Mara Abbott in Pink!!!!! (Hey Guys)!

[Freddythefrog]

Thanks BBR that was a really good post. I guessed I had never focused on the disparity in events before. It is a nonsense and, as he writes, is designed in prejudice and that can only be harmful. Perhaps that issue rates up there as a "must do" change alongside the attitude of the press, before any temporary gains can be secured - "bring equality to events".

It certainly reflects on your points about the weird place cycle sport has got to. I could imagine having children and the sort of conversation I would have. Kids, we can go out cycling, it is fun and we get to see the World and stay healthy. It is a great pastime. If you like it, you can compete. Andrew, if you get good there is a great career to be had and you can make lots of money. Annabel, don't you even dream about it. Keep away from the place. The whole business is run by a weird bunch. The institutions have condescending rules regulating participation so if the boys have a 1000m event you get a 500m event. The press are misogynistic and no matter how good you are you will never receive any of the plaudits due. To get even the token press they might dish out, you will need to take off some of your clothes. The fan base who get fed this pap, behave a bit weirdly as well.

Yuk - would I want to have that conversation? Making me think about children and what sports I might want to do with them if I had them ? So daddy, what is it that draws you to this sport ?

I enjoyed reading all of the threads on Kerry Litka's site. At long last it does seem that a small number of people are starting to ask the relevant questions.

I was intrigued by all your comments about idiots scowling on the background when you are trying to take photographs of female riders. I had never considered that before. That adds to the weirdness. Have these guys (I take it that they are men ?) set themselves up as "minders" of an imaginary secret harem ? "We have corralled off "our team" of girls and we want to keep them away from the gaze of others in our secret little World ?" Is this another weird thing that prevents the story of athletic endeavor reaching the audience it should ? The male management of teams regard it easier to keep control if no-one really knows they are there ?

Penultimate point, minor in comparison with the others - I am not sure that other pro's not commenting on Mara's guestbook is anything unusual, I doubt Contador got too many hits on his fan website from anyone who rode the TdF last year, however the fact that club based and general riders in the States are not commenting is highly valid. I think it reflects this whole "secret" activity thing that women's competitive cycling is. They know if they go above the parapet they are setting themselves up for being targets (from the type of posters who want to spend their lives typing on a thread about "podium girls" ?).

Final point - Laura and Greg - what happened to you ? Have BBR, a couple of others and I turned this into a thread you cannot go near ? Is the prejudice in cycling the 2nd omerta ? We can make quiet bleating noises in the background but do anything that challenges of changes it ? Chronologically are we at at 1966 in the equivalence to the PEDs story in cycling. We have not yet had the big press catching blow that cracks the bond in the seized cogs of this machine - or is this an entirely different story, one that evolves through a series of smooth "velvet" revolutions ?

Greg and Laura, I requested a comment? Any chance ?

 

[BBRoberts]

More on these problems - Part 1

Froggy, I'll ramble on a bit more. I said plenty, but what the heck, a bit more.

Oh, BTW, yes, when someone like Nicole Cooke's father speaks out, that's very good for women's cycling. We need more pro fathers to speak out and support their daughters. More then likely, many pro women don't want their fathers to say anything. It's the embarrassment thing, you know how that goes!

One time i was shooting a rider with my partner, I was working the camera, she was doing the interview. Well, some thug was in the background staring into the camera as a third party giving me a dirty look. I had a press pass for crying out loud, but he didn't think I should be taking a photo of pro women cyclists. Well, after I took 4 photos he wouldn't move intent on making sure I didn't get a decent photo. Finally the rider and my interview partner, both women, had to turn to the idiot and wave him off. Some people, good grief! What I have to do today sometimes is just wave people off! Get the heck-ell out of my photos!!

Believe it or not, women do it as much as the men. I have had a number of women spectators wreck good photos with dirty looks cause they have the same mentality. If you are shooting pro women cyclists, they only think you are shooting women in a demeaning fashion and that your motives are suspect. It doesn't seem to dawn on them that this is a bike race and those women are pro riders. Same prejudice exists between men and women fans against women, pretty weird. Their own sex is even a detriment to themselves sometimes. On the men side, never. I could shoot any rider without ever a problem. In fact, if I wanted to shoot the men, I am pretty sure I could of been in good company right now at a very high level, but since I cover women's racing, I am where I am, but I refuse to change what I believe in. I could have been shooting Lance and probably got in their good company by now, cause I am a very good looking likeable guy, but women's cycling has always been my passion.

I just think this current generation is not very progressive yet. I have come to accept the way women are in cycling, and all their quirkiness. I have seen plenty, but it's up to them to change things on their own as fans will eventually change in the process. If they are not seen as professionals in the media, then they won't be taken seriously. Progressive means we accept women like we do men without the gender bias and stop the class wars between men and women, although that's a much bigger issue. I don't believe once we reach equal mass in the media that we will stop highlighting the good looking sexy riders, that will always exist, its only natural that they spice up the peloton, but when men and women are equally respected as professionals for athletic performance, then we will start to get somewhere.

On events, for instance women's events are shorter faster now, and that was done to make women's racing more exciting. During the HP Challenge, the promoter wanted to make it even longer and harder, as long and as hard as the Men's TDF. That would be a disaster, IMO. For one, women are not massively doped to make it thorough a big tour like the men were/are. Also women's races are shorter for the reasons I mentioned. Holding massively long stage races for women with massive climbs would not only be boring, but break the riders. That's just not necessary, and I think the new format works well for women, and some occasional climbing tours like the Giro this year. Cooke's dad does make some good points, although I am not a big track fan personally.

You comments were hilarious in a good way, very funny! I got a kick out of that!! Yes, Annabel being told my her parents not to go into bike racing reminds me of what Greg Lemond said. I believe he said there is no way he wants his kids to go into bike racing in the current climate. He doesn't want his son exposed to the doping status quo. Does Lemond have a daughter? Well, if its a daughter then he would obviously tell her it would only be a personal achievement, and any real career earnings would come from her University degree, not from a cycling career.

Froggy, CN's Greg and Laura, and probably everyone else in this organization has read this thread, rest assured. IMO, they won't say anything that would risk affecting their jobs or status within this news site, but you can also be assured they do not all agree with each other. What they choose to do is another matter. They have their own ideas and opinions obviously, but probably prefer not to go against the grain. CN is not big media though like TV is. TV is clearly where women can make a mark, not the Internet. The Internet is like the pilot light for the big burners. Those burners are worldwide TV media resources.

 

[BBRoberts]

More on these problems - Part 2

I know when I have talked about or brought up the subject about the problems with women's cycling with various women managers, they usually act hostile or think you are a troublemaker. They refuse to talk about it and usually run from the issues and problems within cycling at the pro women's level. The ones in higher positions are on the take so to speak, and they won't say anything constructive that would be seen by others in the organization as negative, and affect or risk losing their job. It's kind of like, keep your mouth shut and do your job, and there will be no problems. I'm not on the take, I don't answer to anyone, and I am not afraid to tell it like it is.

I guess I am sort of like a black sheep, but I've been accepted because I do a decent job without motive for profit or anything else except to put women's pro bike racing in the spotlight. I remember watching Mike Engleman when he raced during the 90's. He used to race with his tongue out, and I watched him win after the women's race. Engleman works with the USWCDP. He said in an interview that he didn't believe women should badger promoters to raise the praise money for women to match the men, and that this would only lead to promoters pulling women's races altogether. Well, that might be true, but that was all Mike said and in short, that was a very poor dismissive answer to the problems. For someone who works and believes in this side of the sport as much as I do, I would think he could of been a lot more forthcoming and progressive in his viewpoints when he gave that interview to DP.

Basically what he is saying is not to rock the boat, or you will be shown the door. That's the same nonsense and scare tactics that have kept women in their place for decades. What he should of said is something along the lines of let's build a model and present some plans or ideas that would encourage race promoters and make them keen to look at this as the new way forward, instead of just don't bite the hand that feeds you. Like I said, bite lightly, be smart, bring other ideas to the table. Let's put someone like Nicole Freedman in charge of bringing new fresh progressive ideas to the table, and give race promoters a reason to raise that prize money, instead of just dismissing it as hopeless.

It's true what somewhat else wrote, that men do indeed run most of both men and women's cycling. Very few women run things at the higher levels like Linda Jackson or Nicola Cranmer, but even they have to constantly rebuild their revenues and work with sponsors year in and year out. The progressive model I suggested is the best, IMO. Get someone like Nicole Freedman onboard, and build a business of your own to sponsor and cover the costs of running a pro team. This is the best, as you can call it anything you want, and you don't have to beg for money year in and year out.

The reason more women don't run things in cycling at the highest levels is the same reasons they race as a hobby or take up cycling as rehab from running or skiing. They are using the sport as a means to an end, not as a career, and certainly not to build it and take it to a higher level. The same reasons they pack up and go straight home after a race instead of hanging around to support the after effects of their side is the same reason they don't endeavor to move up to the higher ranks. It's not a career, not a cradle to grave life, so they no grand ambitions to make their mark for women in some significant way, except to win races and prize money if the can. Yeah, it's true, many are takers and have a sense of entitlement in their views of cycling and don't realize it in such a progressive way, that all women should seek to built it first, before thinking they are entitled to something. The social gathering scene is often all they want, nothing more. If women strive or work towards having a higher percentage of women who work in all these organizations, obviously things would change faster. That is also KEY, besides big media.

On the press, most press photographers are paid agents that do many gigs. They don't know anything about cycling much and they don't care either. They are in the business to make money and go where they are told to go. The ones who specialize in women's cycling, and that's probably near all of them, do it out of their own pocket without motive for profit. They do it to help in their own small way, to put it on the map. However, unfortunately most of the men who do it, as least most of the ones I know are looking for a wife from the pro peloton. I don't know if any purists exist besides myself. Everyone seems to have some personal motive. I don't, I just do it, that's all. When all of those guys find a wife, I am sure they will leave the sport.

I think what the women's only specialty photographers and photo journalists have done over the last few years for women pro cycling has been above and beyond the call of duty. It has been a very special time for women to get so much coverage over the internet media by those specialists on those various women's cycling sites. Six years ago, there weren't any, today there are at least half a dozen specialty pro women's sites with solid content. In personal sites and blogs, they run into the thousands. That's a big change over from ten years ago. However, the big media sites have not been as keen to put women in the spotlight and that is where the change or awareness should take place. What did perplex me was you would think as hard as some of us have worked to cover all these races worldwide and put them in the spotlight in all kinds of specialty sites for women's cycling that this would surely of made a big difference.

What I have noticed because I follow statistics a lot, is that it appears to have not make much difference. You can have a thousand sites out there that specialize in women's cycling with photos and stories, race reports, etc, but without big TV media, it won't make any difference. Cycling seems to be uniquely or mostly a men's internet and TV culture, and if you can't break into the masses worldwide with solid TV coverage, women's cycling is not likely to grow much, no matter how hard we try.

TV is key, and if the UCI does not cover the women's world cup next year, then you will know Edita's lament is correct, and that was watch the UCI drop the ball once again!! Status Quo!

 

[Greg Johnson]

However, both Laura and yourself dipped into this thread, can we get some sort of response to indicate you have read what has followed ?

You certainly can, and I certainly have been following. It is the busiest month of the year in our various offices though, so I've only had a chance to pop in when time permits and I've also been away for a few days, but I have been keeping up with it.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[BBRoberts]

Girls Gone Wild Mentality

I was intrigued by all your comments about idiots scowling on the background when you are trying to take photographs of female riders. I had never considered that before. That adds to the weirdness. Have these guys (I take it that they are men ?) set themselves up as "minders" of an imaginary secret harem ? "We have corralled off "our team" of girls and we want to keep them away from the gaze of others in our secret little World ?" Is this another weird thing that prevents the story of athletic endeavor reaching the audience it should ? The male management of teams regard it easier to keep control if no-one really knows they are there ?activity thing that women's competitive cycling is. They know if they go above the parapet they are setting themselves up for being targets (from the type of posters who want to spend their lives typing on a thread about "podium girls" ?).

Froggy, I wanted to clarify on the scowling idiots you referred to. The dept of the weirdness you suggest is certainly possible, and perhaps sometimes that's might be the way it is in some places. Sounds more like Cowboy town at the Rodeo or something, but what I was stating is probably most of the time much more simpler. What I was talking about is fans being clueless based on the non-progressive culture we are stuck in. I've haven't been in the UK, so I kind of get the sense they are more of a male dominant society then the USA based on a lot of stuff I have read at various UK cycling forums. I can't say really without doing a bit of research on that, but our forums are pretty much overwhelmingly male dominated boorish clubs as well. I'm not sure how they act over there at women's races but over here fans are sometimes clueless and stuck in the 60's when it comes to women's cycling.

I think what the problem is sometimes is when fans see you taking photos of pro women they tend to think straightaway that it's just some guy who wants to take photos of sexy women like what they see in Girls Gone Wild videos. There is a backwards mentality created by the Girls Gone Wild college break predators and that has really hurt the image of women in America, IMO. So the first thing that comes to mind for some fans are photographers taking photos of pro women cyclists must have ulterior motives. Otherwise why would they do it? It couldn't possible don on them that this is for real, and those are pro women cyclists and this a legit press agent working to highlight pro women in cycling? For many, if women's cycling is covered, then it must be a Girls Gone Wild on bikes slant to them, or Huge Heffners spread of Pro Women cyclists revealed latest edition of Playboy. Otherwise, a lot of fans just don't get it.

When they finally do get it, it’s like some kind of revelation and they are quite embarrassed but this is the mindset we are stuck with sometimes in the USA. Once they figure it out, then there are no problems and everything fits and blends in, but sometimes fans can be a major pain the ****, stuck in the 60's, not progressive. Depends on where you are too. Are you shooting a race in Gooberville or in say some place like Santa Barbara, a progressive culture. Coastal cultures are usually much more progressive then backwards parts, and a lot of riders are also from the progressive parts of the country because that is where they can train without fearing Joe Cowboy is going to drive by and grab their rear, like what happened to Liz Hatch on a training ride one time.

But yeah, many a good photo wrecked by idiot fans who don't have a clue and need to grow up! However, things have come a long way baby, as they said in what, the Pepsi commercial? In the 60's, 70's, I remember at races here nobody clapped or cheered the men pros either. In fact the few people who did just happened to be at the race were probably just people who were in the area and didn't have much of a clue about bike racing, and even when the race commentator asked the fans to clap and cheer during the final sprint, people just kind of stood there frozen like they didn't have a clue. A lot of people in the old days didn't know what to think or how to act, and were pretty much dead heads, clueless. Nobody took photos much or made any fuss over the sport. I remember a lot of awesome women back then but nobody really cared much about cycling locally.

Today, the fans we have are pretty much bike fans, but there are still those people who are stuck in the 60's. There are some that wonder in off the streets but most of the people there came to see the race, and clearly I have not seen at any time in previous history that many fans turn out, cheer and support the women pros at our races. While I was a big part of that success, I just know that if even if only one person leads the way, it can make a big difference in any local community. Someone has to hold the spotlight on them, and then things can change. Finally fans are getting the point that women pros are really serious athletes and not just sexy girls on bikes, throw back from the 60's thing. Certainly trashy exploits like Girls Gone Wild has not helped the image of women here in the states, and the battle continues between those who just want to exploit women as sex objects, and those who want cycling to be about athletic performance and cultural equity. Yeah, Mommy and Daddy, Brother and Sister need to see the same thing, a seamless experience without the gender or sexual bias that is so pervasive today. This equity exists in Tennis and Ice Skating, but not in cycling. The attention that Liz Hatch is getting today, is extremely disproportionate based on her palmares, and in my opinion dips the sport towards the Girls Gone Wild model, not fairness and equity across the board.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Thanks Greg - very pleasing to witness.
I pinched this from another thread in the "About the website" section. I am not replying on that page as it seems there is little traffic.

Regarding having a separate women's page, we've discussed this in the past and came to the conclusion that the women should be present on the main sections with all other classes of races: U23, Junior, Elite men and Women - all are of equal importance and are treated as such.

Of course, the ProTour/World Calendar is the most popular for our readers, so these races get top billing, but having the Giro Donne directly below the Tour de France will garner a lot more traffic for the women's coverage than if it was tucked away in some separate section.

Just FYI.

I just have to say this backs up BBR's comment and my supportive note. There is self-kidology going on here.
Equality - Let's look at what is available for the reader/fan if they click.

Location - TdF most popular race on the planet - deserves and gets top billing
- Giro Ciclisto (GC) - located directly below.

So far excellent - nobody can fault CN

Preview GC - 1 page article, supported by a small selection of images of last year's race. No depth in analysis, fairly 1 dimensional description - but at least it is there. Useful for the person who has never heard of the race before - probably barely worth visiting for a fan of women's racing.

Preview TdF - Excellent article, supported by numerous other articles building up to the race. Massive selection of images past and recent. Links to galleries of different riders. Everything a fan would want. lots to keep on coming back to during the race.

Race History - GC - list of winners only showing nationality and only 2 riders with team details added (!). Any fan would spend 15 seconds here and never need to come back.

Race History - TdF - list of 1st, 2nd & 3rd, Points winner, Mountains winner, Young rider winner, team winner. Excellent reference point for fans. Would generate multiple hits during the race and then in the winter months afterwards.


Stage details - GC - Modest map that is not high quality, similarly profile.No details of sprint points. A fan would be seeking better quality information elsewhere.
Stage details - TdF - Editorial comment on route, high quality map and high quality profile. All mountain and sprint points clearly identified. Fans would review the race before the start and then make multiple hits during the race and in the months afterwards. Excellently laid out and lots of info.

Live coverage - GC - nil
Live coverage - Tdf - excellent. How many people at work keep a tab with this open during the working day ? Great for catching up on during a break or lunchtime. Will generate a huge volume of hits.

Race report - GC appears many hours after the result. A simple report (written after HTC or Cervelo have put out their own reports on their own websites?) Zero analysis. Full ranking on stage, sprints, mountains and overall. However - because it appears so late, any fan has already found out the result elsewhere. The only hits you will receive will be from the person who has only a vague interest and catches up every 3 or 4 days.

Race report - TdF appears very quickly after the stage. Speed of delivery mean that analysis is modest. However it is the first with all the rankings, stage, sprints, mountain young rider and overall.

Stage photos - GC - 20 or so photographs. Nicely done and representative. Worth visiting, but fans will often not see a photo of "their" rider. A quick view of the thumbnails and proper look if very interested ?

Stage Photos - TdF - 90 or so photographs. Nicely done and representative. Fans will always want to visit to check out all the photos.

Greg/Laura - and so I could go on. OK the TdF is your showpiece of the year and makes your business. However for the women's Giro - this level of coverage is below critical mass. It might be featured in the right place on the front page but the substance is so lacking in both quality, quantity & timing, it reeks of tokenism and certainly is not good enough to generate a developing interest. If anything, it is ony satisfying a higher level of interest, still in place, from when the quality and quantity of coverage of this event was better on this site. To even talk about "equal importance" is setting off in the wrong direction. I have done the analysis because Laura/Greg - this level of coverage is the problem. Sticking it on the front page right under the TdF enables you to crow "equality is us". The substance is somewhat different.

You can do so much better. How difficult is it to keep the race history up to date ? You have all the details from coverage years ago. Pages like that just smack of "couldn't be a**ed". What is maintenance - about 5 minutes a year once done ? Same with the route details and preview. Getting a reporter there to do your daily report - well BBR has given you enough pointers. Right - I'm signing off here on this thread. BBR - enjoyed your comments, disagree with some. Particularly TV. That will drop out if there is no supportive net based infrastructure and like it or not - the main place to find that in the English speaking World is CN. Whilst CN continue to view tokenism as their ultimate goal, nothing is developing anywhere. This site is the chicken that could lay the egg.

 

[dolophonic]

You guy's should write a book.

 

[BBRoberts]

signing off

I guess I'll sign off too. Good comparison on the two most important races for men and women. Since cycling has become a Internet culture largely based out of lack of TV coverage, I think it needs both TV and Internet to survive. TV for the masses and Internet for structure and more info for subscribers. The best part about the Internet is that it's free. We used to survive and get by with TV before the Internet, but then we had relied on magazines to get the extra info we craved. I just believe TV would be Key and make the biggest difference worldwide. With the huge number of sites popping up that are carrying a increasingly larger piece of the cycling pie, I don't see a consolidation or a conglomerate taking control unless the Internet falls into the hands of corporations. If that happens, then cycling is doomed anyway, IMO.

 

[BBRoberts]

BTW CN, Perhaps and Interview with Emma?

Here's a wrap up note...

Emma is after all from your country, perhaps an Interview?

I've been waiting quite a while now, I havn't noticed any interviews with Emma Pooley. Did I miss something? Where is the Emma Pooley interview to wrap up the Giro. There are always two sides to a story and Emma's take on the Giro would not only be equally important but equally interesting. If you found an interview somewhere, or a blog, or a bit of rambling somewhere, post it here so I can read it. I want to know what Emma said. I want to know what happened with Cevelo, and her duties concerning team mates like Claudia Hausler. I want to know what happened when she flatted and why a team mate or the Cevelo team car was not Johnny on the spot to change her wheel? Why did she lose so much time there during the Sormano stage? Was she 100 percent for the Giro, or not 100 percent in form? Was she burned out from winning races all season long? Did she make the Giro a priority or was it resigned to Claudia as stated in the BC interview? What happened, what went wrong, give us the dirt? All the nasty little details! Why was her ITT so sub par, was that a sign? Was Emma ready for a showdown with Mara, or was it saved for another day? Was Emma giving 100 percent on the Stelvio? Or was that so called high pace, all she could give.

I think it's equally important that Emma do this interview and equally important that a major cycling website obtain this interview for the fans. We heard from Mara, now we need to hear from Emma?
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...tt-committing-to-be-authentically-mara_129098

BBR