Merckx picks Gilbert over Van den Broeck for good Tour finish

[The Hitch]

Or I read over that part?

What you say is complete bull**** though.

Cancellara didn't enter Lombardia. So how was he close to winning that hilly classic? I wasn't talking about the Worlds or the Olympics. I'm just saying if he was so good at hilly races in those years then why didn't he enter Lombardia, LBL, AGR or FW?
And you ignore 2 years in your history. 2007 and 2009. He failed at his spring classic goals then. But of course you ignored that.

2009: Philippe Gilbert peaked at MSR, peaked at the RVV, peaked at LBL, peaked at the Giro d'italia, peaked at the worlds, peaked at Paris-Tours, he peaked at the Giro di Lombardia.
2010: Philippe Gilbert peaked at MSR, peaked at the RVV, peaked at LBL, peaked at the Vuelta, peaked at the Worlds, peaked at the Giro di Lombardia.

No Cancellara can't get a peaking excuse here. He didn't win Lombardia in those 2 years because he knew he was chanceless and didn't bother entering.

First of all is there any need for profanity. We are having a nice little discussion here about cycling. Not divisive things like war, politics and football.

A uniting thing - cycling.

I enjoy debating with you El Pistolero. Calling what i say "*****t" doesnt really make much of an argument.


And what I think you ignore is that Cancellara was not focusing on hilly classics in 2004-10. He has been a tt and cobbled rider who has focused on cobbled races and tts in gts. In none of those seasons did he treat lbl or Lombardy as a target.

Now Cancellara has said that LBL is his target. He is abandoning all other hopes on that. A seemingly guaranteed PR podium if not win. Chances at RVV. all abandoned for LBL.

So to answer your question, THATS why he hasnt even raced Lombardy or LBL. because he didnt care about it.

Now he does care. And hell hath no fury like Cancellara focusing all his talent on 1 cycle race.

 

[El Pistolero]

First of all is there any need for profanity. We are having a nice little discussion here about cycling. Not divisive things like war, politics and football.

A uniting thing - cycling.

I enjoy debating with you El Pistolero. Calling what i say "*****t" doesnt really make much of an argument.


And what I think you ignore is that Cancellara was not focusing on hilly classics in 2004-10. He has been a tt and cobbled rider who has focused on cobbled races and tts in gts. In none of those seasons did he treat lbl or Lombardy as a target.

Now Cancellara has said that LBL is his target. He is abandoning all other hopes on that. A seemingly guaranteed PR podium if not win. Chances at RVV. all abandoned for LBL.

So to answer your question, THATS why he hasnt even raced Lombardy or LBL. because he didnt care about it.

Now he does care. And hell hath no fury like Cancellara focusing all his talent on 1 cycle race.

Yes, but if you want to use Mendrisio and Beijing as an indicator he can win hilly classics then why didn't Cancellara enter one those years? Seems absurd to me. It's not that he had a long season, Gilbert has more racing days in a season than Cancellara. Perhaps just not mentally strong enough I guess.

A true classics specialist doesn't need to focus everything on just one race and sacrifice everything else anyway. That's why I'll always find Gilbert a better classics specialist even if the statistics don't agree.

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, but if you want to use Mendrisio and Beijing as an indicator he can win hilly classics then why didn't Cancellara enter one those years? .

As i said, because he didnt care. He wasnt focused on it, it wasnt one of his goals, and LBL and GDL can be pretty painful to ride. Theres no point wasting energy on a race you dont care about at that particular time. He needed the 3 less hilly ones first. With those in the bag, now the great eye turns its gaze on the ardennes.

Seems absurd to me. It's not that he had a long season, Gilbert has more racing days in a season than Cancellara. Perhaps just not mentally strong enough I guess.

And you say you dont hate Cancellara. Come on, the guys won so many hard races, a bit harsh to call him not mentaly tough enough. Doing a 50k paris roubaix time trial isnt a walk in the park you know. But yes maybe Gilbert is stronger in that respect.

A true classics specialist doesn't need to focus everything on just one race and sacrifice everything else anyway. That's why I'll always find Gilbert a better classics specialist even if the statistics don't agree

You can do that and its your opinion. Maybe there is something to that. But i think Gilberts status as a better classics specialist than Cancellara is somewhat undermined by the fact that every Gilbert thread has ended up with arguments about whether cancellara can win all 5.

And not all of them have been hijacked by me.

 

[El Pistolero]

As i said, because he didnt care. He wasnt focused on it, it wasnt one of his goals, and LBL and GDL can be pretty painful to ride. Theres no point wasting energy on a race you dont care about at that particular time. He needed the 3 less hilly ones first. With those in the bag, now the great eye turns its gaze on the ardennes.


And you say you dont hate Cancellara. Come on, the guys won so many hard races, a bit harsh to call him not mentaly tough enough. Doing a 50k paris roubaix time trial isnt a walk in the park you know. But yes maybe Gilbert is stronger in that respect.



You can do that and its your opinion. Maybe there is something to that. But i think Gilberts status as a better classics specialist than Cancellara is somewhat undermined by the fact that every Gilbert thread has ended up with arguments about whether cancellara can win all 5.

And not all of them have been hijacked by me.

I call not performing well the entire season because you don't care not mentally strong enough in that aspect.
Not mentally strong enough doesn't mean you're mentally weak or anything.

I think another important detail that is often overlooked is that Gilbert only broke through last 2-3 years. Cancellara broke through in 2005(could have won Roubaix that year if he didn't get a flat. Although I doubt he could drop Boonen that day, we'll never know, but he was very strong there.). That's 6 seasons versus 3. That's 4 classic wins versus 5.

Ps: I'm not saying Cancellara will never win LBL or GdL. But I don't see him doing all that well on his very first try, that's all. It's about as believable as Armstrong turning into a 7 time Tour winner all of a sudden. Or Contador's meat defense if you will. Or even better, about as believable as Gilbert winning Roubaix in his first year trying it.

 

[The Hitch]

.

I think another important detail that is often overlooked is that Gilbert only broke through last 2-3 years. Cancellara broke through in 2005(could have won Roubaix that year if he didn't get a flat. Although I doubt he could drop Boonen that day, we'll never know, but he was very strong there.). That's 6 seasons versus 3. That's 4 classic wins versus 5.

So Gilbert should be given + points for lack of longevity?

Id say, that in the same way that Gilbert is stronger for competing in 10 races a seson, Cancellara is stronger for competing from a young age, rather than from mid age. No?

 

[El Pistolero]

So Gilbert should be given + points for lack of longevity?

Id say, that in the same way that Gilbert is stronger for competing in 10 races a seson, Cancellara is stronger for competing from a young age, rather than from mid age. No?

Perhaps, but there's also the possibility that FDJ wasn't using Gilbert his full potential. But we'll never know how much that affected Gilbert. Don't even know why he remained there for such a long time(I'm not calling FDJ a bad team or anything, but for someone like Gilbert...).

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Indeed, Gilbert only started to do really well in the big classics since his Lotto period.

And yes El Pistolero will drag MSR and PT into it. But I don't think that highly of those races (half-sprinter classics).

 

[El Pistolero]

Indeed, Gilbert only started to do really well in the big classics since his Lotto period.

And yes El Pistolero will drag MSR and PT into it. But I don't think that highly of those races (half-sprinter classics).

Don't you mean Amstel Gold Race?

Seeing as including MSR plays into Cancellara's advantage.

If a sprinter wins MSR I don't rate it as high as Amstel Gold. If someone like Cancellara wins it I rate it way higher than Amster Gold Race.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

So how can you then possibly think that Gilbert is a better overall classics rider than Cancellara?

 

[El Pistolero]

So how can you then possibly think that Gilbert is a better overall classics rider than Cancellara?

Because Gilbert does well in all the classics in one season except Paris-Roubaix. While Cancellara has ****ed up numerous spring campaigns. And he only focuses on RVV/P-R(they all focus for MSR as well, but that race is a lottery race...)

How can I not possibly think Gilbert is overall better than Cancellara? Under your logic Boonen is a better classics rider than Cancellara(has done better at the cobbled classics, won the world road race, has a lot of top 10 placings at MSR although never won it).

Ps: in terms of wins in the classics Cancellara is obviously better than Gilbert. I think you're getting me wrong here lol.

 

[c&cfan]

Because Gilbert does well in all the classics in one season except Paris-Roubaix. While Cancellara has ****ed up numerous spring campaigns. And he only focuses on RVV/P-R(they all focus for MSR as well, but that race is a lottery race...)

How can I not possibly think Gilbert is overall better than Cancellara? Under your logic Boonen is a better classics rider than Cancellara(has done better at the cobbled classics, won the world road race, has a lot of top 10 placings at MSR although never won it).

Ps: in terms of wins in the classics Cancellara is obviously better than Gilbert. I think you're getting me wrong here lol.

gilbert is a great classics rider..

but please, as an overall rider, cancellara (even in the classics) is much better. people seem to forget that winning a tt is much harder than other stage since you give every pound of energy that you have, you cant save energy. cancellara peaks three times in a season and at least in two he is amazing, wining what he says that he is going to win.

gilbert has overall very good results in monuments, but he really is the best in one, where the other riders are tired or simply arent there. not only that, but gilbert isnt smart enough for races like LBL. lol he has luck because valverde (well..mentally he was weak this year. we know why) bettini (especially this guy) and rebelin and others arent here. (this is why gilbert wasnt great before 2007).


some of you may not agree, but put cancellara and gilbert in an uphill sprint, just the two of them, and cancellara has an huge chance of win. he isnt faster, but is smarter and stronger.

and wtf is that argument that gilbert is a year younger?lol like if that means something. please dont forget that each rider is unique, but riders like northern classics type last longer than hilly classics (rebellin is the exception). that argument means "****".

gilbert is only about classics so far. but cancellara has more wins in monuments (4 against 2 right?and 3 vs 1) more wins (especially overall) in stage races (tirreno suisse stages in tour etc) not to mention the tts were he is king and has 4 world titles.

not to mention the amazing teamwork that he does unlike gilbert.

but only in classics.. it's just obvious that cancellara can win LBL. he won suisse..tirreno..amazing performance in mendrisio and olimpics.. kills everyone in cobbled hills.. is very smart.. very strong.. he can win. has a good chance.

cancellara is much more than a rider for the classics like gilbert.

 

[theyoungest]

Because Gilbert does well in all the classics in one season except Paris-Roubaix. While Cancellara has ****ed up numerous spring campaigns. And he only focuses on RVV/P-R(they all focus for MSR as well, but that race is a lottery race...)

How can I not possibly think Gilbert is overall better than Cancellara? Under your logic Boonen is a better classics rider than Cancellara(has done better at the cobbled classics, won the world road race, has a lot of top 10 placings at MSR although never won it).

Ps: in terms of wins in the classics Cancellara is obviously better than Gilbert. I think you're getting me wrong here lol.

The fact that Gilbert has better form over an entire season doesn't necessarily mean that he's stronger than Cancellara... I don't think that Gilbert on top form can beat Cancellara on top form in Flanders or Roubaix. MSR is a bit of a toss-up, but it certainly isn't more favourable to Gilbert than Cancellara (who has, after all, won it already). That's 3 out of 5 Monuments in which Canc is the favourite. He's simply the stronger rider on any terrain not involving crazy amounts of climbing.

 

[The Hitch]

Because Gilbert does well in all the classics in one season except Paris-Roubaix. While Cancellara has ****ed up numerous spring campaigns. And he only focuses on RVV/P-R(they all focus for MSR as well, but that race is a lottery race...)

How can I not possibly think Gilbert is overall better than Cancellara? Under your logic Boonen is a better classics rider than Cancellara(has done better at the cobbled classics, won the world road race, has a lot of top 10 placings at MSR although never won it).

Ps: in terms of wins in the classics Cancellara is obviously better than Gilbert. I think you're getting me wrong here lol.

Boonen WAS a better classics rider than Canc. But the present has a short memory. So atm Canc is better.

As for Gilbert being a better classics rider (in the present) than Cancellara. I can see where you are coming from. (Belgium). Its a different argument to "who is more likely to win 5". There all the advantages are with Cancellara.

But "who is the better classics rider today"? I would say its really close. Gilbert can compete in many different classics a year, Canc generally focuses on 1 type. This gives the edge to Gilbert.

Still this year Cancellara produced the mother of all peformances twice in 1 week. This counts for a lot.

Had Gilbert won LBL he would be the better classics rider today, hands down. But he didnt, he only won the one monument. It was impressive, but is not as impressive as a 15k tt and a 50 k tt to win the 2 biggest one day races.

So Canc edges it.

Sorry

 

[El Pistolero]

gilbert is a great classics rider..

but please, as an overall rider, cancellara (even in the classics) is much better. people seem to forget that winning a tt is much harder than other stage since you give every pound of energy that you have, you cant save energy. cancellara peaks three times in a season and at least in two he is amazing, wining what he says that he is going to win.

gilbert has overall very good results in monuments, but he really is the best in one, where the other riders are tired or simply arent there. not only that, but gilbert isnt smart enough for races like LBL. lol he has luck because valverde (well..mentally he was weak this year. we know why) bettini (especially this guy) and rebelin and others arent here. (this is why gilbert wasnt great before 2007).


some of you may not agree, but put cancellara and gilbert in an uphill sprint, just the two of them, and cancellara has an huge chance of win. he isnt faster, but is smarter and stronger.

and wtf is that argument that gilbert is a year younger?lol like if that means something. please dont forget that each rider is unique, but riders like northern classics type last longer than hilly classics (rebellin is the exception). that argument means "****".

gilbert is only about classics so far. but cancellara has more wins in monuments (4 against 2 right?and 3 vs 1) more wins (especially overall) in stage races (tirreno suisse stages in tour etc) not to mention the tts were he is king and has 4 world titles.

not to mention the amazing teamwork that he does unlike gilbert.

but only in classics.. it's just obvious that cancellara can win LBL. he won suisse..tirreno..amazing performance in mendrisio and olimpics.. kills everyone in cobbled hills.. is very smart.. very strong.. he can win. has a good chance.

cancellara is much more than a rider for the classics like gilbert.

What a complete nonsense. If Cancellara can beat Gilbert in an uphill sprint where was he on all the uphill sprints Gilbert won? Probably sitting back in the peloton like he usually does in a Grand Tour. Winning lots of time trials? He has won 2 long time trials in a GT. 2. All others were just prologues. Riding 4km is not harder than riding a hilly 200km+ stage.

Gilbert is overall better at the classics than Cancellara. Why drag in time trials? They're not classic races. I'd rather win the Worlds road race than 4 Worlds time trials...

You heard it here guys! Filippo Pozatto and Oscar Freire can win LBL because they won Tirreno-Adriatico! Please, at least try and use rational arguments here.

The Tour de Suisse of 2009 wasn't nearly as mountainous as other years. It had more time trial kms in it than the Tour next year for crying out loud. Doesn't mean he can win LBL or GdL at all. Hence why he didn't even come top ten in this year's Tour de Suisse.

He's smarter? And you're using Mendrisio as an example why he is smarter? Smart is not the word I would use to describe Cancellara's performance at Mendrisio.

And why are you dragging Rebellin and Bettini in here lol? Philippe Gilbert finished just after Rebellin(in the same time) in LBL 2009. After riding a much more aggressive race than Rebellin. The guy is nearly 40 years old. And Vinokourov won LBL this year at the age of 37... But Rebellin is the only exception lol? Valverde is banned, deal with it. Oh by the way, Rebellin also finished in front of Cancellara at the Olympics. And who do you think won the Olympics that year? Was it Samu Sanchez? It was! Who did Gilbert beat at a race you say no one wants to enter(Giro di Lombardia)? Samu Sanchez! You're arguments are so messed up it's not even funny anymore to be honest.

If Miguel Indurain wasn't retired he would kick Cancellara in every time trial he enters! ---> That's the kind of arguments you're using here lol. He kills everyone in cobbled hills you say? He did that once in 2010. He failed to do that in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009... And yes he entered the Ronde van Vlaanderen in all those years(besides 2009 I think). He got beaten everytime. Why do people think he's unbeatable... Sheesh, talk about overhyped.

At least try and remember another year than 2010. Pretend you watched some races before this year.

The fact that you think Cancellara would beat Philippe Gilbert in an uphill sprint makes my blood cringe. Seriously, how on earth can you think something like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brDkDp25vh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwpUvQV7QaU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5KOg-uLUhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpRNg8bIzIE


Watch it. Then tell me one uphill part where Cancellara would beat Gilbert.

But let me guess, guys like Gesink, Andy Schleck, Frank Schleck, Samu Sanchez, Rodriguez, Nibali, Alberto Contador, etc are all nobodies?

 

[The Hitch]

He has won 2 long time trials in a GT. 2. All others were just prologues. Riding 4km is not harder than riding a hilly 200km+ stage.

Excuse me?
This year Cancellara won 1 long tt.

Last year he won a 30k tt in the Vuelta, and a 16k monaco tt with a hill in it (hardly a 4k prologue) You say "only 3". How many do you expect him to win, if you are discounting all the prologues he has won. Its not like you get 3 long tts a gt. Usually its just the one. And yet hes won them 3 times. Quite impressive no?

All this, despite the fact that he doesnt peak for them.

He has also won 4 50k + worlld tts. And the olympic 50k tt as well.

Word of advice, if you are going to attack Cancellara, try not to attack him on his long Individual time trial peformances. It really isnt his achilles heel

The Tour de Suisse of 2009 wasn't nearly as mountainous as other years. It had more time trial kms in it than the Tour next year for crying out loud. Doesn't mean he can win LBL or GdL at all. Hence why he didn't even come top ten in this year's Tour de Suisse.

He couldnt top 10 this years TDS because he didnt try. His goal for the season was RVV. PR 50k was the icing on the cake. TDS was already in the bag from 2009. He was clearly not on form.

 

[El Pistolero]

Boonen WAS a better classics rider than Canc. But the present has a short memory. So atm Canc is better.

As for Gilbert being a better classics rider (in the present) than Cancellara. I can see where you are coming from. (Belgium). Its a different argument to "who is more likely to win 5". There all the advantages are with Cancellara.

But "who is the better classics rider today"? I would say its really close. Gilbert can compete in many different classics a year, Canc generally focuses on 1 type. This gives the edge to Gilbert.

Still this year Cancellara produced the mother of all peformances twice in 1 week. This counts for a lot.

Had Gilbert won LBL he would be the better classics rider today, hands down. But he didnt, he only won the one monument. It was impressive, but is not as impressive as a 15k tt and a 50 k tt to win the 2 biggest one day races.

So Canc edges it.

Sorry

Boonen would have probably won the RVV if he wasn't forced to ride defensive in in 2008/2009. Doing that double seems quite common if you look at it that way. And it was about time Cancellara finally won RVV after all his years of trying and not even coming close. You make it sound like he only cared for the RVV in 2010 and then won it on his first serious try. That's simply not true at all.

Weren't you offended when I said in an other thread Cancellara won the RVV and P-R because of his time trial skills by the way?

 

[El Pistolero]

Excuse me?
This year Cancellara won 1 long tt.

Last year he won a 30k tt in the Vuelta, and a 16k monaco tt with a hill in it (hardly a 4k prologue) You say "only 3". How many do you expect him to win, if you are discounting all the prologues he has won. Its not like you get 3 long tts a gt. Usually its just the one. And yet hes won them 3 times. Quite impressive no?

All this, despite the fact that he doesnt peak for them.

He has also won 4 50k + worlld tts. And the olympic 50k tt as well.

Word of advice, if you are going to attack Cancellara, try not to attack him on his long Individual time trial peformances. It really isnt his achilles heel



He couldnt top 10 this years TDS because he didnt try. His goal for the season was RVV. PR 50k was the icing on the cake. TDS was already in the bag from 2009. He was clearly not on form.

That excuse is getting old fast really. You make Cancellara sound like the Andy Schleck of the classics to be honest.

And he only won 2 long time trials in a GT while C&Cfan said he won them all the time. He could win the time trials like Indurain did for example?

But hey I can use the same arguments as you. In 2009/2010 Gilbert didn't care for RVV, he came third because everyone else sucks besides Boonen and Cancellara. Next year it's his goal, so he's going to win it! Blablabla.

Saying Cancellara will win LBL next year because he said it's his goal and Cancellara always completes his goals(and he doesn't always complete them by the way) is a fallacy.

He didn't peak for the Tour? I'm pretty sure he does peak for the time trials in the Tour

 

[The Hitch]

Weren't you offended when I said in an other thread Cancellara won the RVV and P-R because of his time trial skills by the way?

What

I dont recall ever saying anything of the sort. And i certainatly wouldnt be offended by a cycling discussion of any sort

And he only won 2 long time trials in a GT while C&Cfan said he won them all the time. He could win the time trials like Indurain did for example?

No. As i pointed out. Hes won 3 long tts in gts.

 

[El Pistolero]

What

I dont recall ever saying anything of the sort. And i certainatly wouldnt be offended by a cycling discussion of any sort

No. As i pointed out. Hes won 3 long tts in gts.

I don't call a 16km time trial long. Certainly not as hard as a 200km+ hilly stage like C&Cfan said. Surprises me that you don't have anything to say about that post. But only react on mine.

And offended is a strong word, but you didn't agree with me when I said Cancellara time trailed away in both victories. As if I somehow offended Cancellara's victories.

Ps: Cancellara has been the best time trial specialist for 5-6 years now. Having only won 3 long TTs in a GT is not that impressive then.

There's also a reason why I am a Contador/Gilbert fan and not an Andy Schleck fan. They want to win every race they enter. They don't sit back in the peloton all day or getting drunk while he should be working for his brother. Now you make Cancellara sound like an Andy Schleck, I certainly don't agree with that or otherwise I wouldn't be a fan of him. The only disappointing thing about Cancellara is imo his performance at the Tour(doing almost nothing except in the time trials), but other then that he usually spices up the races he's in. Just not in GTs sadly(not for him self at least). We know what he can do if he really wants(Tour 2007), he should do it more in a GT. The fact that I like Gilbert or Contador has nothing to do with nationality, so stop trying to bring that up

I don't even like Spain or Belgium

 

[c&cfan]

What a complete nonsense. If Cancellara can beat Gilbert in an uphill sprint where was he on all the uphill sprints Gilbert won? Probably sitting back in the peloton like he usually does in a Grand Tour. Winning lots of time trials? He has won 2 long time trials in a GT. 2. All others were just prologues. Riding 4km is not harder than riding a hilly 200km+ stage.

Gilbert is overall better at the classics than Cancellara. Why drag in time trials? They're not classic races. I'd rather win the Worlds road race than 4 Worlds time trials...

You heard it here guys! Filippo Pozatto and Oscar Freire can win LBL because they won Tirreno-Adriatico! Please, at least try and use rational arguments here.

The Tour de Suisse of 2009 wasn't nearly as mountainous as other years. It had more time trial kms in it than the Tour next year for crying out loud. Doesn't mean he can win LBL or GdL at all. Hence why he didn't even come top ten in this year's Tour de Suisse.

He's smarter? And you're using Mendrisio as an example why he is smarter? Smart is not the word I would use to describe Cancellara's performance at Mendrisio.

And why are you dragging Rebellin and Bettini in here lol? Philippe Gilbert finished just after Rebellin(in the same time) in LBL 2009. After riding a much more aggressive race than Rebellin. The guy is nearly 40 years old. And Vinokourov won LBL this year at the age of 37... But Rebellin is the only exception lol? Valverde is banned, deal with it. Oh by the way, Rebellin also finished in front of Cancellara at the Olympics. And who do you think won the Olympics that year? Was it Samu Sanchez? It was! Who did Gilbert beat at a race you say no one wants to enter(Giro di Lombardia)? Samu Sanchez! You're arguments are so messed up it's not even funny anymore to be honest.

If Miguel Indurain wasn't retired he would kick Cancellara in every time trial he enters! ---> That's the kind of arguments you're using here lol. He kills everyone in cobbled hills you say? He did that once in 2010. He failed to do that in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009... And yes he entered the Ronde van Vlaanderen in all those years(besides 2009 I think). He got beaten everytime. Why do people think he's unbeatable... Sheesh, talk about overhyped.

At least try and remember another year than 2010. Pretend you watched some races before this year.

The fact that you think Cancellara would beat Philippe Gilbert in an uphill sprint makes my blood cringe. Seriously, how on earth can you think something like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brDkDp25vh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwpUvQV7QaU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5KOg-uLUhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpRNg8bIzIE


Watch it. Then tell me one uphill part where Cancellara would beat Gilbert.

But let me guess, guys like Gesink, Andy Schleck, Frank Schleck, Samu Sanchez, Rodriguez, Nibali, Alberto Contador, etc are all nobodies?

if you dont know how to read that is your problem.

i didnt say that cancellara can win LBL because he won in tirreno.
i said that cancellara can win LBL because what he did in tirreno PLUS suisse PLUS mendrisio PLUS beijing.

cancellara works like hell to help andy..
if you do the maths, andy only stayed on podium because of stage 3. and on top 5 because of stage 2. in both stages cancellara did an amazing job xD

and 16km TT can be harder than or as hard as a 200km stage OBVIOUSLY!!! since you end with 0 left in the tank..

i didnt said that cancellara will win every sprint against gilbert. i said that gilbert vs canc, top form, just the two, and the chances are 60 40. cancellara is much smarter and stronger and thats why he CAN beat someone faster.
you are talking about this year worlds when cancellara wasnt in the same shape than in the last year (not only phisically).

and yes.. if cancellara peaked for the tour (and only the tour), he would kill them in the TT. (dont forget that doing a tt after 3 weaks isnt the same to do it without those. weaks. still, cancellara is the man.)

and one thing that you are missing.. we are only saying that cancellara CAN WIN LBL and that he is better rider (even if you only see the classics) than gilbert. we are not saying that cancellara will win it. but i bet that one day he will.

please.. vino is a stage racer and obviously i was talking among the favourits for the win.

so..like it or not, only for gilbert fans the top ten in monuments are important. the only thing that really matters for those guys is WINNING!!!! look to what rebelin said after the end of the olimpics for example.

so as a classics racer, cancellara is better (not only because he wins more, but because the way he wins. that's power).

as a rider as a whole.. you have to be kidding. lol


p.s____ you may not see cancellara, but he was vital again this year. and he also works a lot in other stages. when he isnt working, he is taking the wind with andy behind him.

 

[El Pistolero]

if you dont know how to read that is your problem.

i didnt say that cancellara can win LBL because he won in tirreno.
i said that cancellara can win LBL because what he did in tirreno PLUS suisse PLUS mendrisio PLUS beijing.

cancellara works like hell to help andy..
if you do the maths, andy only stayed on podium because of stage 3. and on top 5 because of stage 2. in both stages cancellara did an amazing job xD

and 16km TT can be harder than or as hard as a 200km stage OBVIOUSLY!!! since you end with 0 left in the tank..

i didnt said that cancellara will win every sprint against gilbert. i said that gilbert vs canc, top form, just the two, and the chances are 60 40. cancellara is much smarter and stronger and thats why he CAN beat someone faster.
you are talking about this year worlds when cancellara wasnt in the same shape than in the last year (not only phisically).

and yes.. if cancellara peaked for the tour (and only the tour), he would kill them in the TT. (dont forget that doing a tt after 3 weaks isnt the same to do it without those. weaks. still, cancellara is the man.)

and one thing that you are missing.. we are only saying that cancellara CAN WIN LBL and that he is better rider (even if you only see the classics) than gilbert. we are not saying that cancellara will win it. but i bet that one day he will.

please.. vino is a stage racer and obviously i was talking among the favourits for the win.

so..like it or not, only for gilbert fans the top ten in monuments are important. the only thing that really matters for those guys is WINNING!!!! look to what rebelin said after the end of the olimpics for example.

so as a classics racer, cancellara is better (not only because he wins more, but because the way he wins. that's power).

as a rider as a whole.. you have to be kidding. lol


p.s____ you may not see cancellara, but he was vital again this year. and he also works a lot in other stages. when he isnt working, he is taking the wind with andy behind him.

I get it, if Cancellara loses he's out of form because no one can beat Cancellara in form... Oh please, cry me a river. If Cancellara can't hold up form multiple times a year than that's his problem. Stop using it as an excuse.

You're joking if you think Cancellara had a harder season than Gilbert this year. Stop using dumb excuses please.

Vino is a stage racer? Vino is also a hilly classics specialist. Duh.

Changes of Cancellara beating Gilbert in an uphill sprint is 0-100. Gilbert would always win. Now Cancellara is also the best sprinter of the two? Haha. I hope you're kidding. And why would Cancellara be smarter all of a sudden? I get it, you hate Belgian cyclists, get over it. Gilbert is practically unbeatable in small sprints. Hence why he beat Boonen at Paris-Tours.

I don't even think Cancellara has ever won a bunch sprint or small sprint except that stage in the Tour of 2007. He always loses in small sprints(both flat and uphill sprints)

Ps: Funny you mentioned Paolo Bettini in one of your earlier post. Paolo Bettini called Philippe Gilbert to be his successor. Not Cancellara.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't call a 16km time trial long. Certainly not as hard as a 200km+ hilly stage like C&Cfan said. Surprises me that you don't have anything to say about that post. But only react on mine.

Umm this is what you said

He has won 2 long time trials in a GT. 2. All others were just prologues. Riding 4km is not harder than riding a hilly 200km+ stage.

"All others were just prologues". A prologue is up to 8 k. Monaco 2009 was twice that. 4 times the 4k you suggest.

And offended is a strong word, but you didn't agree with me when I said Cancellara time trailed away in both victories. As if I somehow offended Cancellara's victories.

Please show me the incident you are talking about. Simply claiming that it occured does you no good. Without showing me the quotation, it is likely you either misunderstood me or confused me with someone else.

And what would be wrong with offending Cancellaras victories. Cancellara isnt my hero or anything. I usually root for others because i want someone else to have a chance at glory. I merely defend him in the argument Gilbert vs Canc (because logic prevails there) and in the argument whether he can peform at lbl which i think he can.

In other arguments, eg, Will canc top 10 a gt, or does Canc deserve to neutralise stages, i am very much against Cancellara.

Ps: Cancellara has been the best time trial specialist for 5-6 years now. Having only won 3 long TTs in a GT is not that impressive then.

Winning 4 world tts, and an olympic tt, all the while picking out big classics and monuments is.

And where does it say prologues dont count as tts? For someone capable of winning 50 k hilly tts, winning a flat 4k tt is very impressive, considering its a very different type of effort.

The only disappointing thing about Cancellara is imo his performance at the Tour(doing almost nothing except in the time trials)

You mean unlike Gilbert who rather than doing "almost nothing" at the Tour, does "absolutely nothing"

But dont forget Cancellara won stage 3 in 2007, Got Andy and Frank big time with ttt in 2009, and put Andy into contention with Contador with his awsome cobbled performance in stage 3 this year. Add to that domestiquing for Andy. Id say thats doing more than just tts. Also. Chavanel had the Tour of his life with 2 stages and 2 days in yellow. For Cancellara 2 stages and 6 days in yellow wasnt anything special.

 

[The Hitch]

look to what rebelin said after the end of the olimpics for example.

What did he say

I get it, if Cancellara loses he's out of form because no one can beat Cancellara in form... Oh please, cry me a river. If Cancellara can't hold up form multiple times a year than that's his problem. Stop using it as an excuse.

You're joking if you think Cancellara had a harder season than Gilbert this year. Stop using dumb excuses please.

Vino is a stage racer? Vino is also a hilly classics specialist. Duh.

Changes of Cancellara beating Gilbert in an uphill sprint is 0-100. Gilbert would always win. Now Cancellara is also the best sprinter of the two? Haha. I hope you're kidding. And why would Cancellara be smarter all of a sudden? I get it, you hate Belgian cyclists, get over it. Gilbert is practically unbeatable in small sprints. Hence why he beat Boonen at Paris-Tours.

I don't even think Cancellara has ever won a bunch sprint or small sprint except that stage in the Tour of 2007. He always loses in small sprints(both flat and uphill sprints)

Ps: Funny you mentioned Paolo Bettini in one of your earlier post. Paolo Bettini called Philippe Gilbert to be his successor. Not Cancellara.

Pistolero, i agree with you that in any sprint, uphill or flat Gilbert would win. Canc would need to drop Gilbert before that. In any sprinte Gilbert will always win.

But
1 C F fan, does on the other hand, make some good points which you ignore to focus on the few mistakes he might have made. For example, you said cancellara does nothing outside tts in the tour. CF fan disproved this. He did so very well, pointing out how crucial Cancellaras cobbles performance was to Andy, and also that Fabian takes the wind for Andy in flat stages.
You ignore this completely. If you make an argument and someone disproves it, a simple "yep you are right about this particular point" comes of very nicely.

2 Why would someone who thinks Canc is better than Gilbert necceseraly have to hate Belgian cyclists They might just be intelligent human beings

 

[El Pistolero]

Umm this is what you said



"All others were just prologues". A prologue is up to 8 k. Monaco 2009 was twice that. 4 times the 4k you suggest.





Please show me the incident you are talking about. Simply claiming that it occured does you no good. Without showing me the quotation, it is likely you either misunderstood me or confused me with someone else.

And what would be wrong with offending Cancellaras victories. Cancellara isnt my hero or anything. I usually root for others because i want someone else to have a chance at glory. I merely defend him in the argument Gilbert vs Canc (because logic prevails there) and in the argument whether he can peform at lbl which i think he can.

In other arguments, eg, Will canc top 10 a gt, or does Canc deserve to neutralise stages, i am very much against Cancellara.



Winning 4 world tts, and an olympic tt, all the while picking out big classics and monuments is.

And where does it say prologues dont count as tts? For someone capable of winning 50 k hilly tts, winning a flat 4k tt is very impressive, considering its a very different type of effort.


You mean unlike Gilbert who rather than doing "almost nothing" at the Tour, does "absolutely nothing"

But dont forget Cancellara won stage 3 in 2007, Got Andy and Frank big time with ttt in 2009, and put Andy into contention with Contador with his awsome cobbled performance in stage 3 this year. Add to that domestiquing for Andy. Id say thats doing more than just tts. Also. Chavanel had the Tour of his life with 2 stages and 2 days in yellow. For Cancellara 2 stages and 6 days in yellow wasnt anything special.

1) 16km is still not a long time trial. Sure, not a prologue, doesn't matter. It counts as a TT(a prologue), but it's not nearly as impressive as winning hilly stages that are 200km+ long. According to C&C it does.

2) It was in thread "who will win the 5 monuments first".

3) Logic doesn't prevail if you're using Beijing(got dropped on the climbs, came back on the flat. Won't happen at LBL, different profile.), Tirreno-Adriatoco(that was C&C) or TdS as an indicator for LBL as I already explained. Mendrisio does count.

4) Every classics specialist marks the big classics and the Worlds road race. Stop trying to make Cancellara look special because he does that. Every cyclist does it.

5) Cancellara started winning prologues before he started winning long time trials.

6) There are other Grand Tours than the Tour de France. Frank Schleck helped Andy more at the cobbles stage than Cancellara did. But cobbles are not likely to return anytime soon in the Tour. I almost never saw Cancellara dropping the hammer when the climbs started. I even saw Andy Schleck fetching his own water bottles. And yeah, he won that stage 3 years ago. Now do it again please, flat stages are boring enough. My post said that Cancellara almost does nothing in the Tour for him self. Someone like Cancellara doesn't need to be a domestique for a fool like Andy Schleck.

What has Chavanel have to do with any of this? He impressed me more than Cancellara this Tour.

 

[The Hitch]

2) It was in thread "who will win the 5 monuments first".

lol. Ok ill try to explain this as best as i can. If you want to make a point regarding what someone said, you have to show the quote and the source. If you are not going to show me the quote, with a link showing that i made it, as far as im concerned, it doesnt exist. Its no good telling me, "you said something along the lines of...." No.Show the quote or pretend it wasnt made.

Otherwise, i might as well just say, I hate Contador because he said "all English people are stupid"

If i cant prove that he said this, then for all intents and purposes, the comment doesnt exist.

3) Logic doesn't prevail if you're using Beijing(got dropped on the climbs, came back on the flat. Won't happen at LBL, different profile.), Tirreno-Adriatoco(that was C&C) or TdS as an indicator for LBL as I already explained. Mendrisio does count.

If you look at the post you are quoting, i didnt say a thing about the worlds, Olympics or LBL.

Every classics specialist marks the big classics and the Worlds road race. Stop trying to make Cancellara look special because he does that. Every cyclist does it.

Again, no idea what you are responding too. Maybe you quoted the wrong post?

Frank Schleck helped Andy more at the cobbles stage than Cancellara did. But cobbles are not likely to return anytime soon in the Tour

Who says El Pistoleros posts arent fun to read. Eh. Who says that? Cancellara killing himself for Andy doesnt count. Why? Get this. Because cobbles wont come up next year.

Genius

What has Chavanel have to do with any of this? He impressed me more than Cancellara this Tour.

Thats my point. Chavanel did less than Canc (2 stages and 2 days in yellow vs 2 stages and 5 days in yellow). And yet with Chavanel it was "WOW" and with Canc it was "meh".