Merckx picks Gilbert over Van den Broeck for good Tour finish

[El Pistolero]

lol. Ok ill try to explain this as best as i can. If you want to make a point regarding what someone said, you have to show the quote and the source. If you are not going to show me the quote, with a link showing that i made it, as far as im concerned, it doesnt exist. Its no good telling me, "you said something along the lines of...." No.Show the quote or pretend it wasnt made.

Otherwise, i might as well just say, I hate Contador because he said "all English people are stupid"

If i cant prove that he said this, then for all intents and purposes, the comment doesnt exist.




Who says El Pistoleros posts arent fun to read. Eh. Who says that? Cancellara killing himself for Andy doesnt count. Why? Get this. Because cobbles wont come up next year.

Genius D:

Thats my point. Chavanel did less than Canc (2 stages and 2 days in yellow vs 2 stages and 5 days in yellow). And yet with Chavanel it was "WOW" and with Canc it was "meh".

Cancellara killing him self on the cobbles? Hahaha. Then why was Andy Schleck able to hold on? Mate, he was holding in, not killing him self. He would've won without baby Schleck in his wheel.

Without Frank Schleck's crash I doubt they would've dropped Contador. Because if Cancellara would want to drop Contador he'd probably drop Andy Schleck as well.

Bolded part= That's because in my opinion road races are more prestigious than time trials(unless it's a totally flat stage without any difficulty won in a bunch sprint). I don't care who wears the yellow for a few days, only for the guy wearing the yellow in Paris. Of course Cancellara is going to wear the yellow jersey the first week. They took out bonus seconds and mostly the Tour starts with a prologue. Wanna make a bet that he won't wear the yellow jersey next year?

Owh, and Chavanel cracked his skull at LBL?

 

[The Hitch]

Without Frank Schleck's crash I doubt they would've dropped Contador. Because if Cancellara would want to drop Contador he'd probably drop Andy Schleck as well.

Thats true. Without Frank, Andy would never have dropped Contador.

But after Franks crash Saxo found themselves in a situation. Either Cancellara would work for Schleck to gain him time, or he wouldnt. So just because Frank crashed, doesnt mean we should underestimate Cancellaras roll. He spent the next 20 minutes or whatver, pulling hard at the front none stop, to create as big a gap for Schleck as he could.

We know that he did kill himself because when it came time for the finish, all the riders behind Canc went for a sprint, and Cancellara, with his mouth wide open, clearly suffering, came in last, with schleck patting him on the back.

 

[El Pistolero]

Thats true. Without Frank, Andy would never have dropped Contador.

But after Franks crash Saxo found themselves in a situation. Either Cancellara would work for Schleck to gain him time, or he wouldnt. So just because Frank crashed, doesnt mean we should underestimate Cancellaras roll. He spent the next 20 minutes or whatver, pulling hard at the front none stop, to create as big a gap for Schleck as he could.

We know that he did kill himself because when it came time for the finish, all the riders behind Canc went for a sprint, and Cancellara, with his mouth wide open, clearly suffering, came in last, with schleck patting him on the back.

Cancellara and sprinting don't mix well.

But my argument is that someone with Cancellara's talent shouldn't waste his Tour for a fool like Andy. If AS was a little bit smarter he'd have won the Tour. He already stuffed up at the prologue. Of course now he'll still win the Tour by default, but I'll always consider him second. I want to see Cancellara do what he did in 2007. He hasn't done that ever since. He's boring in the Tour.

 

[c&cfan]

Cancellara and sprinting don't mix well.

But my argument is that someone with Cancellara's talent shouldn't waste his Tour for a fool like Andy. If AS was a little bit smarter he'd have won the Tour. He already stuffed up at the prologue. Of course now he'll still win the Tour by default, but I'll always consider him second. I want to see Cancellara do what he did in 2007. He hasn't done that ever since. He's boring in the Tour.

i have to agree with you in this one.

i dont understand what he is doing (if he goes to team shleck). if he was going to other team, even a "smaller" one, he would always be their leader in classics and tour. obviously that he wouldnt win the tour (at least in the first years. but never say never) but without the need of always protecting and working for someone, he could win the TTs (most demanding area of cycling. it seems like you didnt understand, but the ones that are fighting for victory and GC end with nothing left!this means that there's nothing harder than a important TT.) and maybe 1..2..or even 3 stages! the champs for example..he ended 7th place in a sprint that was won by bennati if i'm not mistaken.

note: when i said that canc vs gilbert in the sprints, it was something like 1.5km. the two of them. i believe that cancellara IS ABLE TO BEAT GILBERT maybe 3 or 4 in 10 =\= cancellara will always beat gilbert. afterall he already did that against much faster cyclists..

note2: my fav riders, cancellara, boonen, gilbert, contador, cavendish. riders that i dont like: ricco, nibali, gesink, boom etc. see?gilbert and bonnen are in my fav list.

sorry dutch mafia.

dude, like it or not, right know, cancellara is the best classic specialist. like rebelin said "i dont give a sh+t about ending in second. only the wins matters." and like it or not, cancellara CAN win LBL. and i am not talking about 200km breaks. i am talking about killing them. cancellara, just like gilbert, are about the same age and are evolving in classics events.cancellara already has 3 monuments (4victories) not to mention the rest like TT or GC wins.

in my opinion, cancellara is (with contador) simply the best, that's why he won velo d'or.

 

[Matthijs]

Perhaps, but there's also the possibility that FDJ wasn't using Gilbert his full potential. But we'll never know how much that affected Gilbert. Don't even know why he remained there for such a long time(I'm not calling FDJ a bad team or anything, but for someone like Gilbert...).

Gilbert won the Coupe the France for FDJ. At a young age he had all the freedom to captain in his favourite races at the cobbles and Ardennes. Finding his strong and weaker points the way he couldn't when he had to work his *** of for some older captain. I think he made the right decision back then.

Off course Gilbert is way better at classics. Besides winning more classics he also won more semi-classic. We know Cancellara can do well at one-day races. Why do we allmost never see him really compete? (I'll come to that)
Also the famous consitency argument counts in a way: all his top10's are no wins, but show strength. Shows he knows all the races, how to handle the parcours and ride the finish at top-level.
Getting a top10 result at the actual parcour of a race is much more likely to end up in a win in the future then Mendrisio where Cancellara one time in all his career showed something in line with the needs for LBL. I think it strange too that he didn't compete PT and Lombardia when he was in hilly-form from Mendrisio if he seriously thinks he can win it some day.
As for Cancellara great focus: every classic rider does that, focus on the classics. Most classic riders aren't this succesfull at the 5 monuments so why people still find this focus special? Because Cancellara is only half a classic rider: he targets too many other things besides like the GT (prologue, TT's, domestique duties) and worlds TT.

In the end it's just about the numbers I think.
Monuments Gilbert vs Canc 2 vs 4
Classics 6 vs. 4
of course a monument is better, but is it so much better that it counts for 1,5 classic? I tend to say it doesn't.

Does everybody really believe the press-statements about LBL being the goal? I personally think some teamcaptain wants him to target PR and Rvv again. Maybe he chose the team where they promised the most freedom? And so, does he really want to sacrafice his changes at the cobbles? I doubt it in the first hilly-Canc-79k year. He should first try to win the cobbles again and in autumn try for worlds/PT/Lombardia...

Some other comments:
On the Cancellara gets every win he really wants: he did like 5 years over Rvv. n this line it takes at least 5 years for LBL and not next year like some people in their admiration tend to imply.
Just wonder: Gilbert won PT and Lombardia both twice in a row (08/09 and 09/10). Maybe not the Rvv-PR double, but how many guys won both races two years in a row?

 

[Franklin]

In the end it's just about the numbers I think.
Monuments Gilbert vs Canc 2 vs 4
Classics 6 vs. 4
of course a monument is better, but is it so much better that it counts for 1,5 classic? I tend to say it doesn't.

Stretching the numbers a bit? It's 5 classics of which two are monuments versus 4 monuments. Paris tours simply isn't in the same league as the monuments.

 

[El Pistolero]

Stretching the numbers a bit? It's 5 classics of which two are monuments versus 4 monuments. Paris tours simply isn't in the same league as the monuments.

It isn't, but there really isn't that much difference in terms of prestige between Paris-Tours and Milan-San Remo as some people think. I actually think Paris-Tours is a better race as the little hills near the end of the race make it harder for the sprinters to actually win.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

But the starting field in Paris Tours however is much much weaker than San Remo. Not to mention the form of the starting riders.

I don't think Paris Tours is much better than your average 1.1 french one-day race

 

[El Pistolero]

But the starting field in Paris Tours however is much much weaker than San Remo. Not to mention the form of the starting riders.

I don't think Paris Tours is much better than your average 1.1 french one-day race

It's right after the Worlds. How bad can your form be?

Well, I don't think Milan-San Remo is better than your average Tour stage =D

2000 · Andrea Tafi(won 3 Monuments)
2001 · Richard Virenque
2002 · Jakob Piil
2003 · Erik Zabel(won MSR)
2004 · Erik Dekker(sucks to be him. His 2 biggest wins are a 1.1 Dutch race and a 1.1 French race. Poor guy)
2005 · Erik Zabel(won MSR)
2006 · Frédéric Guesdon
2007 · Alessandro Petacchi(won MSR)
2008 · Philippe Gilbert(won 2 Monuments)
2009 · Philippe Gilbert(won 2 Monuments)
2010 · Óscar Freire(won MSR)
^^
I wouldn't call that a weak field.

 

[theyoungest]

It isn't, but there really isn't that much difference in terms of prestige between Paris-Tours and Milan-San Remo as some people think. I actually think Paris-Tours is a better race as the little hills near the end of the race make it harder for the sprinters to actually win.

Yeah right. Maybe in the Belgian press it isn't, but for normal people Milan-San Remo>>>>>>Paris-Tours, however boring either of the races may be.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah right. Maybe in the Belgian press it isn't, but for normal people Milan-San Remo>>>>>>Paris-Tours, however boring either of the races may be.

Normal people most likely have never heard of any of these races or that there are monuments in cycling. Just sayin'

For me Milan-San Remo will always be the least of the Monuments. Doesn't have anything to do with being Belgian, seeing as Tom Boonen has a good shot at every MSR he enters. I just don't care about the race.

 

[theyoungest]

Normal people most likely have never heard of any of these races or that there are monuments in cycling. Just sayin'

For me Milan-San Remo will always be the least of the Monuments. Doesn't have anything to do with being Belgian, seeing as Tom Boonen has a good shot at every MSR he enters. I just don't care about the race.

Ah, for you, you say. Now we're talking. But just ask Oscar Freire which race he was most happy to win this year.

And for God's sake, don't include Tom Boonen in every discussion.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ah, for you, you say. Now we're talking. But just ask Oscar Freire which race he was most happy to win this year.

And for God's sake, don't include Tom Boonen in every discussion.

Don't include the word Belgian in every discussion.

Of course he'll say Milan-San Remo, but the difference is not that huge as some people here think. As I said in my earlier post. Paris-Tours is NOT an average 1.1 French race. It has a good date, lot's of history, always a good field and the final 20km of the race are usually pretty exciting. Sure, it doesn't come close to the 4 real monuments, but MSR? It does come close.

 

[The Hitch]

On the Cancellara gets every win he really wants: he did like 5 years over Rvv. n this line it takes at least 5 years for LBL and not next year like some people in their admiration tend to impl

Interesting. I havent seen anyone say Cancellara will win LBL next year. Please show me a quote where someone (on this forum) says this. Otherwise dont make that claim again.

Mendrisio where Cancellara one time in all his career showed something in line with the needs for LBL

Weve been over this. Its not just Mendrisio. Its olympics. Its TDS. Its Tirreno Adriatico. And before anyone starts mocking me for "suggesting" that these races are similar to LBL, thats not what im saying. The quote says "something in line with the needs for LBL". THat something is clearly climbing which Canc supposedly cant do. And those are the races where he has shown he can.

In the end it's just about the numbers I think.
Monuments Gilbert vs Canc 2 vs 4
Classics 6 vs. 4
of course a monument is better, but is it so much better that it counts for 1,5 classic? I tend to say it doesn't.

Its a bit cheap to adjust the table in such a way that Cancellaras monuments - clearly in a league of their own, count as much as gilberts non monument wins. And if you are going to count Oomlop, bare in mind Canc has won E3 Prijs and Montepaschi Strade Bianchi. Sure Gilbert has won other classics as well but its not like Canc only wins monuments.

At the end of the day, Paris Roubaix is bigger, way bigger than Paris Tours, so its a bit silly to give them equal billing in a comparison, then declare Gilbert the winner.
And it ignores the fact that other races do exist for Cancellara. Hes won all that while doing other stuff. Gilbert hasnt. While Canc is focusing a season round world tt, TDF, Vuelta, various stage races, Gilbert can win Paris TOurs and Oomlop as many times as he wants.

So to conclude

Off course Gilbert is way better at classics.

No he isnt.

 

[The Hitch]

It's right after the Worlds. How bad can your form be?

Well, I don't think Milan-San Remo is better than your average Tour stage =D

2000 · Andrea Tafi(won 3 Monuments)
2001 · Richard Virenque
2002 · Jakob Piil
2003 · Erik Zabel(won MSR)
2004 · Erik Dekker(sucks to be him. His 2 biggest wins are a 1.1 Dutch race and a 1.1 French race. Poor guy)
2005 · Erik Zabel(won MSR)
2006 · Frédéric Guesdon
2007 · Alessandro Petacchi(won MSR)
2008 · Philippe Gilbert(won 2 Monuments)
2009 · Philippe Gilbert(won 2 Monuments)
2010 · Óscar Freire(won MSR)
^^
I wouldn't call that a weak field.

Lol. Field reffers to the quality of the peloton not the winner

For example, if i were to show someone the last 5 or so winners of the Luxemburg national championship road race, they might think it was some sort of a monument. But in reality the feild wasnt all that.

 

[El Pistolero]

Lol. Field reffers to the quality of the peloton not the winner

For example, if i were to show someone the last 5 or so winners of the Luxemburg national championship road race, they might think it was some sort of a monument. But in reality the feild wasnt all that.

You're really comparing Luxembourg Nationals to Paris-Tours? Sheesh. If Paris-Tours has a bad field than so does Milan-San Remo I'm afraid. You'll find more names than just 2 persons on the win list of Paris-Tours. Most people that come from the Worlds go to Paris-Tours as well. But I get it, the Worlds has a bad field as well.

Gilbert does more in a whole season than Cancellara, so stop that bullcrap argument please. Compare there racing days and you'll find a huge difference.

Every classics cyclist focuses on the Worlds and on a particular GT. Cancellara is not an exception. They ALL do it. Why? Because it's perfectly combinable.

You're saying Gilbert does nothing besides Classics and then you say Cancellara did the Vuelta? Lol, I never saw him during the whole thing besides the time trial. And Gilbert did nothing during that Vuelta right?

Ps: How does a practically flat Tirreno-Adriatico, one of the least mountainous Tour de Suisse editions in decades and Beijing where he got dropped on the climbs every time indicate he can win LBL?

 

[theyoungest]

Don't include the word Belgian in every discussion.

Hm, you must have me confused with someone else, I try to keep nationality out of it... although in your case it's quite hard, because your Belgian bias seeps from every word.

 

[El Pistolero]

Hm, you must have me confused with someone else, I try to keep nationality out of it... although in your case it's quite hard, because your Belgian bias seeps from every word.

No, you don't.

 

[The Hitch]

You're really comparing Luxembourg Nationals to Paris-Tours? Sheesh.

Yep

Every classics cyclist focuses on the Worlds and on a particular GT. Cancellara is not an exception.

Then why doesnt every classics rider work their *** of a gt contender every once in a while. And why doesnt aevery classics rider win an average of 2 gt stages and an average of 8 days in a leaders jersey a year. + why doesnt the average classics rider Win a top top stage race like Tour de Suisse or TA every once in a while.

There is a difference between riding a race, and actually focusing, and doing a hell of a job in a race..

Gilbert does more in a whole season than Cancellara, so stop that bullcrap argument please.

.

Why? Because you say so? interesting argument but heres my responce.

Gilbert 2010

1st Stage 3 Vuelta a Espa&#241]
1st Giro di Lombardia
1st Giro del Piemonte
3rd Gent–Wevelgem
3rd Ronde van Vlaanderen
3rd Liège–Bastogne–Liège

Cancellara 2010

1st UCI Road World Championship Time Trial
1st Paris–Roubaix
1st Ronde van Vlaanderen
1st Prologue Tour de Suisse
1st E3 Prijs Vlaanderen
1st Overall Tour of Oman
1st Prologue Tour de France
1st Stage 19 (ITT) Tour de France
Held Maillot Jaune Jersey yellow. from Prologue - Stage 1 and Stage 3 - 7



Gilbert 2009

1st Giro di Lombardia
1st Paris–Tours
1st Stage 20 Giro d'Italia
1st Giro del Piemonte
1st Coppa Sabatini
3rd Ronde van Vlaanderen
4th Amstel Gold Race
4th Liège–Bastogne–Liège
1st Overall Ster Elektrotoer

Cancellara 2009

1st .PNG UCI Road World Championship Time Trial
1st Stage 1, Tour de France (ITT)
Held Maillot Jaune Jersey yellow. from Stages 1–6
1st Stage 1 (ITT) Vuelta a España
1st Stage 7 (ITT) Vuelta a España
Held Jersey Oro for Stages 1–4 & 7
1st Prologue, Tour of California
1st Overall Tour de Suisse
1st Prologue
1st Stage 9 (ITT)



Gilbert 2008

1st Overall Vuelta a Mallorca
1st Paris–Tours
1st Omloop Het Volk
1st Trofeo Mallorca
1st Trofeo Soller
1st Le Samyn
2nd Brabantse Pijl
2nd Stage 1 Tour de France
3rd Milan – San Remo

Cancellara 2008

1st Gold medal. Olympic Time Trial Champion
2nd Silver medal. Olympic Road Race
2nd Paris Roubaix
1st Milan – San Remo
1st Prologue, Tour of California
1st Monte Paschi Eroica
1st Jersey Overall Tirreno–Adriatico
1st Stage 5
1st Stage 7 Tour de Suisse
1st Stage 9 Tour de Suisse


Gilbert 2007

Ouch

Cancelllara 2007

1st UCI Road World Championship Time Trial
1st Prologue Tour de France
1st Stage 3 Tour de France
Held Maillot Jaune Jersey from Stages 1–7
1st Prologue Tour of Switzerland
1st Stage 9 Tour of Switzerland


Gilbert 2006

1st Omloop Het Volk
1st GP de Wallonie
1st Stage 7 Eneco Tour of Benelux
1st GP de Fourmies
1st Stage 2 Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré


Cancellara 2006

1stPNG UCI Road World Championship Time Trial
1st Paris–Roubaix
1st Stage 5 Tirreno–Adriatico
1st Jersey yellow. Overall Danmark Rundt
1st Stage 1 TTT Vuelta a España


Yep. As you said. On average, Gilbert does way more in a season than Cancellara

 

[The Hitch]

El Pistolero. This has to be your piece de resistance

. And before anyone starts mocking me for "suggesting" that these races are similar to LBL, thats not what im saying.

I said that, specifically with you in mind. And yet...

Ps: How does a practically flat Tirreno-Adriatico, one of the least mountainous Tour de Suisse editions in decades and Beijing where he got dropped on the climbs every time indicate he can win LBL?

 

[theyoungest]

No, you don't.

Evidence, my friend. That's all that's needed here, rather than your bigotry.

 

[El Pistolero]

I hope you realize that list is terribly flawed.

For example, it doesn't include the Worlds this year where Gilbert was strong. Nor does it include the times he got second at the Nationals. Against a way stronger field than Cancellara's nationals.

Monte Paschi Eroica took place before Milan-San Remo, so you even got your colors wrong. You also forgot some victories by the way, and all of them of Gilbert(you forgot more than 5 victories of him in 2008/2009).

Nor should any of Cancellara's yellow jerseys count as a win. He won the prologue, so obviously he gets to wear the yellow jersey for a week. A prologue is not even worth a full win, let alone you count it as a double one... You shouldn't even count Gilbert's red jersey. It's not a win.

 

[El Pistolero]

Evidence, my friend. That's all that's needed here, rather than your bigotry.

Don't use words that you don't know the meaning of please.

El Pistolero. This has to be your piece de resistance


I said that, specifically with you in mind. And yet...

Then DONT use them as an indicator he can win LBL. Or place well without drastically changing his weight.

 

[The Hitch]

I hope you realize that list is terribly flawed.

For example, it doesn't include the Worlds this year where Gilbert was strong. Nor does it include the times he got second at the Nationals. Against a way stronger field than Cancellara's nationals.

Monte Paschi Eroica took place before Milan-San Remo, so you even got your colors wrong. You also forgot some victories by the way.

Ok, ill edit out Cancellaras nat champ. Your right, thats unfair. On the other hand i forgot Cancellara 2008 came 2nd in PR.

THe color hiaarchy was prestige of victory. You should notice that Canc with his monuments and World championships and olympic golds has way more red.

Orange was respectable, like a GT stage or a classic or a Monument podium.

Pink was minor. Notice that Gilbert has a lot more pink.

What victories did i forget. I didnt include things like stage 1 tour of mallorca because frankly i think that would embarass Gilbert more than help him.

And if Gilbert didnt win the road race and came 6th, then it doesnt count. Cycling is about winning you know. I didnt include Cancellaras top 5 in worlds either.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ok, ill edit out Cancellaras nat champ. Your right, thats unfair. On the other hand i forgot Cancellara 2008 came 2nd in PR.

THe color hiaarchy was prestige of victory. You should notice that Canc with his monuments and World championships and olympic golds has way more red.

Orange was respectable, like a GT stage or a classic or a Monument podium.

Pink was minor. Notice that Gilbert has a lot more pink.

What victories did i forget. I didnt include things like stage 1 tour of mallorca because frankly i think that would embarass Gilbert more than help him.

And if Gilbert didnt win the road race and came 6th, then it doesnt count. Cycling is about winning you know. I didnt include Cancellaras top 5 in worlds either.

Yet you included a prologue of the ToC. God, what a bias. He won 2 stages there, might actually want to watch it though. Beats the ToC quite easily

You forgot stage wins at the Tour of Belgium, stage wins at the Ster Elektro Tour,etc

We weren't talking about winning, we weren't talking about who has the best palmares, we were talking about who performs well during a whole season. And that's Gilbert and not Cancellara. At least try and not change the subject. You don't need to win to perform well in a race. Do you honestly think I don't know who has the best palmares of the two? Please...

Ps: Winning a TTT is not even respectable.