Teams & Riders Mark Cavendish Discussion Thread

[pmcg76]

Based on what notoin are guys like Abdou, Zabel or McEwen any better than Greipel? They didn't win more despite never even racing against a guy like Cavendish. How is Zabel better than Sagan?

No idea what you are saying here. Don't think I compared Greipel to those other guys or Zabel to Sagan. My point was if you list out contenders for Top 10 Sprinters of last 30 years, Cipo, Abdu, Zabel, Steels, McEwen, Petacchi, Kittel, Greipel, Sagan will all be in with a shout along with some of the current guys. Point being all those guys overlapped with someone else on the list in their prime All I wanted to know was what sprinter would you consider for such a list that raced from 08-11 in their prime other than Cav?

 

[pmcg76]

There was just a debate of Farrar being a top sprinter on his day. Without Cavendish all of the wins would be spread out like it is now. Would we be saying that there was a weak era of sprinting or that everyone is good? Again, Cavendish had completed the Giro before going onto the Tour, something the Germans never did. Kittel’s team got away for 2-3 years of not working (there was 1 stage in 2013 that Shiimano had spent 0% at the front until 10k) in his prime allowing them to be fresher for him. Greipel has shown to be lost without his lead out the majority of the time and Kittel has performed on and off without it.

These sprinters have been more spread out in wins, when before they were struggling to get any at the top level. The same argument can be said towards them.

Before the Tour many picked Cavendish to win stages, the question was his endurance.

Yeah, but we already know the answer to this because even without Cav, Kittel and Greipel still destroyed those guys. Maybe do this backwards, Kittel won 14 stages over 4 Tours, now take away Cav, Greipel and Sagan from those Tours. How many stages would Kittel likely have won?

 

[jmdirt]

Who ever said Cav was not that great? There are many people who have Cav far and above anyone else as the greatest sprinter of all time and I don't agree, will he be deservedly in any conversation of greatest ever? Of course, I just don't see it as clear cut as others for the reasons outlined.

As for the silly comparison to Merckx. Cav was top sprinter 08-11 and 2016. Other years are debatable. Merckx was pretty much undisputed top dog for 10 years solid, so yeah no comparison at all.

He was only undisputed because there was no one else for those 10 years.

FYI: I'm not comparing him to EM, I'm creating a parallel argument.
"Cav was only good because no one else was = Eddy was only good because no one else was."

 

[Manx Felipe]

Who ever said Cav was not that great? There are many people who have Cav far and above anyone else as the greatest sprinter of all time and I don't agree, will he be deservedly in any conversation of greatest ever? Of course, I just don't see it as clear cut as others for the reasons outlined.

As for the silly comparison to Merckx. Cav was top sprinter 08-11 and 2016. Other years are debatable. Merckx was pretty much undisputed top dog for 10 years solid, so yeah no comparison at all.

Imagine how many wins Cav might have had if HTC/Colombia had kept going. Everyone knows that Team Sky was a marriage of convenience and given Sky's focus on the GC with Wiggo, Cav's 3 stage wins that year were nothing short of miraculous.

Then in 2013 he moved to Quickstep and they weren't really set up for sprint finishes at that time whereas Kittel's team were so it's understandable he had a few baron years, especially considering his crash in 2014 too.

End of the day, Kittel and Greipel are the only ones who have come close to Cav with the former being on a par, if not better on his day, but his day is over now.

As for Cipo, Abdou etc, back in the 1990s the first week was dedicated to sprint finishes, whereas during Cav's time they have more uphill finishes in the first week for the likes of Sagan and Alaphillipe so it's hard to compare but I think only sentimentality would make anyone think those guys were better than Cav.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Uh, it's quite clear that the present field is horrible. We know this because neither Bouhanni nor Philipsen has won much in the past year. Whereas the field was quite strong in 2019.

Just like Cav didn’t win much in the past year. Are the riders strong or there is just no dominant rider?

Yeah, but we already know the answer to this because even without Cav, Kittel and Greipel still destroyed those guys. Maybe do this backwards, Kittel won 14 stages over 4 Tours, now take away Cav, Greipel and Sagan from those Tours. How many stages would Kittel likely have won?

Exactly these same riders that we’re saying are the cream of the crop now were getting beat before. Why the wins are more spread out.
Cav, Kittel, and Greipel are all better than who Cipo faced. Who Cipo regularly beat.
Then let’s take Kittel, Greipel, and Sagan out of those Tours for Cavendish? 31 already and could be pushing 50. More GT stage wins and points classifications than Cipo as he’d have full course at 2012-2016 Tours.
Bennati, Farrar, and Hushovd would have more GT wins in those years without Cavendish present. Farrar could have lasted longer without injuries.

Sprinters Cav has beat besides Cipo, Abdou, and other choice riders. There’s a point of riders being far better than the others and gaining more wins while the others middle of the pack sharing.

Cipollini 57 wins
Tour de France
12 individual stages (1993-1999)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (1992, 1997, 2002)
42 individual stages (1989-2003)
Vuelta a España
3 individual stages (2002)

Cavendish 49 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (2011)
31 individual stages
(2008–2013, 2015, 2016, 2021)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2013)
15 individual stages
(2008, 2009, 2011–2013)
2 TTT stages (2009, 2011)
Vuelta a España
Points classification (2010)
3 individual stages (2010)
1 TTT stage (2010)

Petacchi 48 wins (53)
Tour de France
Points classification (2010)
6 individual stages (2003, 2010)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2004)
22 individual stages (2003–2005, 2009, 2011)
Vuelta a España
Points classification (2005)
20 individual stages (2000, 2002–2005, 2007, 2010)

McEwan 24 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (2002, 2004, 2006)
12 individual stages
Giro d'Italia
12 individual stages

Greipel 22 wins
Tour de France
11 individual stages (2011–2016)
Giro d'Italia
7 individual stages (2008, 2010, 2015, 2016, 2017)
Vuelta a España
Points classification (2009)
4 individual stages (2009)

Zabel 20 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (1996–2001)
12 individual stages
Vuelta a España
Points classification (2002–2004)
8 individual stages

Kittel 19 wins
Tour de France
14 individual stages (2013, 2014, 2016, 2017)
Giro d'Italia
4 individual stages (2014, 2016)
Vuelta a España
1 individual stage (2011)

Sagan 18 wins
Tour de France
Points classification
(2012 – 2016, 2018, 2019)
Combativity award (2016)
12 individual stages
(2012, 2013, 2016 – 2019)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2021)
2 individual stages (2020, 2021)
Vuelta a España
4 individual stages (2011, 2015)

Abdoujaparov 17 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (1991, 1993, 1994)
9 individual stages (1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (1994)
Intergiro classification (1994)
1 individual stage (1994)
Vuelta a España
Points classification (1992)
7 individual stages (1992, 1993)

Valverde 17 wins
Tour de France
4 individual stages (2005, 2008, 2012)
Giro d'Italia
1 individual stage (2016)
Vuelta a España
General classification (2009)
Points classification (2012, 2013, 2015, 2018)
Combination classification (2003, 2009, 2012)
12 individual stages[N 1]
2 TTT stages (2012, 2014)

Rodriquez 14 wins
Tour de France
3 individual stages (2010, 2015)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2012)
2 individual stages (2012)
Vuelta a España
Mountains classification (2005)
Combination classification (2015)
9 individual stages (2003, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015)

Hushovd 14 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (2005, 2009)
10 individual stages (2002, 2004, 2006–2011)
2 TTT stages (2001, 2011)
Giro d'Italia
1 individual stage (2007)
Vuelta a España
Points classification (2006)
3 individual stages (2005, 2006, 2010)

Froome 14 wins
Tour de France
General classification
(2013, 2015, 2016, 2017)
Mountains classification (2015)
7 individual stages (2012, 2013, 2015, 2016)
Giro d'Italia
General classification (2018)
Mountains classification (2018)
2 individual stages (2018)
Vuelta a España
General classification (2011, 2017)
Points classification (2017)
Combination classification (2011, 2017)
5 individual stages (2011, 2016, 2017)
1 TTT stage (2016)


Bennati 11 wins
Grand Tours
Tour de France
2 individual stages (2007)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2008)
3 individual stages (2008)
Vuelta a España
Points classification (2007)
6 individual stages (2007, 2008, 2011, 2012)

Degenkolb 11 wins
Tour de France
1 individual stage (2018)
Giro d'Italia
1 individual stage (2013)
Vuelta a España
Points classification (2014)
10 individual stages (2012, 2014, 2015)

Ewan 11 wins
Tour de France
5 individual stages (2019, 2020)
Giro d'Italia
5 individual stages (2017, 2019, 2021)
Vuelta a España
1 individual stage (2015)

Freire 11 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (2008)
4 individual stages
Vuelta a España
7 individual stages

Contador 10 wins (12)
Tour de France
General classification (2007, 2009)
Young rider classification (2007)
3 individual stages (2007, 2009)
Giro d'Italia
General classification (2008, 2015)
Vuelta a España
General classification (2008, 2012, 2014)
Combination classification (2008, 2014)
7 individual stages (2008, 2012, 2014, 2017)

Steels 9 wins
Tour de France, 9 stages

Viviani 9 wins
Tour de France
1 individual stage (2019)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2018)
5 individual stages (2015, 2018)
Vuelta a España
3 individual stages (2018)

Boonen 8 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (2007)
6 individual stages (2004, 2005, 2007)
Vuelta a España
2 individual stages (2008)

Bennett 8 wins
Tour de France
Points classification (2020)
2 individual stages (2020)
Giro d'Italia
3 individual stages (2018)
Vuelta a España
3 individual stages (2019, 2020)

Demare 7 wins
Tour de France
2 individual stages (2017, 2018)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2020)
5 individual stages (2019, 2020)

Gaviria 7 wins
Tour de France
2 individual stages (2018)
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2017)
5 individual stages (2017, 2019)

Cunego 6 wins
Giro d'Italia
General classification (2004)
4 individual stages (2004)
Tour de France
Young rider classification (2006)
Vuelta a España
2 individual stages (2009)

Farrar 6 wins
Tour de France
1 individual stage (2011)
1 TTT stage (2011)
Giro d'Italia
2 individual stages (2010)
1 TTT stage (2012)
Vuelta a España
3 individual stages (2009, 2010)

Sanchez 6 wins
Tour de France
Mountains classification (2011)
1 individual stage (2011)
1 TTT stage (2015)
Vuelta a España
5 individual stages (2005, 2006, 2007)

Bouhanni 6 wins
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2014)
3 individual stages (2014)
Vuelta a España
3 individual stages (2014, 2018)

Voeckler 4 wins
Tour de France
Mountains classification (2012)
4 individual stages (2009, 2010, 2012)

Groenwegen 4 wins
Tour de France
4 individual stages (2017, 2018, 2019)
1 TTT stage (2019)

Kristoff 4 wins
Tour de France
4 individual stages (2014, 2018, 2020)

EBH 4 wins
Tour de France
3 individual stages (2011, 2017)
Giro d'Italia
1 individual stage (2009)

Ackermann 4 wins
Giro d'Italia
Points classification (2019)
2 individual stages (2019)
Vuelta a España
2 individual stage (2020)

Schleck 3 wins
Tour de France
General classification (2010)
Young rider classification (2008, 2009, 2010)
3 individual stages (2010, 2011)
Giro d'Italia
Young rider classification (2007)

Merlier 2 wins
Tour de France
1 individual stage (2021)
Giro d'Italia
1 individual stage (2021)

Modolo 2 wins

Giro d'Italia
2 individual stages (2015)

Jakobsen 2 wins
Vuelta a España
2 individual stages (2019)

Goss 2 wins
Giro d'Italia
2 individual stages (2010, 2012)


Philipsen 1 win
Vuelta a España
1 individual stage (2020)

Ferrari 1 win
Giro d'Italia
1 individual stage (2012)

Guardini 1 win
Giro d'Italia
1 individual stage (2012)

Ciolek 1 win
Vuelta a España
1 individual stage (2009)

 

[SHAD0W93]

Imagine how many wins Cav might have had if HTC/Colombia had kept going. Everyone knows that Team Sky was a marriage of convenience and given Sky's focus on the GC with Wiggo, Cav's 3 stage wins that year were nothing short of miraculous.

Then in 2013 he moved to Quickstep and they weren't really set up for sprint finishes at that time whereas Kittel's team were so it's understandable he had a few baron years, especially considering his crash in 2014 too.

End of the day, Kittel and Greipel are the only ones who have come close to Cav with the former being on a par, if not better on his day, but his day is over now.

As for Cipo, Abdou etc, back in the 1990s the first week was dedicated to sprint finishes, whereas during Cav's time they have more uphill finishes in the first week for the likes of Sagan and Alaphillipe so it's hard to compare but I think only sentimentality would make anyone think those guys were better than Cav.

“But than all of his wins are from HTC being a dominant train. He can’t win by himself.”
Quickstep tried being HTC, they didn’t have the manpower or the experience. Cav still should have went here in 2012 though instead of Sky.

 

[Manx Felipe]

“But than all of his wins are from HTC being a dominant train. He can’t win by himself.”
Quickstep tried being HTC, they didn’t have the manpower or the experience. Cav still should have went here in 2012 though instead of Sky.

Agreed. I still rank the stage he won in 2013 when echelon's caused a split in the peloton as my favourite. The likes of Cipo, Abdou, and Zabel would never have won a stage like that.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Agreed. I still rank the stage he won in 2013 when echelon's caused a split in the peloton as my favourite. The likes of Cipo, Abdou, and Zabel would never have won a stage like that.

That, stage 18 2012, stage 18 2009, and stage 5 2011 are most impressive at the Tour alone and would want to see any sprinter try and replicate for where he was positioned.

 

[FroomeWagon]

Cav now favorite to win the green jersey.

Tour de France Odds

 

[Leinster]

Imagine how many wins Cav might have had if HTC/Colombia had kept going. Everyone knows that Team Sky was a marriage of convenience and given Sky's focus on the GC with Wiggo, Cav's 3 stage wins that year were nothing short of miraculous.

Then in 2013 he moved to Quickstep and they weren't really set up for sprint finishes at that time whereas Kittel's team were so it's understandable he had a few baron years, especially considering his crash in 2014 too.

End of the day, Kittel and Greipel are the only ones who have come close to Cav with the former being on a par, if not better on his day, but his day is over now.

As for Cipo, Abdou etc, back in the 1990s the first week was dedicated to sprint finishes, whereas during Cav's time they have more uphill finishes in the first week for the likes of Sagan and Alaphillipe so it's hard to compare but I think only sentimentality would make anyone think those guys were better than Cav.

Imagine how many wins Cav might have had if HTC/Colombia had kept going. Everyone knows that Team Sky was a marriage of convenience and given Sky's focus on the GC with Wiggo, Cav's 3 stage wins that year were nothing short of miraculous.

Then in 2013 he moved to Quickstep and they weren't really set up for sprint finishes at that time whereas Kittel's team were so it's understandable he had a few baron years, especially considering his crash in 2014 too.

End of the day, Kittel and Greipel are the only ones who have come close to Cav with the former being on a par, if not better on his day, but his day is over

As for Cipo, Abdou etc, back in the 1990s the first week was dedicated to sprint finishes, whereas during Cav's time they have more uphill finishes in the first week for the likes of Sagan and Alaphillipe so it's hard to compare but I think only sentimentality would make anyone think those guys were better than Cav.

Tbf to Greipel, he missed a couple of years of the TdF because he was teammates with Cav, and he was probably the other best sprinter in the peloton at the time.

Also, tbf to Abdu, he rode at a time when the pro peloton didn’t have “catching the break” down to the exact science that HTC later developed. He won a lot of sprints for 2nd, 4th, 6th, 2-3 minutes behind the winner, rubbing shoulders with Kelly, Vanderaerden, Ludwig et al, who would all fight for any scraps the race would give them, and in an era where a rider like Jalabert had a crash, got scared out of sprinting,* and was a good enough rider to then go and win Monuments and a GT. I’m not sure how many bunch sprints Abdu actually won, but it was a lot more than just his stage wins.

*This is not to say that Abdu wasn’t a significant reason why sprinting in that era was so scary...

 

[Red Rick]

I'm really gonna need an extended highlight video of Abdu

 

[King Boonen]

I'm really gonna need an extended highlight video of Abdu

If you can find one that's actually viewable on a modern screen... I don't want to relive those crashes.

 

[canarydan23]

Ewan, Groenewegen, Viviani (QS edition) and Van Aert were destroyed by Cavendish?

Groenewegen was destroyed by Cav in TdF 2016 and Viviani was comprehensively destroyed by Cav in Giro 2013.

 

[Andy262]

It's a shame Ewan has crashed out, because he was the race's clearest benchmark for generation now. But I don't think he'd have had it all his own way with Cav in the form he's in and a stronger train.

It's worth watching scheldeprijs again because with Bennett being #1 it's pretty clear Cav held back a little there.

Hoping for #32 today anyway.

 

[jmdirt]

I'm really gonna need an extended highlight video of Abdu

That dud used to completely rip his (spindly steel) bike to shreds in the final 300 m! I bet they had to put new bars on his bike after a flat stage! Elbows everywhere! Anyway, he was fun to watch, but he was no Cav!

 

[canarydan23]

#32

The guy is a genius as well, to have the presence of mind after a stressful sprint like that to recall and implement his 2008 celebration!

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

50 GT stages in the bag and looking very tasty for the Green jersey with a serious lead on Sagan now and more stages that suit Cav than Peter left.

 

[DanielSong39]

He keeps answering every question
Cavendish for green?

 

[SafeBet]

-2

 

[SHAD0W93]

#32

The guy is a genius as well, to have the presence of mind after a stressful sprint like that to recall and implement his 2008 celebration!

Crazier since he almost forgot it in 2011 and threw it up late.

 

[SlickMongoose]

He keeps answering every question
Cavendish for green?

If he can make it over the mountains.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

On some of the arguments in this thread: You can think both that Cav is the greatest sprinter of all time (I do) and that it’s great to see him win on the biggest stage again (I do) while also being aware both that there was a period of his career where the competition was unusually weak and that the competition in this Tour is extremely bad,

 

[Pinot's goat]

To think there were people here who thought Morkov and Ballerini were better options in the sprint than Cavendish. He is the big favourite for green now.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

To think there were people here who thought Morkov and Ballerini were better options in the sprint than Cavendish. He is the big favourite for green now.

Looking at the last few years, 2nd place has never got 300 points. So with Cav on 148 already after 2 stage wins from 6 stages, you'd say winning 2 of the remaining 4 chances and continuing to join in with intermediate sprints would put him on an unbeatable score. He's already 52 clear of Matthews and 76 clear of Sagan.

I count 5 chances maximum for them to try for intermediate points that Cav can't also contest, vs 4 more stages where Cav has a good chance to take 20-40 points on them. Biggest threat left looks like the timecut.

 

[Taxus4a]

Happy for him. One of the best sprinters of all time.

I show him last year out of the peloton in a second category climb at Vuelta a Burgos, I was on my bike opossite of the race thinking all the riders has passed..But suddendty Cavs was there, quite fat IMO for a cyclist. It was the first climb after the pandemia in pro world cycling. But things can change a lot in one year.
He is a nice guy. I was once at Vuelta a España finish party in Madrid. He was there. I though he was a rude boy according how he sprint, but he behave with everybody very polite and quite.