Mark Cavendish excuses for 2016

[Ramon Koran]

'I need 27 riders in my lead out train to win, I can't be expected to win with 8"

Hog, but this is not correct.

I think his first season, when he had the tete-a-tete with Greipel on T-Mobile, he went to one of the races in Belgium, that leads into Harelbeke, I think it was Dreidaagse de Panne, he is only 20, he could have been 21, and he has no support, a decimated bunch of about 12 are the remainder of the peel from the peloton, and he is fighting for the wheels on the messy finish over the last 400 metres, and going thru a maze of riders like Robbie Mcewen would. And Cav won. I think he won on account of the fact Francesco Chicchi was undergeared, for some reason Chicchi had it in a 12 or something, and could not wind up a big enough gear. Chicchi was underrated for his speed, I think there was a Paris Tours where Chicchi came second or something, but on the finish he was doing 2 to 1, on everyone, if it was mano-a-mano he would have won by a dozen lengths. Petacchi said he was quicker than Allessandro, in training Chicchi would win, Petacchi could not beat him. But Chicchi was not a sprinter, he could not win. Cav is a sprinter, he wins, and his terminal velocity is unpeered.

Also, the sprint in 2009 San Remo when he beat Heinrich Haussler, he had not help on the Via Roma, he came from way back, that with Robbie McEwen's London stage 1 TdF sprint in 2007 is the best ever sprint I have seen.

Cav never needed a leadout train. He was just as skilful at navigating a sprint as McEwen. Cav is also the fairest sprinter i have seen, he never came off his line. (ok, you can give me two or three examples, and the crash by HH).

I will say it again. Cav is GOAT

No, he is not. Cippo is better, and also Freddy Maertens

No really they aren't. They are good but to compare them with someone like Cavendish is like comparing Quintana with pantani or messi with maradona. They might be arguments that they are better, more goals, born in altitude, not using epo. But anyone comparing them sees the difference it's that spark that maradona used to ignite Argentina, that fighting spirit in pantani. For cav the difference is easy just look at him sprint it is/was perfection. No need to add anything else. Maybe cippo or marteans won more stages Giro or whatever but they didn't have the spark that light that makes GOAT.

 

[Tonton]

Cav and Cippo (or Petacchi), same story, same train, same inability to climb my drive way. Sean Kelly, or Fons de Wolf didn't need guys to carry them on a stretcher to the 1K mark. Maertens? Watch his WC (beating Saronni and Hinault) win: that's a stuff of legend against great champs. Cav is great but not that good. Black Album .

 

[blackcat]

Cav 99 San Remo. G.O.A.T

and i am not even a Frodo fan.

and Mcewen still had a better jump in the year he retired, but the goal of the sprint is to win, not who has the better jump and explosivity. Cav is imperious and no one holds a candle. definitely not Cipo, and not Petacchi, unless the measurement is how many podium girls you have bedded, and then p'raps Cipo holds the record.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

so what is the reference to Tyler Farrar?

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

Cav 99 San Remo. G.O.A.T

and i am not even a Frodo fan.

and Mcewen still had a better jump in the year he retired, but the goal of the sprint is to win, not who has the better jump and explosivity. Cav is imperious and no one holds a candle. definitely not Cipo, and not Petacchi, unless the measurement is how many podium girls you have bedded, and then p'raps Cipo holds the record.

Cippo won much more than Cav, also Petacchi won more, so I don't know what are you talking about! Also there were some pretty fast guys in the past, who didn't had(need) trains to lead them, but still won more than Cav. to name a few: Rik Van Steenbergen, Andre Darrigade, Miguel Poblet, Rik Van Looy, Freddy Maertens... Go check those guys, than return and tell me who the GOAT really is!

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Cippo won much more than Cav, also Petacchi won more, so I don't know what are you talking about! Also there were some pretty fast guys in the past, who didn't had(need) trains to lead them, but still won more than Cav. to name a few: Rik Van Steenbergen, Andre Darrigade, Miguel Poblet, Rik Van Looy, Freddy Maertens... Go check those guys, than return and tell me who the GOAT really is!

$hit, you may as well pick Zabel or Freire then <eyesroll>

tell me who the GOAT really is!

Cav.

Cav is GOAT.

imagine if Cav only raced in France, or only raced the lowlands, or only raced in Spain, or only raced in Italy, and he was given the same train every race.

But Cav only raced the cat 1 races or classics or 2 cat tours 2.1 cat races. He never picked up dozens of wins in the $hit small races, but he still picked up his twenty wins a year by taking 12 Grand Tour stages or more. There are lots of quick guys, Steels, Quaranta, Chicchi, Blijlevens, Moncassin, Abdujaparov but there will only be one GOAT, it aint Petacchi or Cipollini, puhleese, they were fantastic sprinters and winners and showman, but they are not Cav. And I am not a Frodo fan, I am just saying it like it is. I was a fan of Cooke and Mcewen, but they have nothing on Cav.

and why the mods edited my post on here I do not know, it was not overt, it was integral to the damn post, and my efforts at offering insight were lost. Look at the contribution of mine to this thread... for chrissakes moderators ... a little leeway

 

[blackcat]

Driedaagse de panne 2008 Cavendish stage 2 April 2 was when he won with no help. riding for High Road then, but Chicchi was undergeared, cant remember if Chicchi was still on Fassa or was on a different team l(ike Liqui or Lampre), atleast I remember and think Francesco Chicchi bing undergeared for some reason, ask Cav and he will know, and he prolly is in a position of giving credit now, when he is overwhelmingly the GOAT.

Here is Mcewen on Cav. He mimics my position of the CdA (aero profile) of Cav,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM7kAekhtM0
Mcewen is talking about Heiko Salzwedal wrt to Cav (Heiko Salzwedal the road and track coach from Germany)

this was about the second most impressive spint Cav made, I think this was a headwind, he went from about 300metres when Ciolek had pulled off. (I actually remember it as Freire staying in his slipstream, jumping, then going into the wind, they retiring back to Cav's slipstream, seems the video does not indicate this however) I still think it was a headwind sprint tho
stage 5 Tour de France 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdQ1ifV3MC0

Cavendish chasing down Haussler on the Via Roma, the only sprint that has any competition would be the Mcewen London stage 1 in 2007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw1MHv4uDGY


"Kenny Robert van Hummel, dangerous, very very dangerous" Cav, pre- media training, and a tad hypocritical, it was not KRVH who made the error that day, it was his own High Road teammates, ask the poster on here Libertine Seguros, she knows everything

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Cippo won much more than Cav, also Petacchi won more, so I don't know what are you talking about! Also there were some pretty fast guys in the past, who didn't had(need) trains to lead them, but still won more than Cav. to name a few: Rik Van Steenbergen, Andre Darrigade, Miguel Poblet, Rik Van Looy, Freddy Maertens... Go check those guys, than return and tell me who the GOAT really is!

$hit, you may as well pick Zabel or Freire then <eyesroll>

tell me who the GOAT really is!

Cav.

Cav is GOAT.

imagine if Cav only raced in France, or only raced the lowlands, or only raced in Spain, or only raced in Italy, and he was given the same train every race.

But Cav only raced the cat 1 races or classics or 2 cat tours 2.1 cat races. He never picked up dozens of wins in the $hit small races, but he still picked up his twenty wins a year by taking 12 Grand Tour stages or more. There are lots of quick guys, Steels, Quaranta, Chicchi, Blijlevens, Moncassin, Abdujaparov but there will only be one GOAT, it aint Petacchi or Cipollini, puhleese, they were fantastic sprinters and winners and showman, but they are not Cav. And I am not a Frodo fan, I am just saying it like it is. I was a fan of Cooke and Mcewen, but they have nothing on Cav.

and why the mods edited my post on here I do not know, it was not overt, it was integral to the damn post, and my efforts at offering insight were lost. Look at the contribution of mine to this thread... for chrissakes moderators ... a little leeway

Cippo vs Cav
191 career wins > 139 career wins
57 GT stage wins(42 Giro,12 Tour,3 Vuelta) > 44 GT stages(15G,26T,3V)
42 Giro stages(all time record) > 26 Tour stages (3rd all time)
3x Points Jersey = 3x Points Jersey
WC Road Race = WC Road Race
1x Milan-San Remo (2nd twice) > 1xMilan-San Remo
3x Gent-Wevelgem > 2xKuurne-Brussels-Kuurne
2x Scheldeprijs < 3xScheldeprijs
1x E3 Harelbeke > 1xClasica de Almeria
1x National Championship = 1xNat.Championship
34 stages of Major races (PN,TA,Romandie,Catalunya) > 12 World Tour stages

To resume: Cippo win more, and Cippo win more quality races
To conclude: Cippolini was better sprinter/rider than Mark Cavendish
To add: And I don't even consider Mario Cipollini the best sprinter of all time. In my humble opinion that honor should go either to Rik Van Steenbergen or Freddy Maertens

 

[Libertine Seguros]

A few years ago many were operating under the assumption that because he was comparatively young and so dominant, Cav would demolish all these records. He may still beat some of them, but he's no longer the fastest guy around, he's been usurped. He's proven that when he's on form he doesn't need the train to win, but now he's got to do what Ale-Jet did and prove that he can win by being the smartest rather than being the fastest. Ale-Jet was arguably the only sprinter who could legit claim to have beaten Cavendish in top form at the big races at his peak; Cav now has to assume that role.

Anyway, Freddy Maertens is the best sprinter of all time. Maybe somebody will beat him one day, I thought a few years ago maybe Cav would be that guy. Maybe he still will, but I'm no longer as expectant as I was of it.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

A few years ago many were operating under the assumption that because he was comparatively young and so dominant, Cav would demolish all these records. He may still beat some of them, but he's no longer the fastest guy around, he's been usurped. He's proven that when he's on form he doesn't need the train to win, but now he's got to do what Ale-Jet did and prove that he can win by being the smartest rather than being the fastest. Ale-Jet was arguably the only sprinter who could legit claim to have beaten Cavendish in top form at the big races at his peak; Cav now has to assume that role.

Anyway, Freddy Maertens is the best sprinter of all time. Maybe somebody will beat him one day, I thought a few years ago maybe Cav would be that guy. Maybe he still will, but I'm no longer as expectant as I was of it.

thanks LS for your contribution

one person i respect on this god awful place of a forum.

undoubtedly, the best poster on this board and forum, the Clinic too.

 

[blackcat]

Cipo's best win, imo, his Ghent-Wevelgem win.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

Cavendish chasing down Haussler on the Via Roma, the only sprint that has any competition would be the Mcewen London stage 1 in 2007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw1MHv4uDGY

Kinda hard to see on that video, better if you watch this one from ~11 mins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqcCLHukzsE

Completely agree that it was one of the best sprints I've seen (I wouldn't go as far as to say Cav is the GOAT, although that might change if he can come back on track at Dimension)

 

[bassano]

blackcat: no matter how many more pages of glory for Cavendish you will write, numbers are quite clear, and they are saying that Cipolini is better, they both won MSR and WC but GT victories of Cavendish are still not enough in compare to Cipolini and Cipolini won 3 times Gent Wewelgem to addition so explain me why you think Cav is better
he still can beat some of records he have time to that but I do not believe in it so much
and btw. yes, I am more apreciating even Zabel or Freire because just look how many important races they won, stage on GT is not so big deal anyway but when you are talking only about sprinters and pure sprinters Cavendish is better then them but still not enough to Cipolini

 

[Nick C.]

I know I probably beat this dead horse, but who was the best in his prime sprinter Cav competed against when he was the #1 sprinter? Tyler Farrar, a finding his way Greipel, let a gap go every time the sprint starts Thor, near retirement Petacchi and Freiere? Petacchi also has less than stellar competition. But look upthread, either we all are of the same age and recall the same guys or Cipo, for one had some major competition (Zabel, Steels, Mocassin, Abdu ...). Van Steenbergen with three worlds and IIRC MSR and PR has an impressive palmares. Cav and his teams had the Tour de France sprint down pat. I will grant them that, but then half the sprinters #2-6 in the world were on his leadout train (Goss, Greipel, Ciolek) not to mention Renshaw it is hard to beat.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

blackcat: no matter how many more pages of glory for Cavendish you will write, numbers are quite clear, and they are saying that Cipolini is better, they both won MSR and WC but GT victories of Cavendish are still not enough in compare to Cipolini and Cipolini won 3 times Gent Wewelgem to addition so explain me why you think Cav is better
he still can beat some of records he have time to that but I do not believe in it so much
and btw. yes, I am more apreciating even Zabel or Freire because just look how many important races they won, stage on GT is not so big deal anyway but when you are talking only about sprinters and pure sprinters Cavendish is better then them but still not enough to Cipolini

Freire and Zabel are better riders than Cav, but as a sprinters there's no contest

 

[blackcat]

Re:

blackcat no matter how many more pages of glory for Cavendish you will write, numbers are quite clear, and they are saying that Cipolini is better, they both won MSR and WC but GT victories of Cavendish are still not enough in compare to Cipolini and Cipolini won 3 times Gent Wewelgem to addition so explain me why you think Cav is better
he still can beat some of records he have time to that but I do not believe in it so much
and btw. yes, I am more apreciating even Zabel or Freire because just look how many important races they won, stage on GT is not so big deal anyway but when you are talking only about sprinters and pure sprinters Cavendish is better then them but still not enough to Cipolini

numbers inandof themself never told the story.

Ask Heiko, ask Mcewen, ask his rivals, ask riders who went across multiple eras like Boonen and Zabel. They will answer one person, the little guy from the Isle of Man

Cav is a w@nker, no doubt, but he is also GOAT.

He beat no one else, because he was too good to allow a rival. He managed to retire-off Mcewen, he saw of Ciolek when Ciolek moved teams, he sh1tted on Greipel, He would beat Forster, Boonen, Steegmans, Theo Bos, Petacchi, Napolitano, he retired-off Freire. His embarrassed Goss. He retires-off Petacchi.

If Daniele Bennati rode the same period as Boonen and Steegmans, without Cav coming onto the scene and dominating, Bennati would go up to the same tier as Cipollini and Petacchi, Bennati was that good. But Bennati could not match it with Cav. Cav was toooooo good.

*retires-off is a verb, a neologism, - to make one retired.

you can add up the victories and say "Cipo won more".

Well, in his prime, Mcewen could beat Cipo. Zabel could beat Cipo, and did so consistently. I would have Zabel over Cipo.

In Cav's prime from 2010 to 2013, no one could beat Cav mano-a-mano.

And I reckon his terminal velocity is still the quickest, so he can get ascendancy over Greipel and Kittel.

heck, I would have Freire above Cipo.


But I would have no one above Frodo (aka Cav)

 

[blackcat]

oh, its also bull$hit that Cav had the train of Ciolek, Goss et al for his career.


Ciolek was only about 3 years, and would still ride a different race schedule for his own opportunites, Goss similarly, may be one more year, and not quite as many opportunities with a different scedule.

Renshaw is probably around 6 years with Cav now, mostly as the pilot(final man) and has done a better job than I thought he would do, and became p'raps the best pilot there has been, much credit to Cav because he finishes off the good work done by Renshaw et al. Tho Steegmans had one superior year at the TdF with Mcewen.

Seiberg was there for a significant time for Cav too, and Klier as a road captain and with Eisel one of the final 3 or 4 men.

But frankly, it is BS the argument about Cav's leadout train, the same could be said for Velo and Petacchi, and the Cipo leadout too.

Cipo also had Martinello Lombardi Sacchi Velo

 

[bassano]

blackcat: it seems really useless to answer your posts the same you will never listen and you have your right
so many nonsense you are able to write, and still you can not answer how is possible that when he was so unbeatable in 3 years, he won so few compare to someone else

 

[bala v]

Re: Re:

blackcat no matter how many more pages of glory for Cavendish you will write, numbers are quite clear, and they are saying that Cipolini is better, they both won MSR and WC but GT victories of Cavendish are still not enough in compare to Cipolini and Cipolini won 3 times Gent Wewelgem to addition so explain me why you think Cav is better
he still can beat some of records he have time to that but I do not believe in it so much
and btw. yes, I am more apreciating even Zabel or Freire because just look how many important races they won, stage on GT is not so big deal anyway but when you are talking only about sprinters and pure sprinters Cavendish is better then them but still not enough to Cipolini

numbers inandof themself never told the story.

Ask Heiko, ask Mcewen, ask his rivals, ask riders who went across multiple eras like Boonen and Zabel. They will answer one person, the little guy from the Isle of Man

Cav is a w@nker, no doubt, but he is also GOAT.

He beat no one else, because he was too good to allow a rival. He managed to retire-off Mcewen, he saw of Ciolek when Ciolek moved teams, he sh1tted on Greipel, He would beat Forster, Boonen, Steegmans, Theo Bos, Petacchi, Napolitano, he retired-off Freire. His embarrassed Goss. He retires-off Petacchi.

If Daniele Bennati rode the same period as Boonen and Steegmans, without Cav coming onto the scene and dominating, Bennati would go up to the same tier as Cipollini and Petacchi, Bennati was that good. But Bennati could not match it with Cav. Cav was toooooo good.

*retires-off is a verb, a neologism, - to make one retired.

you can add up the victories and say "Cipo won more".

Well, in his prime, Mcewen could beat Cipo. Zabel could beat Cipo, and did so consistently. I would have Zabel over Cipo.

In Cav's prime from 2010 to 2013, no one could beat Cav mano-a-mano.

And I reckon his terminal velocity is still the quickest, so he can get ascendancy over Greipel and Kittel.

heck, I would have Freire above Cipo.


But I would have no one above Frodo (aka Cav)

Ok, you're hopeless and clueless. Cav is one of the sprinting greats alright, just not the greatest

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

Cippo won much more than Cav, also Petacchi won more, so I don't know what are you talking about! Also there were some pretty fast guys in the past, who didn't had(need) trains to lead them, but still won more than Cav. to name a few: Rik Van Steenbergen, Andre Darrigade, Miguel Poblet, Rik Van Looy, Freddy Maertens... Go check those guys, than return and tell me who the GOAT really is!

$hit, you may as well pick Zabel or Freire then <eyesroll>

tell me who the GOAT really is!

Cav.

Cav is GOAT.

imagine if Cav only raced in France, or only raced the lowlands, or only raced in Spain, or only raced in Italy, and he was given the same train every race.

But Cav only raced the cat 1 races or classics or 2 cat tours 2.1 cat races. He never picked up dozens of wins in the $hit small races, but he still picked up his twenty wins a year by taking 12 Grand Tour stages or more. There are lots of quick guys, Steels, Quaranta, Chicchi, Blijlevens, Moncassin, Abdujaparov but there will only be one GOAT, it aint Petacchi or Cipollini, puhleese, they were fantastic sprinters and winners and showman, but they are not Cav. And I am not a Frodo fan, I am just saying it like it is. I was a fan of Cooke and Mcewen, but they have nothing on Cav.

and why the mods edited my post on here I do not know, it was not overt, it was integral to the damn post, and my efforts at offering insight were lost. Look at the contribution of mine to this thread... for chrissakes moderators ... a little leeway

Cippo vs Cav
191 career wins > 139 career wins
57 GT stage wins(42 Giro,12 Tour,3 Vuelta) > 44 GT stages(15G,26T,3V)
42 Giro stages(all time record) > 26 Tour stages (3rd all time)
3x Points Jersey = 3x Points Jersey
WC Road Race = WC Road Race
1x Milan-San Remo (2nd twice) > 1xMilan-San Remo
3x Gent-Wevelgem > 2xKuurne-Brussels-Kuurne
2x Scheldeprijs < 3xScheldeprijs
1x E3 Harelbeke > 1xClasica de Almeria
1x National Championship = 1xNat.Championship
34 stages of Major races (PN,TA,Romandie,Catalunya) > 12 World Tour stages

To resume: Cippo win more, and Cippo win more quality races
To conclude: Cippolini was better sprinter/rider than Mark Cavendish
To add: And I don't even consider Mario Cipollini the best sprinter of all time. In my humble opinion that honor should go either to Rik Van Steenbergen or Freddy Maertens

but the tour is important

 

[bassano]

Re: Re:

but the tour is important

We all know that it is only race you actually know but quality of tour stage victory is so far behind lot of other one day races victories that is not even worth to mention
And plus Cipolini had no chance to ride tour so many times as Cavendish because his team was not always invited to ride tour, since pro tour did not existed in that times, french organizators sometime invited lot of less quality team from France

 

[Billie]

Cav isn't even better than Petacchi.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Cipo's major problem was that as soon as the land started to rise, he abandoned which is why not a lot of tdf wins

 

[blackcat]

Re:

blackcat: it seems really useless to answer your posts the same you will never listen and you have your right
so many nonsense you are able to write, and still you can not answer how is possible that when he was so unbeatable in 3 years, he won so few compare to someone else

how?

Mcewen wins two at Giro, then he withdraws after 10 stages, Cipo wins 10 per Giro, finishes the Giro, may or may not ride The Tour, and if he rides the Tour, he withdraws after 6 stages before the Pyrennees or Alps depending on which mtns come first that year.

Mcewen then finishes the Tour, wins green, wins two stages.

Cav, in comparison to Cipo, rides about 12 on average at Giro, wins 4 Giro stages, then goes to France, wins another 4 stages in France and rides to the Champs Elysees, wins on the Champs Elysees, wins green.

So Cav racks up about ~3 to 5 stages and the rides mtns in each of the major two Grand Tours each of those Years. Bob Stapleton compels him to ride California because it is good for the sponsors to ride California... OK, at Giro, most years he would only do the first mtn pass.

To just reduce this comparison to Grand Tour stage wins is soooo juvenile. Cavendish is head and shoulders above anyone else. He cant climb, and Farrar was pi$$ed off with him around the 2010 Giro when he was dropped from the autobus/gruppetto on a stage with HC passes, but he "miraculously" managed to get back on to the gruppetto. Farrar was really pissed, because not that stage, but the next stages, Cav would win more stages, when, he had managed to get a Nibali "tow" back by the High Road(irony) team car (cant remember which DS was driving the second team car on the road that stage whiched towed Cav back).... so Farrar is pi$$ed when he gets second places to Cav in the remaining stages when Cav should have been dq'ed for either the time-cut, or being towed back onto the gruppetto.

 

[blackcat]

if Ciolek or Bennati were a few years older and came thru with Thor Hushovd and Boonen, they would be absolute champions.

This is the true "tell" or insight, the "meta", on why Cav was GOAT, is GOAT.

Ciolek and Bennati become significant champions in the annals of procycling in the 2000s if Cavendish is not there.

That Ciolek and Bennati did not fulfill their potential is down to one thing, Mark Cavendish.