd be a pretty boring sport. You also don't take into account different team's goals. A lot of teams realistically cannot expect victory, and therefore have the combination of constant attacks hoping they get into the right move that either the bunch miscalculates or, especially in stage races, allows to go as it's not a threat, and the knowingly-pointless day-long escapades that get the sponsor value for money (take Andalucía-CajaSur riders like José António López Gil, Jesús Rosendo or Javier Abeja who would often get the call to go out alone, because that day the team had nobody viable to win but they still wanted to get the team to be a talking point. But those are the only times somebody goes out solely to make the race, not trying to make the race as their main plan for winning it.

Of course it helps when you're a multi-talent like Sagan, Valverde, Gilbert, Bettini, van Avermaet, or even those rouleur/sprinter hybrids like Kristoff, as you can both win the race (well, place well in it in van Avermaet's case of course) by making it or win the race by sitting on depending on the day. But those types of riders are few in number. There are a lot of riders who have thrown away a large amount of their potential results because of a fear of exhausting themselves making moves. Dan Martin is an example of a guy who has done the opposite. He's won two monuments, and especially Lombardia was because he was the only gambler left (except maybe Wellens who had already played his cards). The only time he's actually been the strongest in a monument was the derided 2014 LBL where he crashed on the final corner. Gerrans has maximised his palmarès in some ways by being the poster boy for negative racing, which is one thing, but he's also paid the price (notoriously in Ponferrada) for the fact that his racing strategy requires others to race just as negatively, so when they don't and he refuses to contribute - then moans in the press that he had the legs but didn't get to sprint for the win - he gets rightly criticized. Valverde garners a lot of criticism because in the biggest races he becomes quite negative, but in smaller races he is often one of the prime agitators; he is able to get away with it to a great extent because his sprint-from-the-climb-reduced-bunch/sprint-on-a-hill is almost unparalleled in recent years.

Or think about the great show that was the Giro '74. We think of that final week as being a duel between Fuente and Merckx from a lot of the footage, but the real threats to Eddy were Baronchelli and Gimondi; Fuente was only 5th overall, but he was increasingly desperately trying to win back the time he lost in Sanremo, and since climbing was the only area he held the cards, long-distance solo climbing raids were his only stylistic choice. He made the race and his escapades are in many circumstances more fondly remembered than how close the battle for the GC actually got towards the end.

Excellent post which sums up a lot of what I think.

If you take Flanders as an example Sagan was strong there is no doubt. However he rode a tactically astute race, conserved his energy carefully and as others have noted did a one on one time trial against Cancellara in the dying kilometres. When he made the bridge to Kwiatkowski I thought he looked to be struggling but between then and his final effort he held enough in the tank to make that final push. Kwiatkowski however faded along with Van Steenburgh and others.

Sky and QS should have had a guy in the early break to take the pressure off them to chase and to get them their TV exposure - they didn't. Instead QS took it up from quite a long way out and by the time the finale came and they realised they had missed the boat they fired Van Steenburgh down the road but by then it was too little to late.

The two protagonists Sagan and Cancellara simply had to sit back while other teams wasted themselves on the front.

Don't get me wrong I like to see an exciting race as much as the next bloke but sticking your team on the front for km after km is not making the race despite what Patrick Lefevre may think. I think he did have a strong team on the day but they just rode foolishly.

I read something this week on cyclingnews where Sky talk of "making the race" at Roubaix. What's that all about, they haven't even won a monument yet and they want to "make the race"??? Surely you walk before you can run??

Einstein on Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

Some of these teams do exactly that.

Chapeau to the guys like Sagan and Cancellara who use their brains and let these teams waste themselves before taking full advantage. Others have commented on Valverde - again a tactically astute rider who knows when to make his move at the right time when he is outgunned.
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Netserk said:
Mr.White said:
Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
But it has to be said that some pathetic riders like Valverde, will gladly ride defensively to lose a race (2nd or 3rd place).

It's about winning, not placing well.

The best rider in 2014 and 2015? K.

Perfect rider in 2014 and 2015? You can be the best rider and still have stuff to learn. Are you seriously denying that Valverde wouldn't have more wins in his career if he didn't settle for the podium?
 
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B_Ugli said:
I read something this week on cyclingnews where Sky talk of "making the race" at Roubaix. What's that all about, they haven't even won a monument yet and they want to "make the race"??? Surely you walk before you can run??
That's the only chance they've got to win the race. And the only tactic that has worked in a classic for them so far (remember E3? or Omloop last year?). I don't really see your point here.

B_Ugli said:
Chapeau to the guys like Sagan and Cancellara who use their brains and let these teams waste themselves before taking full advantage. Others have commented on Valverde - again a tactically astute rider who knows when to make his move at the right time when he is outgunned.
Sagan and Cancellara are actually good examples of riders making the race in most cases. They win because they're often the strongest riders, not (only) because other teams waste themselves.
 
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PremierAndrew said:
Valv.Piti said:
Netserk said:
Mr.White said:
Netserk said:
It's all about winning. Duh.

It's a professional bike race, not some amateur event.

Making the race has no value in itself (for the cyclist), at least normatively. The value it has, is solely derived from the increase in winning chance.



So to sum up: Praise Gerrans for MSR '12, call him out for WCRR '14.

Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
But it has to be said that some pathetic riders like Valverde, will gladly ride defensively to lose a race (2nd or 3rd place).

It's about winning, not placing well.

The best rider in 2014 and 2015? K.

Perfect rider in 2014 and 2015? You can be the best rider and still have stuff to learn. Are you seriously denying that Valverde wouldn't have more wins in his career if he didn't settle for the podium?
I think the point was that it was pretty ridiculous to call out Valverde specifically - a rider who has won more than 99.9% of the peloton. Of course he makes mistakes and loses races that he could potentially have won - like everyone else - but, unlike everyone else, he also wins loads. Poor example to label as pathetic and defensive.

It reminds me of San Sebastian last year when a lot of people were criticising Valverde for not chasing down Yates in the finale. Despite the fact a) he wouldn't have won if he'd have just towed a group to the line, particularly given how tired he must have been after the TDF. And b) he was with a bunch of riders like Uran, Mollema, Martin who rarely or never win - and they for some reason escaped much criticism for not working.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Re: Re:

SafeBet said:
B_Ugli said:
I read something this week on cyclingnews where Sky talk of "making the race" at Roubaix. What's that all about, they haven't even won a monument yet and they want to "make the race"??? Surely you walk before you can run??
That's the only chance they've got to win the race. And the only tactic that has worked in a classic for them so far (remember E3? or Omloop last year?). I don't really see your point here.

B_Ugli said:
Chapeau to the guys like Sagan and Cancellara who use their brains and let these teams waste themselves before taking full advantage. Others have commented on Valverde - again a tactically astute rider who knows when to make his move at the right time when he is outgunned.
Sagan and Cancellara are actually good examples of riders making the race in most cases. They win because they're often the strongest riders, not (only) because other teams waste themselves.

1. Attacking at the right time and making it stick (or come close) is making the race. Riding tempo on the front all day when your team has missed the boat/or for no apparent reason other than to show how "strong" you are is not making the race.

2.Agreed on Sagan and Cancellara - I think there is a distinction here and you have hit the nail on the head. Making the race is making the right effort at the right time or at least a strategy with some reasonable prospect of success having read the race demographic in real time. Making the race is not wasting your team on the front for hours on end when you have (a) failed to get a guy in the early break (thus taking the pressure off) or (b) just sticking your team on the front for "show off" effect or to show how "strong" you are. The point is that lots of teams indulge in (b) with no result at the end and they do it week in week out expecting a different result. To indulge in (b) and claim you have "made the race" is total BS.
 
What's with this obsession with saving domestiques for the finale? 90% of the time, what we see is whole teams being wasted not because they were used up too soon, but because they didn't play their cards when they could still contribute.
 
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B_Ugli said:
1. Attacking at the right time and making it stick (or come close) is making the race. Riding tempo on the front all day when your team has missed the boat/or for no apparent reason other than to show how "strong" you are is not making the race.
But that's not how Sky has won the Classics I mentioned.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
PremierAndrew said:
Valv.Piti said:
Netserk said:
Mr.White said:
Ecactly! "Making the race" is for the fans. Riding smart and to your strengths, that's the thing
But it has to be said that some pathetic riders like Valverde, will gladly ride defensively to lose a race (2nd or 3rd place).

It's about winning, not placing well.

The best rider in 2014 and 2015? K.

Perfect rider in 2014 and 2015? You can be the best rider and still have stuff to learn. Are you seriously denying that Valverde wouldn't have more wins in his career if he didn't settle for the podium?
I think the point was that it was pretty ridiculous to call out Valverde specifically - a rider who has won more than 99.9% of the peloton. Of course he makes mistakes and loses races that he could potentially have won - like everyone else - but, unlike everyone else, he also wins loads. Poor example to label as pathetic and defensive.

It reminds me of San Sebastian last year when a lot of people were criticising Valverde for not chasing down Yates in the finale. Despite the fact a) he wouldn't have won if he'd have just towed a group to the line, particularly given how tired he must have been after the TDF. And b) he was with a bunch of riders like Uran, Mollema, Martin who rarely or never win - and they for some reason escaped much criticism for not working.
Please...

Is there anything in cycling more pathetic than when a rider is so happy to have lost that he starts to cry? :eek:

http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/tour-de-francia/tdp-declas-valverde-250715/3227111/
 
Define lost, Netserk. Valverde's ceiling at 35 y/o against the 4 best GT-riders by miles in the world isn't a win, put a podium at the very best. A race where he has had incredibly misfortunate his whole career. Valverde has always preferred the Tour de France, its the biggest race, against the biggest competitors, and Valverde being one of the truly greats (if the the greatest) over the last 10-12 years, wants to silent the haters and finally do well. He got his podium, but somehow, the critique has even picked up after that outstanding performance. In a year where he also picked up La Flèche and La Doyenne.

Its getting ridicolous
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Re: Re:

SafeBet said:
B_Ugli said:
1. Attacking at the right time and making it stick (or come close) is making the race. Riding tempo on the front all day when your team has missed the boat/or for no apparent reason other than to show how "strong" you are is not making the race.
But that's not how Sky has won the Classics I mentioned.

I know and those were smashing races to watch. The same applies to the classics that QS has one in the past - looking back through the dominance of Patrick L's squads over the years in the montage to Roubaix on CN today is testament to that.

I just think that this whole modern cycling "tempo off" between teams is nothing but showing off about how strong each other are and guys like Lefevre delude themselves when going away with nothing on the day that they were "making the race".
 
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Valv.Piti said:
Define lost, Netserk. Valverde's ceiling at 35 y/o against the 4 best GT-riders by miles in the world isn't a win, put a podium at the very best. A race where he has had incredibly misfortunate his whole career. Valverde has always preferred the Tour de France, its the biggest race, against the biggest competitors, and Valverde being one of the truly greats (if the the greatest) over the last 10-12 years, wants to silent the haters and finally do well. He got his podium, but somehow, the critique has even picked up after that outstanding performance. In a year where he also picked up La Flèche and La Doyenne.

Its getting ridicolous

+100

Valverde is one of the best all-rounders throwing his leg over a bike. Wins a classic, a monument and podiums le Tour in one season and gets called disparaging names? It borders on incredulous.
 
What is Valverde to do then, go all out attacking from 70km to go when it is almost certain to fail and throw away his biggest chances of GC success?

He rode to his strengths and it was only enough for a 3rd place. What was a travesty in that Tour was how Movistar were reluctant to use up Valverde to try and win the race with Quintana. But for the sake of Valverde himself, he rode to the maximum of his abilities GC-wise and got himself on the podium. I think that's a very good result considering what's his forte. The reason he has been able to win a Vuelta is because the race design favors him much more than the other GTs do, and also Cadel Evans being completely rekt by the race organizers.
 
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Carols said:
Valv.Piti said:
Define lost, Netserk. Valverde's ceiling at 35 y/o against the 4 best GT-riders by miles in the world isn't a win, put a podium at the very best. A race where he has had incredibly misfortunate his whole career. Valverde has always preferred the Tour de France, its the biggest race, against the biggest competitors, and Valverde being one of the truly greats (if the the greatest) over the last 10-12 years, wants to silent the haters and finally do well. He got his podium, but somehow, the critique has even picked up after that outstanding performance. In a year where he also picked up La Flèche and La Doyenne.

Its getting ridicolous

+100

Valverde is one of the best all-rounders throwing his leg over a bike. Wins a classic, a monument and podiums le Tour in one season and gets called disparaging names? It borders on incredulous.
I guess people don't like his quite passive style of racing which doesn't imply lack of success. You can be passive and win a good bunch of races - Gerrans. He's still very succesfull with his style even if he maybe could win slightly more if he had more guts. But in smaller races he seems to be a different rider. Exhibit A = Andalucia 2016. I think Libertine was writing extensively about Valverde's style a good bunch of times on this forum.

EDIT:
Valv.Piti said:
What makes me really sad is people comparing Valverde to Gerrans. :(
They both are roughly from the same generation and they often crossed paths with each other with better or worser results. They both have quite extensive history competing each other which implies a good amount of data for eventual comparisons (i'm not the biggest fan of them but they're quite hard to avoid). I know they're different type of riders but they often targeted the same or similar races for over 10 years so i don't see any problem with comparing them. I think the amound of necessary data here is sufficient for making any comparisons.
 
Re:

hrotha said:
What's with this obsession with saving domestiques for the finale? 90% of the time, what we see is whole teams being wasted not because they were used up too soon, but because they didn't play their cards when they could still contribute.


Seeing Sky and LottoNL right now made me think off this post
 

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