Marginal Gains

[TailWindHome]

Lets assume for a second that marginal gains is in fact real and that it can make clean rider faster than dopers, and that team sky were the first to discover this. These are 3 separate assumptions

Well then, what is the logical thing to do? Any sane person will come up with the correct answer here. You keep it to yourself. Keep what to yourself? 'Marginal Gains' as such is nothing more than the application of common business improvement techniques to sporting performance. Go into any bookshop or library and there'll be a shelf full of books on these topics

But sky didn't do this, they talked about it to anyone who were willing to listen. They gave away the secret to every other team in pro cycling. Why would they spend so much time and money developing this huge advantage for then just to give it away for free to everyone else? Doesnt make any sense.

Can't have it both ways - demand to know how a team improves in order to determine that they aren't cheating, but when you get an answer say it can't be true as if it was they wouldn't have told you about it

Lets take it one step further then. If you still believe in unicorns at this point you have to ask yourself still with the unicorns?

Now that the cat is out of the bag, surely the other teams will start using marginal gains too. Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe they're as sceptical as you are and don't see the benefits. Or don't have the budget/resources to implement in full. Or believe what they're doing already is just fine. Where a clever team can derive an advantage is by cherry picking the best of what a marginal gains team may have done

But then, what will happen when dopers start using it? Surely the combination of doping + marginal gains will be superior to only marginal gains. Of course. Doping doesn't mean you can't improve your performance in other ways

10 characters

 

[Archibald]

it's nice to believe in miracles

 

[blackcat]

i believe in negative economies and opportunity costs before skyTM marginal gains

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

They are talking about the suits they used for the team pursuit at London 2012, seeing which fabric was better. It was Boardmans wife apparently that had to point out that the riders sweat and therefore they need testing wet.....

Stiff upper lip dont sweat...

 

[blackcat]

Stiff upper lip dont sweat...

gordonstoun gets cold

 

[D-Queued]

...Keep what to yourself? 'Marginal Gains' as such is nothing more than the application of common business improvement techniques to sporting performance. Go into any bookshop or library and there'll be a shelf full of books on these topics...

If you read through those books, you might come across the concept of Trade Secrets.

Those are the precious things that you don't even disclose through patent protection because they critical competitive advantage.

In professional cycling, which like other professional sport is beautiful in its simplicity of objectives, why would you disclose such Trade Secrets on the key to winning?

If disclosure was part of the sport's culture, and Omerta wasn't, then more folks than Riis and Frankie would be disclosing past doping without being forced to make a deal with USADA or be subpoenaed.

It is illogical and culturally inconsistent to reveal the secrets to true competitive advantage.

Dave.

 

[pmcg76]

Sounds like this guy is a real believer in the benefits of marginal gains as well and well before SKY.

"He described the philosophy of his medicine to us. It emcompassed everything that I had tried vainly to apply over the previous three years. The doctor spoke about diet, alternative medicine and Chinese principles. He referred to the beneficial effects of ginseng, royal jelly, grape juice and non-alcoholic beer. These words flowed into my ears like a fountain of honey"

Anyone care to guess who the above quote is from?

 

[Maxiton]

Sounds like this guy is a real believer in the benefits of marginal gains as well and well before SKY.

"He described the philosophy of his medicine to us. It emcompassed everything that I had tried vainly to apply over the previous three years. The doctor spoke about diet, alternative medicine and Chinese principles. He referred to the beneficial effects of ginseng, royal jelly, grape juice and non-alcoholic beer. These words flowed into my ears like a fountain of honey"

Anyone care to guess who the above quote is from?

Uuuh . . . Manolo Saiz?

 

[blackcat]

If you read through those books, you might come across the concept of Trade Secrets.

Those are the precious things that you don't even disclose through patent protection because they critical competitive advantage.

In professional cycling, which like other professional sport is beautiful in its simplicity of objectives, why would you disclose such Trade Secrets on the key to winning?

If disclosure was part of the sport's culture, and Omerta wasn't, then more folks than Riis and Frankie would be disclosing past doping without being forced to make a deal with USADA or be subpoenaed.

It is illogical and culturally inconsistent to reveal the secrets to true competitive advantage.

Dave.

which has been my staccato refrain in this and other threads from the start.

this is the paradox of marginal gains, once uttered, it neutralises itself. like a cycling particle physics. Atom ceases to be everywhere when you see it.

 

[the sceptic]

"So from the outside looking in I can understand how people might interpret this but Oleg has really invested a large amount in sports science on this team. We're running from that platform and it makes sure that riders don't have to make the decisions we did. In my opinion sports science very much trumps the advantages that the last generation got from doping."

This is pretty funny. Too bad they forgot to ask him which generation Contador belongs to.

I really wish Walsh could get himself imbedded and write a book about this.

 

[Dr. Juice]

This is pretty funny. Too bad they forgot to ask him which generation Contador belongs to.

I really wish Walsh could get himself imbedded and write a book about this.

Old school warrior

 

[pmcg76]

Sounds like this guy is a real believer in the benefits of marginal gains as well and well before SKY.

"He described the philosophy of his medicine to us. It emcompassed everything that I had tried vainly to apply over the previous three years. The doctor spoke about diet, alternative medicine and Chinese principles. He referred to the beneficial effects of ginseng, royal jelly, grape juice and non-alcoholic beer. These words flowed into my ears like a fountain of honey"

Anyone care to guess who the above quote is from?

Oh yeah, this quote came from Christophe Bassons, paragon of clean.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

BBC doing an "in-depth" magazine article on Marginal Gains
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34247629#comp-index-title
- see especially the section on Speed Eating!

 

[blackcat]

sarginal mains, the major in kubrik's full metal jacket.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

BBC doing an "in-depth" magazine article on Marginal Gains
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34247629#comp-index-title
- see especially the section on Speed Eating!

Written by a Sky bot aka Times hack Matthew Syed. More PR nonsense to fool the idiots.

Read his twitter feed for total Skybotness.......

https://twitter.com/matthewsyed

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

As noted in a different thread, by promoting this crap you'd think everyone is and had been riding with square wheels or hard rubber tires.

'Aha, you go faster if you put air in the inner tube.'


Thanks! And, of course, agreed.

Dave.

Lets assume for a second that marginal gains is in fact real and that it can make clean rider faster than dopers, and that team sky were the first to discover this.

Well then, what is the logical thing to do? Any sane person will come up with the correct answer here. You keep it to yourself.

But sky didnt do this, they talked about it to anyone who were willing to listen. They gave away the secret to every other team in pro cycling. Why would they spend so much time and money developing this huge advantage for then just to give it away for free to everyone else? Doesnt make any sense.

Lets take it one step further then. If you still believe in unicorns at this point you have to ask yourself: Now that the cat is out of the bag, surely the other teams will start using marginal gains too. But then, what will happen when dopers start using it? Surely the combination of doping + marginal gains will be superior to only marginal gains.

Well, borrowing from "LRP said" thread: Sky started Great Transformations from TTer to mountain eagle,now everybody's doing it, even GIANT.

 

[Archibald]

Re:

BBC doing an "in-depth" magazine article on Marginal Gains
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34247629#comp-index-title
- see especially the section on Speed Eating!

is that speed eating bit legit?? "Kobayashi"??
Isn't that the unwinnable test in Star Trek - the "kobayashi maru"?
The one that Kirk hacks (or cheats) to win...

 

[Brian Butterfield]

Fluff my pillows Dave.

 

[ray j willings]

Obviously marginal gains work. Froome has the fastest average speed on Ax-3-Domaines . Faster than a whole bunch of dopers ,,,it works

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

BBC doing an "in-depth" magazine article on Marginal Gains
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34247629#comp-index-title
- see especially the section on Speed Eating!

is that speed eating bit legit?? "Kobayashi"??
Isn't that the unwinnable test in Star Trek - the "kobayashi maru"?
The one that Kirk hacks (or cheats) to win...

focus on the result: the guy DOUBLED the world record...now I'm scared of what we can expect from Wiggo on the track during one hour... or Vroom on Alpe

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is Landa a marginal gain for Team Sky?

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

Is Landa a marginal gain for Team Sky?

It depends how many hot dogs he can eat.

 

[B_Ugli]

Marginal Gains is something hyped up when it suits and hyped down when it suits - particularly by Dave Brailsford.

Take the average feature on a pro-riders bike featured on cycling news. Electrical tape on wheels and elsewhere on the bike, marker pen used to disguise tub manufacturers names, cable ties, bits of paper sellotaped to stems. Rubber bands, lizard skins taped to bars. The list goes on.

CN hails these as cutting edge bike enhancements and marginal gains.

No they are not, they look heath robinson (a mess), amateurish and like something out of some DIY disaster video. If it were all about marginal gains and aerodynamics, stems would have an integrated route profile window as standard and all these other "enhancements" would be incorporated into the product design.

If they represent an advantage the manufacturers clearly don't believe it or else they would modify the design (as do clothing manufacturers).

Total and utter BS!!

 

[Handy Bendy Ghandi]

Of course the Marginal Gains "philosophy" wasn't invented by Sky...........................Lord Bald (Clive Woodward) was the first to espouse it with English rugby (do everything 1% better than everyone else and it all adds up)...........of course, the change in size and jawline profile of some of the players at the time was interesting as well........

 

[vedrafjord]

"White orcs on steroids" - Michael Laws