McQuaid's gotta go

[euphrades]

Just one question. You say you think he doped before cancer. Does this mean you think he won those 7 Tours clean?

I don't think he tooked banned substances.......I think he took stuff that was performance enhancing that wasn't on the list yet or it was probably more blood doping.

One thing that sticks out in my head is a fellow racing friend of mine that had testicular cancer a couple years ago. His was not as progressed as Armstrongs and his went into remission as well. My friend said that they stuck him so many times and filled him with so many drugs during chemo that he won't take a single tylenol for a headache. He would rather suffer.

 

[Zoncolan]

I don't think he tooked banned substances.......I think he took stuff that was performance enhancing that wasn't on the list yet or it was probably more blood doping.

One thing that sticks out in my head is a fellow racing friend of mine that had testicular cancer a couple years ago. His was not as progressed as Armstrongs and his went into remission as well. My friend said that they stuck him so many times and filled him with so many drugs during chemo that he won't take a single tylenol for a headache. He would rather suffer.

Blood doping. Yeah, that's the thing. As you say, he would rather suffer. One thing I always admired about LA is that he's able to suffer. Postal/Disco/Astana have been on that stuff for a long time.
Gotta go back to Tour de Romandie final climb of the day coming! Here's a link:http://www.sportitalia.com/SIlivefeed.aspx

 

[euphrades]

Blood doping. Yeah, that's the thing. As you say, he would rather suffer. One thing I always admired about LA is that he's able to suffer. Postal/Disco/Astana have been on that stuff for a long time.
Gotta go back to Tour de Romandie final climb of the day coming! Here's a link:http://www.sportitalia.com/SIlivefeed.aspx

Just to clarrify when I said suffer I was referring to my Canadian friend who had cancer not Lance.

BTW, I think it was Lemond that said it was amazing how fast the Tour was becoming even during the first week. Prior to 1991 and 1992 the flat stages were pretty quiet with the big guns sitting quietly gaining form. And it was customary for the Giro to be a warm up for the Tour and that in 1991 it was apparent to Lemond that even the Giro was becoming too fast from the beginning to be a warm up anymore. .......timing is way to curious.

 

[Power13]

Wasn't 6 positives as they did not test the B samples.......and were tested for independent research reasons......read the testing procedures that were done and the report.

Ummm....no. The "B" samples were the ones tested, not the "A' samples.

So while it can never be "proof" in a court of law, it is more than enough proof for anyone of an open mind to look at the evidence and say "Yer.....he doped in 99 at least."

You may also wanna check out the recent interview with the researcher who pretty much said the only way his samples could have come up dirty woudl have been if he actually used EPO.

 

[Zoncolan]

Just to clarrify when I said suffer I was referring to my Canadian friend who had cancer not Lance.

BTW, I think it was Lemond that said it was amazing how fast the Tour was becoming even during the first week. Prior to 1991 and 1992 the flat stages were pretty quiet with the big guns sitting quietly gaining form. And it was customary for the Giro to be a warm up for the Tour and that in 1991 it was apparent to Lemond that even the Giro was becoming too fast from the beginning to be a warm up anymore. .......timing is way to curious.

I got you, I just said that's why I think Lance would opt for blood doping.

The timing is the emergence of EPO.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I got you, I just said that's why I think Lance would opt for blood doping.

The timing is the emergence of EPO.

Posted elsewhere, just today, by another member of this forum.




Blue line graph signifies the power output of the winners on ascents below.
Yellow block graph shows the number of riders hitting +410 watt average on the final climb of the hardest stage.

As for the Armstrong payment. Absolutely a conflict of interest. Could you imagine if Stefan Schmacher made a similar offer?

I suspect this should be against the rules, which again comes back to McQuaid and predecessor.
How many times have we now experienced the maliability of the UCI, when it comes to accommodating Lance's whims?

Change is like gravity, it filters down. Much harder to travel upstream, as it's constantly going against the flow.
The only way to really get to grips with the sport's doping problems is to cut the head off the monster.

 

[Zoncolan]

Posted elsewhere, just today, by another member of this forum.




Blue line graph signifies the power output of the winners on ascents below.
Yellow block graph shows the number of riders hitting +410 watt average on the final climb of the hardest stage.

As for the Armstrong payment. Absolutely a conflict of interest. Could you imagine if Stefan Schmacher made a similar offer?

I suspect this should be against the rules, which again comes back to McQuaid and predecessor.
How many times have we now experienced the maliability of the UCI, when it comes to accommodating Lance's whims?

Change is like gravity, it filters down. Much harder to travel upstream, as it's constantly going against the flow.
The only way to really get to grips with the sport's doping problems is to cut the head off the monster.

Agreed.
Note on the graph the spike in '96. Mr. 60% and Virenque

 

[BigBoat]

As long as the old UCI management continues in this manner, the racing might as well be fixed. Its meaningless really!

Everyone needs a sealed SRM controlled by the police. If your watts compared to your V02 max is impossible your done! Somebody with an 82 VO2 max wouldnt even hold 370 watts for an hour. Let alone 500. If they weighed 91 kilos at 4% bodyfat then they could.

They need to compare VO2 capacity with sustainable watts.

Now the "winner" will never be totally clean but you could stop 95% of this with wattage testing and comparisons. It could come down to the point where you can race the TOur without drugs if this was done. Its forced doping among the whole field just to keep up, and thats what is unfair. If you want to race hard without doping that should always be an option, even at the top.

Blood values are easily shiftable with plasma expanders like hespan or pentaspan for example. Total blood volume cant be manipulated as easily, unless somebody has enough time to "train off" blood or infuse saline.

 

[Jarvis]

Action on McQuaid? Well Lionel Birnie has started...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/The_Wednesday_Comment_April_29_article_281627.html

The graph above. Interesting, but only really for the trends it shows. As someone pointed out there is a spike in '96. In '97 the 50% "health limit" was introduced so you would expect a reduction. The same happens in '99 probably because of the Festina affair. It is well documented that EPO dropped for a year or two after that before slowly returning as could be indicated by the increasing power output of the stage winner until 2002 when it fell and the same pattern repeats until 2005. 2001 was the year of the big Giro raids and 2004 was the Cofidis scandal. It would be interesting to see if a similar pattern replicated in 2007 the year after Puerto, or whether it took until the Astana affair for things to change.

 

[davidg]

Everyone needs a sealed SRM controlled by the police.
... but you could stop 95% of this with wattage testing and comparisons.

You keep banging on about wattage testing, but have you thought about how this might be done.

So the tester turns up at your door after 6 hours on the bike and you confirm his accreditation. " could you pls do a maximal wattage test please Mr A?"

If someone asked me to do that, how hard do you think I would try.

I agree that there is a problem and I don't for one moment condone it, but I think we need to keep it in perspective. The 24x7 testing is already intrusive enough.

Personally I would prefer to have a similar level of testing in other walks of life, like the pilot who is flying my 747 for 13 hours. It would be nice to know that he has had enough sleep and isn't on something (yeh right).

 

[davidg]

Sorry, I perpetuated the off-topic reply. Yes McQ should go.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

McQuaid and Verbruggen need to go. For those of you that forgot, Hein had a fairly flippant attitude towards doping, and was resigned to it's existence. In the 1999 Tour the ASO fought to keep Virenque out of the Tour (yes, the ASO), it was Hein that pushed to insure he, and several other dopers, were allowed.

Lance isn't the only problem here, but that is a serious conflict of interest. As other noted, imagine of Schumacher, Ricco, Landis or Hamilton had made such a donation...

Wattage testing wouldn't be done like that, it would be longitudinal. More or less, there's no possible way you can fake effort after effort after effort. I'm sure BigBoat will explain more.

That graph is very, very telling. The more I study it, the more revealing it is. It's basically saying that from 1987-1991 you had maybe a handful of riders hitting 380 watts. It's been estimated that Merckx hit about 385 during his hour record (discounting altitude of Mexico City), so these numbers seem about right, that Lemond, Fignon, Delgado and Roche were all close to Eddy using a little more modern training and technology. Sure.

It looks like no numbers from 1992. In 1993 there's a jump, and at least five riders were hitting 400 watts. Indurain & Rominger dominated that Tour. After that we had Jaskula, Mejia, Riis, Chiapucci (highly suspect of doping to hematocrit levels over 60), and...Bruyneel. Hmmm.

Also keep in mind this is saying the "final climb on the hardest mountain stage".

The rest of the numbers speak for themselves. Most telling is that in 1999, the year we know Lance was on EPO for certain, his wattage output was at least 410 watts. Every winning year after that his gains were higher, even nearly topping 1996 when Festina, Riis and everyone else were doped up beyond belief.

Had we transported Merckx, Lemond, Fignon, Delgado and Roche to 2004 or 2005, they probably would not have finished the Tour, and struggled to keep up with the autobus. An amazing thought.

 

[BroDeal]

Had we transported Merckx, Lemond, Fignon, Delgado and Roche to 2004 or 2005, they probably would not have finished the Tour, and struggled to keep up with the autobus. An amazing thought.

They would have finished. But it is interesting that Lemond, one of the most genetically gifted cyclist of all time, would not have come close to winning the TdF. Looking at the years where there were 8 - 11 riders putting out 410+ watts, if we assume a bell shaped curve then there will be a large number in the 390 - 410 range. Perhaps as many as twenty-five or thirty riders would be putting out more power than Lemond ever could. Factor in the extra recovery that you get with drugs, and Lemond would have had a hard time coming in the top twenty or thirty--even if we allow for some riders doing domestique duty and not killing it every kilometer of every stage. I think that says a lot.

GT cycling has been a fraud for a long time. Verbruggen sat by while it went pear shaped.

Even worse, I think the power is underestimated because they assumed a fixed rider weight. In the EPO era we saw riders a little heavier than usual effectively getting rid of the very concept of a climbing specialist, Pantani excepted for some reason.

 

[franciep10]

They would have finished. But it is interesting that Lemond, one of the most genetically gifted cyclist of all time, would not have come close to winning the TdF. Looking at the years where there were 8 - 11 riders putting out 410+ watts, if we assume a bell shaped curve then there will be a large number in the 390 - 410 range. Perhaps as many as twenty-five or thirty riders would be putting out more power than Lemond ever could. Factor in the extra recovery that you get with drugs, and Lemond would have had a hard time coming in the top twenty or thirty--even if we allow for some riders doing domestique duty and not killing it every kilometer of every stage. I think that says a lot.

GT cycling has been a fraud for a long time. Verbruggen sat by while it went pear shaped.

Even worse, I think the power is underestimated because they assumed a fixed rider weight. In the EPO era we saw riders a little heavier than usual effectively getting rid of the very concept of a climbing specialist, Pantani excepted for some reason.

Hey bro deal what happened to the first bro deal that guy was pretty funny

 

[marinoni]

I hope the german Sylvia Shenk runs again. When she ran last time she was the one who revealed that the UCI had accepted a $500K under the table payment from Armstrong. Put the germans in control and we would see a whole new approach to the doping situation and maybe an interesting audit of the UCI's books.

Sounds like an idea, but likely never happen. Along the same vein(I have a rich fantasy life) how about Greg Lemond? I would pay a LOT of money to be in the same room as Pharmstrong when he gets that particular piece of news!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, the UCI is suing Lemond, for calling them "corrupt" (which they are), and they've tried to sue him in the past as well, so that's not going to happen. He would definitely turn things in the right direction, that's for sure.

I'd definitely vote for Syvia Shenk. Or as someone else said, anyone German about now, as they seem to be the most serious and dedicated to stopping doping.

GT cycling has been a fraud for a long time. Verbruggen sat by while it went pear shaped.

You are completely correct my friend.

 

[podilato]

The Verbruggen/Mcquaid era has to end. Verbruggen, if I'm not mistaken, was on one of the committees that gave the Winter Olympics to Salt Lake City which was later exposed for showering the IOC with bribes.

Also, noone has mentioned all the secret payments made by the Japanese Cycling Federation which paid for a lot of business class travel for Verbruggen. The payments were, of course, for the 'promotion' of cycling.

When the Italian cyclist Zanetti died in 2002 Verbruggen basically said that if anyone doesn't like it then they should leave cycling.

They just have to go.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

gave the Winter Olympics to Salt Lake City which was later exposed for showering the IOC with bribes.

Don't forget the rampant doping at those Olympics as well, and all the scandals that went with it.

 

[BigBoat]

Action on McQuaid? Well Lionel Birnie has started...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/The_Wednesday_Comment_April_29_article_281627.html

The graph above. Interesting, but only really for the trends it shows. As someone pointed out there is a spike in '96. In '97 the 50% "health limit" was introduced so you would expect a reduction. The same happens in '99 probably because of the Festina affair. It is well documented that EPO dropped for a year or two after that before slowly returning as could be indicated by the increasing power output of the stage winner until 2002 when it fell and the same pattern repeats until 2005. 2001 was the year of the big Giro raids and 2004 was the Cofidis scandal. It would be interesting to see if a similar pattern replicated in 2007 the year after Puerto, or whether it took until the Astana affair for things to change.

They were completly JACKED the whole way though and still are....

hematocrit limit? Ha! 21 guage IV needle in the leg or arm, "draw off" some blood into a couple of coke cans... Or into a big blood bag and pop in in the fridge; "saving it for later." Wha ha ha ha !

THe smaller teams had to obey the limit because they did not have lactate ringer, hespan, etc to hemodilute. THis gave Mercatone Uno, Postal, etc a MASSIVE power advantage by the way. Still does. By the way, the budget does not determine the doping, its knowledge, knowhow, connections, and lastly some money.

Many top pros simply dont know how to blood dope under the bio passport and they lost and are loosing. Now, Lance had around 6.7 watts per kilo for an hour in his best days... Ricco last year had 6.0 or so. Ric Stern figured it out.

Ricco, Kohl, Schumacher, Scleck, Sastre wouldnt stand a chance against Basso and Lance... And they wont.

 

[BikeCentric]

Pantani excepted for some reason.

I would highly recommend that you read "The Death of Marco Pantani" and then you will know why - I'm just finishing the book now. Pantani was doped to the gills for his entire career on EPO and HGH, and then good old blood transfusions for the latter part of it. Of course he was also perhaps the most talented pure climber who ever lived so doping on top of that was quite helpful.

The most interesting thing about this book however is the behind-the-scenes info you get about Italian doping. First of all, the Italian Government (actually CONI specifically if you can believe that irony) funded the lab of Conconi and Ferrari for the purpose of doping their riders and other athletes. The Government was running a program similar to the East German program of the 50's and 60's. They systematically doped their athletes at the 2000 Olympics and actually had a large internal power struggle whereby their own Governmental anti-doping program was actually terminated in the lead-up to the 2000 Olympics in order to ensure that their athletes would compete juiced with no internal interference.

However, the judicial system was not corrupted (in regards to doping anyway) and brought numerous cases against Pantani. There are many blood test results of his in official court records (in cases that he was convicted of doping) that show obvious examples of blood doping. All of this was prior to actual tests for EPO and HGH and what not, but Pantani was convicted anyway on circumstantial evidence simply because his blood values were overwhelmingly indicative of blood doping.

Anyway, I highly recommend the book, it's fascinating. Oh yeah, it also makes clear that Verbruggen and the UCI are corrupt. Verbruggen called out publicly by name 2 Italian anti-doping doctors and personally influenced the aforementioned shut-down of the Italian Government's anti-doping efforts.

 

[podilato]

Corruption in a lot of sports is endemic. They are very undemocratic institutions which is why they attract a lot of dubious characters.

If you are a power hungry megalomanic you don't want things like the public or elections getting in the way. Organizations like the IOC and FIFA are now as powerful as many governments. The location of the World Cup and its gravy train is decided by only about 12 people. There are no public elections or door knocking for votes. You only need to keep a few cronies happy and the world is your oyster.

Samaranch knew this years ago. When he was an up and coming fascist in Franco's regime he saw an opportunity in sport. He started out in roller hockey.

It is time that sports' shareholders i.e. us, demand our sports be run fairly and ethically.