Master's Riders - Where's are the sanctions?

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Jun 18, 2009
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jmax22 said:
Point being that in the U.S., cycling currently leads the who's who list of dopers.... Alice Pennington, Cale Redpath...
Just for the sake of accuracy, neither Pennington nor Redpath are "convicted dopers". Both had their suspensions overturned, and rightfully so, IMO.

For those who aren't familiar with the situation, they were suspended for being no-shows for doping control, at a race in which the were both listed as "alternates" for testing, and not notified. There's been way too much bandwidth wasted on this and Jason Sager, so I won't repeat it, but needless to say the sh!tshow USADA was running was the main culprit.

Sager I think actually had to serve his suspension, which was under even more ridiculous circumstances.

So in short, I'm not too impressed with that list knowing the number of guys who've been boosting their entire long, lucrative careers.
 
fatandfast said:
There are almost no masters events that have any kind of testing. USA Cycling doesn't have any money..less than zero.
Bzzt. Wrong. USAC generates revenue at every event they sanction. some of it goes back to the region. A good chunk stays in USAC. There's the olympic committee funding too. Weisel chopped the bulk of the fund raising off though and moved it into USACDF. I actually agree that the USAC is relatively poor compared to Weisel/Armstrong USACDF playground. But, they are not broke.

fatandfast said:
There are almost no pro races and racers in the US.
There are races and racers. Tour of the Gila, Superweek, Tour of Utah, the list is long and the events can be packaged for the media just like euro events. Except, that would compete with Pat's product. American racing is a competitor to UCI's format.

fatandfast said:
dope control for your club crit will kill it for sure.
I would wish riders who make a big deal out of PED testing a fond farewell. The sport will be better off without them.

I see your situation as USAC giving you no cover to actually enforce the rules. Which is unfortunate, but what exactly I'd expect from USAC. Benign neglect. Maybe the other cycling federations in the U.S. would be happier places to officiate?
 
Aug 4, 2009
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Masters taking banned medications are required to obtain a TUE if tested .
then they have to show the need for the meds such as some blood presure meds etc.
However due mainly to cost they are only tested at National level events and then only if they break a record.

Most Vets who are over 60 need some meds of sorts . At club level there is no testing .

You cant ban a cyclist who is taking a medication for a dissability it would be in breach of human rights.
Due to the expence of TUE application masters are subject to retrospective TUE.
Most masters racing is handicapped so why take a performance enhancing drug so that you can move up a grade or so.

Hundreds of Veietnam Veterans are on testosterone replacement due to effects of agent orange that is the ones that are not suffering with cancer .
 
Mar 18, 2009
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jmax22 said:
USAC is pretty indifferent to doping and has a totally hands-off approach. Show me one thing they do/say that indicates they aggressively pursue dopers, or even educate riders for that matter. Zirbel has nothing to do with USAC. USADA tested, adjudicated and handed down the sentence. USAC just sat idly by and watched as with all doping cases.
I don't think you understand: that is how the system is now set up. That is, responsibility for anti-doping efforts has been moved from the NGBs to USADA, largely due to avoid the conflict-of-interest issues alluded to in this thread.

As for USADA, I can tell you that if you are in the pool for OOC testing, you will receive a fair bit of education...
 
Sep 14, 2010
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There is no possibility for a retroactive TUE (unless you are LA). Absolutely no way.

As I understand it, the stuff sold to the people on Papp's list would never be covered by a TUE under any circumstance.
 
Oct 7, 2010
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fatandfast said:
welcome to Mr.Roger's neighborhood. Turbo is so fast and fit that if you check results you will see that he get's it done in the 35+ and the 45+ on the same day. recent results show that he was racing Steve Klasna,Jamie Palenetti,Richard Meeker all fast old dudes. Given your numbers 400 dollars in 1 day divided by the number of hours per week they train,minus travel,expenses and equipment,factor in flats,crashes and plain bad luck,average in the years that they made 4000 a year and slept on couches,in vans,tents and motels that it was safer to sleep in your car= average take 200 bucks per week. I left out complaints by family,friends,coworkers..anybody who has had to listen to somebody yell about how selfish racing is knows those complaints are logged into the "priceless" section of your brain. OB CA average cost of 1br 1500 per month. NYC..3300 a month..that's no elec or cable. I love even the idea of a guy talking to his landlord or mortgage company.."the reason I am late with the cash is that I got boxed out in the final corner..believe man I will have your money on Sunday right after I light those clowns up!!"
Your right it is a funny concept to ask your landlord for a bit of help. I agree the pricing of housing in those locales are expensive. In my own case, with no payouts I could live on that much, pay the mortgage and all. I am probably a rare case, I also dont live in CA anymore, but travel there a lot.

It also is a weird sociological concept of pursuing sport, for masters racers when the supposed norm is raising a family, working, and watching football on TV. That isnt my life, and for many they do have a selfish aspect. Perhaps what I do is selfish, but it is one of the few things that makes me happy.

Thurlow is a good example, so is DeMarchi, Schroeder, Meeker, et al. I look up to them myself, and will do the same thing next year.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Bzzt. Wrong. USAC generates revenue at every event they sanction. some of it goes back to the region. A good chunk stays in USAC. There's the olympic committee funding too. Weisel chopped the bulk of the fund raising off though and moved it into USACDF. I actually agree that the USAC is relatively poor compared to Weisel/Armstrong USACDF playground. But, they are not broke.


There are races and racers. Tour of the Gila, Superweek, Tour of Utah, the list is long and the events can be packaged for the media just like euro events. Except, that would compete with Pat's product. American racing is a competitor to UCI's format.


I would wish riders who make a big deal out of PED testing a fond farewell. The sport will be better off without them.

I see your situation as USAC giving you no cover to actually enforce the rules. Which is unfortunate, but what exactly I'd expect from USAC. Benign neglect. Maybe the other cycling federations in the U.S. would be happier places to officiate?
Dude smoke it without the seeds!!!Anybody ever watched cycling instead of baseball,football.....swimming..are you kidding me? cycling has no market in the US. NBC/universal has worked hard to make Giro and other huge regional races a money maker. Gila???? really..Gila..a guy is calling in from work to watch Gila..Nobody cares about Gila..Americans..Euroes nobody it's not a big race..yes it's big on our calendar but no real pro is flying in for Gila. The Tour Of California is fighting for TV time...and almost nobody is watching..Boonen saying my win at Gila really set up my season. US bike racing is backwater..simply..just the spills of real races...and masters..sure that is a huge TV market..lots of sponsors want to dump coin into old guys doing loops for 400 bucks..winner doesn't take all..OMG the self importance
 
Jul 6, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Bzzt. Wrong. USAC generates revenue at every event they sanction. some of it goes back to the region. A good chunk stays in USAC. There's the olympic committee funding too. Weisel chopped the bulk of the fund raising off though and moved it into USACDF. I actually agree that the USAC is relatively poor compared to Weisel/Armstrong USACDF playground. But, they are not broke.


There are races and racers. Tour of the Gila, Superweek, Tour of Utah, the list is long and the events can be packaged for the media just like euro events. Except, that would compete with Pat's product. American racing is a competitor to UCI's format.


I would wish riders who make a big deal out of PED testing a fond farewell. The sport will be better off without them.

I see your situation as USAC giving you no cover to actually enforce the rules. Which is unfortunate, but what exactly I'd expect from USAC. Benign neglect. Maybe the other cycling federations in the U.S. would be happier places to officiate?
I see that 'dirty works' is not only your moniker, but perhaps your philosophy of life as well. Get out of sport.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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DirtyWorks - I may have misunderstood your post (the part I bolded). I have to plead ESL on this one... Do you mean those p*ssing about getting tested, or those who p*ss about testing in general? Clarify?
 
Apr 10, 2009
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TERMINATOR said:
Yeah, it's called the UCI and they did that with Jan Ullrich, who to date has never served so much as a single day suspension despite his DNA matching a bag in Operacion Puerto.
TERMINATOR said:
Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. Any rider who tests positive will be made public on the USADA website, whether or not they retire. USAC has nothing to do with adjudicating doping cases.
So which is it? UCI does, but USAC doesn't? :confused: My friend is pretty knowledgeable about these things so I think I will trust his opinion.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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slowoldman said:
So which is it? UCI does, but USAC doesn't? :confused: My friend is pretty knowledgeable about these things so I think I will trust his opinion.
I can admit to feds (not American, mind you) keeping results hidden. And not just at club races - big games. They get the results from testing, and it's up to them to sanction riders. Or not. Or to hold the results to use as a bit of a club to keep riders quiet. Scary but true...

Can anyone say Omerta? It runs a little deeper than just the peoloton...
 
Apr 10, 2009
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I race every weekend against all the guys mentioned in this thread. There have been rumblings about "pharmaceutical help" for a while now. Who does it? Who doesn't? I don't know. All I know is that I don't. If I had to pee in a cup every weekend to prove it I would be fine with that. I wish they did test, so much so that I would have no problem with a more expensive license application to help pay for said testing. You dope, you cheat, period. It is a hobby for a bunch of old fat guys. If you need to dope to win not only are you dishonest, you're pathetic.
 
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slowoldman said:
I race every weekend against all the guys mentioned in this thread. There have been rumblings about "pharmaceutical help" for a while now. Who does it? Who doesn't? I don't know. All I know is that I don't. If I had to pee in a cup every weekend to prove it I would be fine with that. I wish they did test, so much so that I would have no problem with a more expensive license application to help pay for said testing. You dope, you cheat, period. It is a hobby for a bunch of old fat guys. If you need to dope to win not only are you dishonest, you're pathetic.
+ 1

A bunch of has-beens and never-have-been's on dope to win a local Ontario crit. It can't get worse than that.
 
131313 said:
Just for the sake of accuracy, neither Pennington nor Redpath are "convicted dopers". Both had their suspensions overturned, and rightfully so, IMO.

For those who aren't familiar with the situation, they were suspended for being no-shows for doping control, at a race in which the were both listed as "alternates" for testing, and not notified. There's been way too much bandwidth wasted on this and Jason Sager, so I won't repeat it, but needless to say the sh!tshow USADA was running was the main culprit.

Sager I think actually had to serve his suspension, which was under even more ridiculous circumstances.

So in short, I'm not too impressed with that list knowing the number of guys who've been boosting their entire long, lucrative careers.
And Steven Cisar was a BMX racer who tested + for pot, which was probably a contact + from his dad.:cool:
 
Aug 4, 2009
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washedup said:
There is no possibility for a retroactive TUE (unless you are LA). Absolutely no way.

As I understand it, the stuff sold to the people on Papp's list would never be covered by a TUE under any circumstance.
Actualy it is very important that WADA and local agencies understand the Law outside of the anti doping laws.

We sign a agreement for 12 months to agree to go to CASS with any issues but next year when they stop you from joining your club they are breaching the Human rights act in most countries.

It is discrimination to say you cant join because you need a medication for a dissability that is banned.

One day this law which is much stronger than the anti doping laws will give some sporting organisation a big dose of piles,

In Oz we would have a high court judicial reveiw which would certainly send the anti doping act back to the Government to re write it.

all it needs is someone to win a case against the anti doping under equal oppertunity act.

People who have requested a TUE have admitted to use of a banned drug in making the request. But will the CA or UCI stop these peopls from joining the club.

They wont so knowingly giving a rider a licence they have no case if he is tested.
Its a big fraud all around from the top to club level they want your membership fees.
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
DirtyWorks - I may have misunderstood your post (the part I bolded). I have to plead ESL on this one... Do you mean those p*ssing about getting tested, or those who p*ss about testing in general? Clarify?
I was very time-constrained when I replied. Rushing leads to poorly constructed thoughts.

Using PED's is wrong. Even more so in the quest to win a Masters event in Ontario.

A reason why there are no efforts to sanction California riders is an enormous percentage of USAC's membership is in California. No other State comes vaguely near California in numbers of USAC members. Weisel drove away Oregon and Colorado racers a long time ago. Sanctions in Cal would mean membership numbers would take a huge dive. As it is Weisel and Co have no interest in promoting the sport. Steeply declining membership from doped Masters departing would be a multi-faceted political tipping point. Check USAC's Annual Report out sometime. It's all in there.
 
fatandfast said:
Dude smoke it without the seeds!!!Anybody ever watched cycling instead of baseball,football.....swimming..are you kidding me? cycling has no market in the US. NBC/universal has worked hard to make Giro and other huge regional races a money maker. Gila???? really..Gila..a guy is calling in from work to watch Gila..Nobody cares about Gila..Americans..Euroes nobody it's not a big race..yes it's big on our calendar but no real pro is flying in for Gila. The Tour Of California is fighting for TV time...and almost nobody is watching..Boonen saying my win at Gila really set up my season. US bike racing is backwater..simply..just the spills of real races...and masters..sure that is a huge TV market..lots of sponsors want to dump coin into old guys doing loops for 400 bucks..winner doesn't take all..OMG the self importance
It's not about self-importance. People in huge numbers will pay to watch all kinds of crazy sports activities. NBC Universal also broadcast the Nature Valley Grand Prix too.

In sports-entertainment terms, bike racers (most athletes really) are just actors in a drama. The drama comes from structured conflict. A European peloton is not required to produce a dramatic event. The extreme example is Kevin Costner on a bike sold some movie tickets... Another bicycle-based movie set in Indiana did even better.

Check your bias out. The UCI is not required to produce popular bicycle sports entertainment.

I've hijacked the thread, so I'll stop now.
 
Oct 7, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
I was very time-constrained when I replied. Rushing leads to poorly constructed thoughts.

Using PED's is wrong. Even more so in the quest to win a Masters event in Ontario.

A reason why there are no efforts to sanction California riders is an enormous percentage of USAC's membership is in California. No other State comes vaguely near California in numbers of USAC members. Weisel drove away Oregon and Colorado racers a long time ago. Sanctions in Cal would mean membership numbers would take a huge dive. As it is Weisel and Co have no interest in promoting the sport. Steeply declining membership from doped Masters departing would be a multi-faceted political tipping point. Check USAC's Annual Report out sometime. It's all in there.
Which would drive them all to CBR? I dont know if that is good or bad for them. But I did see a quote in regards to Papp and him competing at any of their events, it was very strongly worded to say the least.
 
Sep 14, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
It's not about self-importance. People in huge numbers will pay to watch all kinds of crazy sports activities. NBC Universal also broadcast the Nature Valley Grand Prix too.

In sports-entertainment terms, bike racers (most athletes really) are just actors in a drama. The drama comes from structured conflict. A European peloton is not required to produce a dramatic event. The extreme example is Kevin Costner on a bike sold some movie tickets... Another bicycle-based movie set in Indiana did even better.

Check your bias out. The UCI is not required to produce popular bicycle sports entertainment.

I've hijacked the thread, so I'll stop now.


I don't know the scene, but I would imagine numbers would not be impacted. Heck, if I were a potential masters racer there, I would be more motivated than ever to race since things will be cleaner.


If the USAC sweeps this one under the rug, i will lose every bit of respect for American 'justice'.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
It's not about self-importance. People in huge numbers will pay to watch all kinds of crazy sports activities. NBC Universal also broadcast the Nature Valley Grand Prix too.

In sports-entertainment terms, bike racers (most athletes really) are just actors in a drama. The drama comes from structured conflict. A European peloton is not required to produce a dramatic event. The extreme example is Kevin Costner on a bike sold some movie tickets... Another bicycle-based movie set in Indiana did even better.

Check your bias out. The UCI is not required to produce popular bicycle sports entertainment.

I've hijacked the thread, so I'll stop now.
CUTTERS! Not only a classic in America. A strange appeal in Europe as well...
 
Cbr ftw!

PotentialPro said:
Which would drive them all to CBR? I dont know if that is good or bad for them. But I did see a quote in regards to Papp and him competing at any of their events, it was very strongly worded to say the least.
I think the guy that runs CBR would not allow USAC dopers to be licensed at his events. He sells a conviction that Masters racing is a good hobby and clearly disapproves doping. Which is right. A Masters doper deserves to be shunned by all competitive cycling organizations.

http://californiabicycleracing.blogspot.com/2010/10/officer-will-not-lie-cheat-or-steal-nor.html

He's a loose canon that's fun to read. IMHO, he's really trying to do much more for competitive cycling than USAC.
 
Aug 3, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
I think the guy that runs CBR would not allow USAC dopers to be licensed at his events. He sells a conviction that Masters racing is a good hobby and clearly disapproves doping. Which is right. A Masters doper deserves to be shunned by all competitive cycling organizations.

http://californiabicycleracing.blogspot.com/2010/10/officer-will-not-lie-cheat-or-steal-nor.html

He's a loose canon that's fun to read. IMHO, he's really trying to do much more for competitive cycling than USAC.
As evidenced by all his junior categories?
 
Last One

MacRoadie said:
As evidenced by all his junior categories?
yes and no. It's a valid criticism that the guy doesn't draw juniors. That's the "yes."

The "no." I view it as a chicken-egg problem where CBR is the out-resourced competitor to a federation that's not focused on growing membership. If CBR can make the numbers work, most SoCal racing will migrate to his federation based on his simple focus on making happy customers and providing strong cover for his volunteers/officials. The Juniors will then follow most events to CBR sanctioning and probably grow.

Important Note: A little change in participation between the federations work out to big changes because of the small number of Juniors.

This federation stuff is quite wonky and not on topic, so if you want to discuss it, then start a new thread about alternatives to USAC.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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fatandfast said:
There are almost no masters events that have any kind of testing. USA Cycling doesn't have any money..less than zero. If done correctly they can get rid of the few masters dope fiends that are out there.

Actually USADA did see fit to show up a local crit in North Carolina earlier this season to test the masters field. Why they chose that race (it was not a big race or a championship) and that group of racers I have no idea. I don't know the exact numbers but heard they tested nine riders that day, all from the masters race.
 

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