Teams & Riders Mark Cavendish Discussion Thread

[The Hitch]

I don't really know where Rojas came from. There's no way he should be in a discussion with the greats.

If you read the thread Rojas came into the discussion because he made the split that Cavendish didn't at GW.

It wasn't about whether he is great or not, it was about him (apparently) being in a worse position than Cav moments before the split, but then making the split, while Cav didn't, used to argue that it wasn't just luck or lack of it that caused Cav to miss the split.

 

[Caruut]

I don't really know where Rojas came from. There's no way he should be in a discussion with the greats.

Cavendish will probably not rival the all round achievements of the likes of van Looy, Kelly, Maertens etc.

But so what. He is the best at what he does - maybe the best ever. The idea of a more 'rounded' cyclist is more eclectic (a debate for the cycling fan). Wins are what counts. Cav has many. They may not be your favourites. But he has won many races due to an extraordinary ability.

Why don't you do a bit of reading and find out where he came from, then? You've gone all Abdoujaparov on this thread, just sideswiping the discussion by trying to argue something with me that I'm not saying at all.

The discussion of Rojas was about a single specific incident at G-W. When descending, he alleged that Schar left a gap, causing him to miss the cut for the final group that sprinted for the win. When the fact that Rojas, although behind Cav initially, was able to make the cut, some people said that this was Cavendish blaming someone else for his own mistakes.

I was in fact saying that just because both are "sprinters", they should not necessarily be held to the same standards of racing hard enough and what constitutes their own fault. What more can I do to make it clear than I don't think Rojas is a better rider than Cavendish?

 

[Caruut]

The problem you are struggling with is that you think that only one of the two can be a great - despite being quite different. It's like comparing Dickens to Shakespeare.

Here's the simple plan for you:

Tom Boonen: All time great classics rider and sprinter
Mark Cavendish: Phenomenal bunch sprinter - maybe the best ever.

Do you see that two great cyclists can be lauded at the same time?

You, and any others, need to learn to discuss cycling rather than argue about it.

How on earth have you got that from what he wrote? Boonen is neither a better rider of cobbled flats than Cancellara, nor a better sprinter than Cavendish. But he is one of the greatest classics riders ever. That was the point made against you, to which you just made up something else, and argued against that.

 

[Mambo95]

And straight back to putting words in other peoples mouths.

And you, as soon as you see my name, has a pop. Really, grow up.

 

[Mambo95]

And straight back to putting words in other peoples mouths.

And you, as soon as you see my name, has a pop. Really, grow up.
Try to have a discussion for once, rather than an arguement. You'll find it better son.

 

[The Hitch]

And you, as soon as you see my name, has a pop. Really, grow up.

Im not having a pop at you because its you. Half the time your one of the most knowledgable fans on the forum.

The other half of the time, you accuse people of saying things they never did, which can be unpleasant.

Aren't you getting tired of hearing the following from posters you respond to?

You've gone all Abdoujaparov on this thread, just sideswiping the discussion by trying to argue something with me that I'm not saying at all.

 

[Caruut]

And you, as soon as you see my name, has a pop. Really, grow up.
Try to have a discussion for once, rather than an arguement, son

He's always having a pop because you never change. You never address the post - either attack the poster or invent a different post and attack that, but never the actual post.

 

[The Hitch]

He's always having a pop because you never change. You never address the post - either attack the poster or invent a different post and attack that, but never the actual post.

Or invent a different post and attack the poster

 

[CQmanager]

I dont want to be adding any wood to the fire but strictly from a CQ point of view ..

2011
Cav 1469 points
Rojas 1304 points

So in 2011 Cavendish scored whopping 12% more points than Rojas having dedicated team and train where even those like Tony Martin were pulling and working hard to deliver this celebrity to the 200m line so he can unleash his famous double kick.

Just wondering how many points would Rojas scored with 100% of Movistar dedicated to his sprints ...

CQM

 

[Mambo95]

He's always having a pop because you never change. You never address the post - either attack the poster or invent a different post and attack that, but never the actual post.

Go on then. Show me examples of where I have personally attacked a poster. I don't do that.

'The Hitch' often goes personal when he doesn't get his way. I have no problem with that. He's in his early 20s. When I was that age I thought I knew everything too. Now I know five times as much and realise I know nothing. The arrogance of youth, eh.

 

[Caruut]

I dont want to be adding any wood to the fire but strictly from a CQ point of view ..

2011
Cav 1469 points
Rojas 1304 points

So in 2011 Cavendish scored whopping 12% more points than Rojas having dedicated team and train where even those like Tony Martin were pulling and working hard to deliver this celebrity to the 200m line so he can unleash his famous double kick.

Just wondering how many points would Rojas scored with 100% of Movistar dedicated to his sprints ...

CQM

Probably not much more - as has been pointed out, Rojas doesn't rely so much on team-mates to make the final cut. One might also ask - how many points would Rojas have got if Tony Martin hadn't been there to "tow" Cav to the line? Martin's role was usually to set a fast pace to either catch up with attacks or discourage late breaks - that benefits all the sprinters who score points.

On most of the races that Rojas and Cav both scored points, Rojas will also have benefited from the work of Cavendish's team.

 

[Caruut]

Go on then. Show me examples of where I have personally attacked a poster. I don't do that.

'The Hitch' often goes personal when he doesn't get his way. I have no problem with that. He's in his early 20s. When I was that age I thought I knew everything too. Now I know five times as much and realise I know nothing. The arrogance of youth, eh.

See there you go again, you alter what I said slightly. You've changed it from "attack the poster" to "personally attack the poster". When I said "attack the poster" it was a figurative way of saying "find fault with the poster without addressing the point the made". I don't think you tend towards "personal attacks" so much, though some of the stuff on the Doping in Football thread was a bit vicious.

In your response to Hitch's post, instead of addressing the (valid) point he made, you had a go at him for making it, and ignored what he said. That is my example.

 

[CQmanager]

Probably not much more - as has been pointed out, Rojas doesn't rely so much on team-mates to make the final cut. One might also ask - how many points would Rojas have got if Tony Martin hadn't been there to "tow" Cav to the line? Martin's role was usually to set a fast pace to either catch up with attacks or discourage late breaks - that benefits all the sprinters who score points.

On most of the races that Rojas and Cav both scored points, Rojas will also have benefited from the work of Cavendish's team.

Fair enough ...

how about switching teams. Rojas on HTC and Cav with Movistar. Do you think Cav would still have more points than Rojas? I dont think so ...

 

[Mambo95]

Im not having a pop at you because its you. Half the time your one of the most knowledgable fans on the forum.

The other half of the time, you accuse people of saying things they never did, which can be unpleasant.

Aren't you getting tired of hearing the following from posters you respond to?

Here's the problem.

I'm older and more mature than you. I remember a time before the internet. I would just like a conversation.

On the other hand, you, as a younger person, (with a handle of a notorious trouble maker), thinks that everything needs to be an argument. Your hero, while often interesting, was mostly a bit of a knob.

If we met in real life we would get on very well because you would not feel the need to argue and I would converse the same as usual. (I know you have seen me on Bike Radar, so you know what I'm like in a friendly context)

 

[The Hitch]

Go on then. Show me examples of where I have personally attacked a poster. I don't do that.

.

Well here is an example.

right underneath what you just posted you tool

'The Hitch' often goes personal when he doesn't get his way. I have no problem with that. He's in his early 20s. When I was that age I thought I knew everything too. Now I know five times as much and realise I know nothing. The arrogance of youth, eh

Ps since you demand examples in the very same post, why don't you show some yourself?

 

[hrotha]

Go on then. Show me examples of where I have personally attacked a poster. I don't do that.

'The Hitch' often goes personal when he doesn't get his way. I have no problem with that. He's in his early 20s. When I was that age I thought I knew everything too. Now I know five times as much and realise I know nothing. The arrogance of youth, eh.

Funny, you just did in that very post. This is way too meta for my tastes.

 

[Caruut]

Fair enough ...

how about switching teams. Rojas on HTC and Cav with Movistar. Do you think Cav would still have more points than Rojas? I dont think so ...

Rojas would have spent his season leading out Goss, so...

Addressing the actual point you were making, if HTC worked for Rojas, given how close it is, I think he would end up with more points than Cavendish on Movistar.

But, I don't think the current points ratio reflects the difference in quality between the two, so I feel like we're starting from a flawed starting point.

Now if we made the switch, who would have the better season? I think Cav, and I'm not defining a good season by CQ points.

 

[The Hitch]

If we met in real life we would get on very well because you would not feel the need to argue and I would converse the same as usual.)

That would depend on whether you would distort most of the things me and others say as you do on here (to which others can testify

As such, the thread has become less about discussion of what people like myself, Hitch and hrotha have said, and more about discussion of what Mambo95 wants people to believe we've said.

I'm older and more mature than you. I remember a time before the internet. I would just like a conversation.

On the other hand, you, as a younger person, (with a handle of a notorious trouble maker), thinks that everything needs to be an argument

There you go again, performing your internet pschyciatry as you have done so many times before

Yes, you know everything about me because you know my age

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=790173&postcount=51

Here is my diagnosis of "the problem".

Mambo just saw that this thread was in the Clinic, and went on his usual crusade, only skim-reading the posts enough to know what he could mischaracterise..

(I know you have seen me on Bike Radar, so you know what I'm like in a friendly context

Why, is someone posing as me on bike radar?

If you want "friendly" perhaps you shouldn't accuse me of being anti dead people

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Same **** different day

 

[Caruut]

Here's the problem.

I'm older and I think I'm more mature than you.

Fixed to show the real problem.

 

[karlboss]

I had loads of respect for Cav in 2009 winning MSR. I don't care how much of a pure sprinter you are to ride 300km, make it over the Poggio and win, suggests there's a little more there. But that was 2009.

 

[spalco]

I dont want to be adding any wood to the fire but strictly from a CQ point of view ..

2011
Cav 1469 points
Rojas 1304 points

So in 2011 Cavendish scored whopping 12% more points than Rojas having dedicated team and train where even those like Tony Martin were pulling and working hard to deliver this celebrity to the 200m line so he can unleash his famous double kick.

Just wondering how many points would Rojas scored with 100% of Movistar dedicated to his sprints ...

CQM

Interesting. But "points" aren't as sexy as wins in the end.

 

[burning]

Well Rojas beat Andy in a mountain stage convincingly, so that makes him an allrounder

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Someone brought Rojas into the discussion a few pages back. And you can't bring Rojas into any real discussion. He's a decent journeyman pro. Like many before. He's an all rounder who is not good at anything.

Rojas only came into the discussion because Gent-Wevelgem was brought up. And there, Rojas was behind Cavendish at the start of the descent where the gap was made, and yet when the split happened, Rojas was in front of it and Cavendish was behind it.

I don't really know where Rojas came from. There's no way he should be in a discussion with the greats.

While you may trump up your maturity against us young'uns, evidently your comprehension still needs a bit of work.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Cool it, everyone. I don't have time to do much more than fuss right now, but behave yourselves or face the consequences.

You may consider this an official warning.

Susan