Marginal Gains

Sep 29, 2012
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PEZ: Plateau de Beille?
JB: It was stage two of the Ronde de L’Isard which was part of the 1999 UCI under-23 World Cup.

We were an Italian team (UC San Paolo) and knew of most of the French climbs but hadn’t heard of the Plateau de Beille when the organisers faxed us the parcours.

Then someone said it was the one where Pantani had won in the 1998 Tour – I think that was the first time that it was used.

We got hold of videos of Pantani’s win and sat down and studied them.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/plateau-de-beille-record-man-jamie-burrow/#.VDxP-VdZukc
Another one where Sky's analysis of T Martin's TT being videoed and analysed was touted as a marginal gain.

Well here they're doing it for an U23 race in 1999.

Marginal gains would seem to be useful the first time you used it, otherwise it's a marginal maintenance yeah?

Good grief.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Another one where Sky's analysis of T Martin's TT being videoed and analysed was touted as a marginal gain.

Well here they're doing it for an U23 race in 1999.

Marginal gains would seem to be useful the first time you used it, otherwise it's a marginal maintenance yeah?

Good grief.
come on DW, you underestimate the power of marginal gains. Jamie Burrow went on to set the record, breaking Il Pirata's record!

proof is in the english pudding. garginal mains work!

stiff upper lip, purity, muscular christianity, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, tennyson and marginal gains plus brailsford

oh, and jamie burrow, the most talented climber not from colombia
 
Aug 13, 2010
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I would think a marginal gain is a gain as long as (all or some of) your competition is not doing the same thing. What difference does it make how many times you do it?
 
May 27, 2010
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Don't be late Pedro said:
I would think a marginal gain is a gain as long as (all or some of) your competition is not doing the same thing. What difference does it make how many times you do it?
Funny, in the context of learning curves and diminishing returns, marginal gains represent the point beyond which all improvements, collectively, don't really matter. It is a journey to the insignificant.

Thus, with respect to your statement, the more times you do it, you would be lucky to have even a marginal improvement on an increasingly marginal gain.

Dave.
 
Aug 13, 2010
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D-Queued said:
Funny, in the context of learning curves and diminishing returns, marginal gains represent the point beyond which all improvements, collectively, don't really matter. It is a journey to the insignificant.

Thus, with respect to your statement, the more times you do it, you would be lucky to have even a marginal improvement on an increasingly marginal gain.

Dave.
Perhaps 'doing the same thing' is not the best choice of words but it does not necessarily correlate that a marginal improvement decreases the more times you do it.
 
Aug 26, 2014
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Don't be late Pedro said:
Perhaps 'doing the same thing' is not the best choice of words but it does not necessarily correlate that a marginal improvement decreases the more times you do it.
I'm with Dave. I suspect repeated marginal gains = diminishing returns.

Actually, I just think marginal gains is a crock of ****

proof is in the english pudding. garginal mains work!

stiff upper lip, purity, muscular christianity, gordonstoun, chariots of fire, tennyson and marginal gains plus brailsford
Blackcat, you had me at Muscular Christianity...
 
Mar 13, 2009
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if it is true gain(s) and IP, what, is Brailsford like China now and leakage of IP.

why would you tell your competitors where you have some advantage, and allow them to neutralise it. re:zero sum, giving them the tool and losing your advantage over them

market efficiency would say such technique would be met in kind...

so this is a paradox, mere mention of "marginal advantage" will have it evaporated (and the background technique)
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Anyone who thinks marginal gains is anything but a smokescreen needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
 
Dec 11, 2013
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Dear Wiggo said:
Marginal gains would seem to be useful the first time you used it, otherwise it's a marginal maintenance yeah?
Yes. You've 'banked' that improvement as such and continuing is only holding the gain you've made, however small.

However because Team X did something one time 20 years ago doesn't mean everyone does it every time now.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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TailWindHome said:
Yes. You've 'banked' that improvement as such and continuing is only holding the gain you've made, however small.

However because Team X did something one time 20 years ago doesn't mean everyone does it every time now.
no, its a gain on the market. once the market (see: peloton) moves, your gain has been nullified. its a paradox. you mention it, with the key, and it disappears
 
Dec 11, 2013
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blackcat said:
no, its a gain on the market. once the market (see: peloton) moves, your gain has been nullified. its a paradox. you mention it, with the key, and it disappears
Yes if you assume that everyone does it, does it well and does it consistently.

In effect everyone has made the same gain.
 
May 26, 2010
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TailWindHome said:
Yes if you assume that everyone does it, does it well and does it consistently.

In effect everyone has made the same gain.
If you assume that there are few secrets in pro cycling as riders move from team to team regularly then any marginal gain gets passed on very quickly. Also bear in mind plenty of riders live together from different teams and no doubt share information.

Uran, Quintana and the Henao's live together. 3 teams 1 house.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
If you assume that there are few secrets in pro cycling as riders move from team to team regularly then any marginal gain gets passed on very quickly. Also bear in mind plenty of riders live together from different teams and no doubt share information.
indeed.
Uran, Quintana and the Henao's live together. 3 teams 1 house.
that's in pamplona.
then there's girona, where you have members of three or four teams (if not more) living and training together as well, plus teams coming there for training camps.
And I think similar can be said about a place like Monaco.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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One could argue that the ABP was the father of marginal gains...
Dope within the limit's and find the products that doesn't give you "A" problem.....
 
Mar 13, 2009
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mrhender said:
One could argue that the ABP was the father of marginal gains...
Dope within the limit's and find the products that doesn't give you "A" problem.....
isnt that what Slipstream do? Their "A" riders on the July team
 
Jul 21, 2012
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I rate marginal gains somewhere between flat earth society and bigfoot.

Incredible what kind of nonsense people can delude themselves into believe.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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the thing is, its a potential negative economy.

they should look at dialling in the 3 or 4 tangibles that contribute 98% of the performance formula, and just dial dial dial and refine those factors to their latent potential.

this cr@p of garginal mains will potentially take some focus off those key ingredients, so you dont dial them in at 100%. Its not like, it is axiomatic you hit 100% with your performance, and every 0.01%, a 00001 improvement is net gain. my @rse.Taking your eye off the ball, and eye off the prize can only lead to a negative economy, a loss.

and D Q's pithy epigram, marginal gains aint a rounding error on ferrari. NO $HIT!!!
 
May 27, 2010
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the sceptic said:
I rate marginal gains somewhere between flat earth society and bigfoot.

Incredible what kind of nonsense people can delude themselves into believe.
As noted in a different thread, by promoting this crap you'd think everyone is and had been riding with square wheels or hard rubber tires.

'Aha, you go faster if you put air in the inner tube.'

blackcat said:
...

and D Q's pithy epigram, marginal gains aint a rounding error on ferrari. NO $HIT!!!
Thanks! And, of course, agreed.

Dave.
 
I have just finished Faster by Michael Hutchinson. Its one Sky & BC W@nkfest.

He doesn't even stop to think "Hmmm, wait on, Froome hasn't done this yet" when he is talking about testing VO2 or wind tunnel testing.

Laughable the way his ****es on them without thinking about it.

There is a section on marginal gains and that's quite a decent read, but its also funny too. They are talking about the suits they used for the team pursuit at London 2012, seeing which fabric was better. It was Boardmans wife apparently that had to point out that the riders sweat and therefore they need testing wet.....
 
Jul 21, 2012
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D-Queued said:
As noted in a different thread, by promoting this crap you'd think everyone is and had been riding with square wheels or hard rubber tires.

'Aha, you go faster if you put air in the inner tube.'



Thanks! And, of course, agreed.

Dave.
Lets assume for a second that marginal gains is in fact real and that it can make clean rider faster than dopers, and that team sky were the first to discover this.

Well then, what is the logical thing to do? Any sane person will come up with the correct answer here. You keep it to yourself.

But sky didnt do this, they talked about it to anyone who were willing to listen. They gave away the secret to every other team in pro cycling. Why would they spend so much time and money developing this huge advantage for then just to give it away for free to everyone else? Doesnt make any sense.

Lets take it one step further then. If you still believe in unicorns at this point you have to ask yourself: Now that the cat is out of the bag, surely the other teams will start using marginal gains too. But then, what will happen when dopers start using it? Surely the combination of doping + marginal gains will be superior to only marginal gains.
 
Jul 25, 2014
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MartinGT said:
I have just finished Faster by Michael Hutchinson. Its one Sky & BC W@nkfest.

He doesn't even stop to think "Hmmm, wait on, Froome hasn't done this yet" when he is talking about testing VO2 or wind tunnel testing.

Laughable the way his ****es on them without thinking about it.

There is a section on marginal gains and that's quite a decent read, but its also funny too. They are talking about the suits they used for the team pursuit at London 2012, seeing which fabric was better. It was Boardmans wife apparently that had to point out that the riders sweat and therefore they need testing wet.....
I have that yet to read on the Kindle whenever I feel like a bit of comedy fiction!
 

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