Merckx picks Gilbert over Van den Broeck for good Tour finish

[c&cfan]

ok..lets get it started lol

are you guys kidding with me???

gilbert is a classics specialist, with lots of talent and power.
every cyclist in that position has the goal to win or roubaix or LBL (in gilbert's case) and the road race as a bonus and they will live for the monuments. they only see other classics as some sort of training. monuments are the real deal. it's like dauphiné and the tour. and so far, let's say that gilbert is a "brajkovic with a mountain jersey in the tour", and cancellara is the real tour contender with 2 gc wins etc.

and this is only talking about classics.

 

[rzombie1988]

I wouldn't pick Gilbert over Jurgen. Jurgen had a good 2009 Tour and an even better 2010 tour. With Contador being suspended this year, there's going to be another podium place available and he could potentially take one of them. I think Andy will win but Jurgen might be able to pull a 3rd place finish. He's going to have alot of competition though as I think Andy will pull Frank to a podium spot and there's Menchov/Samu and others. I really think that the 2nd/3rd place battle is going to be pretty special this year as there's a ton of contenders.

 

[Matthijs]

ok..lets get it started lol

are you guys kidding with me???

gilbert is a classics specialist, with lots of talent and power.
every cyclist in that position has the goal to win or roubaix or LBL (in gilbert's case) and the road race as a bonus and they will live for the monuments. they only see other classics as some sort of training. monuments are the real deal. it's like dauphiné and the tour. and so far, let's say that gilbert is a "brajkovic with a mountain jersey in the tour", and cancellara is the real tour contender with 2 gc wins etc.

and this is only talking about classics.

bla bla... in a moment you're declaring cycling is only about the Tour right? and the other GT's doesn't matter. And all those training rides are in there for 30, 50, 80 or 110 years just training right?
besides, you say Monuments are the only real deal, and within the monuments they only ride really for LBL and PR. RvV and MSR are training for PR I presume??

 

[c&cfan]

bla bla... in a moment you're declaring cycling is only about the Tour right? and the other GT's doesn't matter. And all those training rides are in there for 30, 50, 80 or 110 years just training right?
besides, you say Monuments are the only real deal, and within the monuments they only ride really for LBL and PR. RvV and MSR are training for PR I presume??

damn.. you are not fastminded.

i never said that about gts or MSR and RVV.

let's say..

gilbert lives for the monuments. other classics are for him what dauphine is for tour contenders and giro del trentino for giro contenders. and LBL is for him what tour is for any GT guy. capiche?

other classics besides monuments for riders libe bettini rebelin bonnen cancellara musseuw are just training. just like other stage races are training for GT contenders.

that said, gilbert isnt a looser only because of lombardia, and still..............................

 

[Matthijs]

damn.. you are not fastminded.

i never said that about gts or MSR and RVV.

let's say..

gilbert lives for the monuments. other classics are for him what dauphine is for tour contenders and giro del trentino for giro contenders. and LBL is for him what tour is for any GT guy. capiche?

other classics besides monuments for riders libe bettini rebelin bonnen cancellara musseuw are just training. just like other stage races are training for GT contenders.

that said, gilbert isnt a looser only because of lombardia, and still..............................

I understand. I just don't think you're right. Following this logic the Tour the France contenders wouldn't even participate in the classica san sebastian (no monument after this race) and every year a lot of classic-guys/climbers do even though it's no preparation for the worlds any more.
And San sebastian is below AGR, FW and PT in a lot of guys books. LBL and GdL may be the most important race of both hilly seasons, but that doesn't mean it's just training to compete AGR and so on. If it was only training, they wouldn't ride the finals, with all the risks on small roads, fast turning etc etc. but quit at 200 or 230k.
Also, the worldcup shouldn't be valued in any way: too much training-races. Clearly the cup was a respectable win only for real great champions...

 

[El Pistolero]

oops, I thought I forgot stuff. thnx. Any other active rider with at least 2M or a serious sery of classics?

this better?
Overal Classic riders still active:
1. Boonen (5M, GW)
2. Freire (3M, PT, GW)
3. Gilbert (2M, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M) (this whole discussion)
5. Cunego (3M, AGR)
6. Valverde (2M, FW)
7. Vino (2M)

I rank
M > normal classic
AGR/PT > FW/GW (I know GW can be disputed as classic, not that much influence on this ranking though)
E3 and Strade Bianche are good races, but other some league and no history of course

maybe fair to put in worlds RR too:
1. Freire (3W, 3MSR, PT, GW)
2. Boonen (W, 5M's, GW)
3. Gilbert (2GdL, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M's) (this whole discussion)
5. Cunego (3GdL, AGR)
6. Di Luca (LBL, GdL, AGR, FW)
7. Vino (2LBL, AGR)
8. Valverde (2LBL, FW)
9. Ballan(W, RvV)
10. Evans (W, FW)

and if Valverde is still in, di Luca maybe should be in too?
worlds > Monument, but not that much so Evans Worlds + Fleche < Vino's 2 LBL

You forgot Rebellin(he's back next season).

He has won 3 FW, LBL, AGR, Züri-Metzgete and the Clasica de San Sebastian. I'd put him above Cunego even because of his other podium places and more variety in his wins. And he's the only cyclist to have ever won all the 3 Ardennes classics in one season. I don't think it's fair to put the Worlds in as Freire is not the best.

The only reason why he won in '99 was because of VDB's crash. VDB rode with 2 broken wrists and still finished 7th. He even attacked at some point, but because he couldn't get out of his saddle(like he otherwise always did when he did one of his amazing attacks) the attack didn't succeed.

And his second Worlds win was another lucky one because of the fued between Bettini and Bartoli... And he also got a free MSR win because Zabel celebrated too soon.

 

[Matthijs]

maybe fair to put in worlds RR too:
1. Freire (3W, 3MSR, PT, GW)
Bettini (OL, GdL/LBL several, still active as a coach, 0 worlds because the first one was a lucky because of Samu's lead-out, Valverde should have won, the second was clearly for Kolobnev)
2. Boonen (W, 5M's, GW)
Rebellin (LBL, AGR, 3FW, Zurich, SSeb)
3. Gilbert (2GdL, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M's) (this whole discussion)
VDB (1W, LBL, 1RvV (he should have won 02 or 03), PR he's belgium/flandres so he should also have won this one)
5. Cunego (3GdL, AGR)
6. Di Luca (LBL, GdL, AGR, FW)
7. Vino (2LBL, AGR)
8. Valverde (2LBL, FW + 1 W)
9. Ballan(W, RvV)
10. Evans (W, FW) (and this years tour because he had won as he crashed, unfortunately the tour isnt a classic)
Gesink (Montreal and Vuelta 2 times, won with crashes)
Kolobnev (for his worlds and all his good podiums...)
Menshov no classics buts just crashes a lot...

better

 

[El Pistolero]

maybe fair to put in worlds RR too:
1. Freire (3W, 3MSR, PT, GW)
Bettini (OL, GdL/LBL several, still active as a coach, 0 worlds because the first one was a lucky because of Samu's lead-out, Valverde should have won, the second was clearly for Kolobnev)
2. Boonen (W, 5M's, GW)
Rebellin (LBL, AGR, 3FW, Zurich, SSeb)
3. Gilbert (2GdL, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M's) (this whole discussion)
VDB (1W, LBL, 1RvV (he should have won 02 or 03), PR he's belgium/flandres so he should also have won this one)
5. Cunego (3GdL, AGR)
6. Di Luca (LBL, GdL, AGR, FW)
7. Vino (2LBL, AGR)
8. Valverde (2LBL, FW + 1 W)
9. Ballan(W, RvV)
10. Evans (W, FW) (and this years tour because he had won as he crashed, unfortunately the tour isnt a classic)
Gesink (Montreal and Vuelta 2 times, won with crashes)
Kolobnev (for his worlds and all his good podiums...)
Menshov no classics buts just crashes a lot...

better

I'm just saying that you don't look blindly at someone's palmares, but have to look at in context to consider who's the best. Saying Freire's the best is a complete and utter joke.

I can see you haven't watched the '99 Worlds. VDB had some legendary form throughout the '99 season.


And Montreal is not a classic, while Clasica de San Sebastian is considered one.

None of Bettini's worlds wins was lucky. At least watch the races you talk about. If anything Valverde should thank Samu for what he did. He just wasn't faster than Zabel and Bettini.

 

[La Pandera]

You forgot Rebellin(he's back next season).

He has won 3 FW, LBL, AGR, Züri-Metzgete and the Clasica de San Sebastian. I'd put him above Cunego even because of his other podium places and more variety in his wins. And he's the only cyclist to have ever won all the 3 Ardennes classics in one season. I don't think it's fair to put the Worlds in as Freire is not the best.

The only reason why he won in '99 was because of VDB's crash. VDB rode with 2 broken wrists and still finished 7th. He even attacked at some point, but because he couldn't get out of his saddle(like he otherwise always did when he did one of his amazing attacks) the attack didn't succeed.

And his second Worlds win was another lucky one because of the fued between Bettini and Bartoli... And he also got a free MSR win because Zabel celebrated too soon.

A rider has to have the wherewithal to be in a position to take advantage of the mistakes of his opponents. To minimize their victories because of the misfortune/mistakes of his competitors is simply an example your veiled bias.

 

[El Pistolero]

A rider has to have the wherewithal to be in a position to take advantage of the mistakes of his opponents. To minimize their victories because of the misfortune/mistakes of his competitors is simply an example your veiled bias.

Nope, it's just a stone cold fact at how he won those races. Ok, '99 can be ignored as it's a "what if", but his MSR win where Zabel sheered too early and his world wins in 2001 are pretty clear to me.

Of course it minimizes your victory if the only reason you won was because your opponent sheered too early. These cyclists want to win because they were the best, not because of something like that.

 

[Matthijs]

I'm just saying that you don't look blindly at someone's palmares, but have to look at in context to consider who's the best. Saying Freire's the best is a complete and utter joke.

I can see you haven't watched the '99 Worlds. VDB had some legendary form throughout the '99 season.


And Montreal is not a classic, while Clasica de San Sebastian is considered one.

None of Bettini's worlds wins was lucky. At least watch the races you talk about. If anything Valverde should thank Samu for what he did. He just wasn't faster than Zabel and Bettini.

thank you for still taking me seriously after my last joke/list
Don't worry, I just added montreal so I had a excuse to come up with Gesink and his crashes. Don't get me wrong: I know VDB was on super form that year. No one else could have stopped Boogerd that day on LBL!!!

Besides: Freire just played the surprise card in 99 and the others were stupid enough not to chase him. Especially Camenzind who should have worked for Zberg if I remember correctly. Freire outsprinted bettini and rebellin many times. If they are so stupid not to cooperate it's only fair they won't win.
Only his first MSR is really just lucky I think. But still, you have to be very near second many times to ones get such a luck...