Michael Rogers positive for clenbuterol

[frenchfry]

So you don't have an answer!

I can accept that Rodgers has doped in the past but why would he stuff up in the last few years of his career?

It's not as if he's riding for a GT contender is it?

But hey he's Australian and some of them aren't very bright so maybe that's the answer.

But then he did ride for Sky and they are the devil so this is payback.

Of course I don't have an answer.

But I do think it is totally useless to ask the question "why would he dope if..." a) he knew he would be tested, b) he is at the end of his career, c) he isn't a contender, d) he just survived a life threatening illness, e) he has a wife and children to think about, f) whatever other reason you wish to come up with.

Athletes dope, sometimes against all logic, always to increase their performance for whatever reason. After all, Rogers did win the race at which he tested positive.

I don't know if his positive was from ingesting clenbuterol or from contamination. We will probably never know, and in a perverse way the answer isn't really important unless it can be definitively proven one way or another. What is important now is what is done with this result.

 

[blackcat]

But hey he's Australian and some of them aren't very bright so maybe that's the answer.

But then he did ride for Sky and they are the devil so this is payback.

some?

I'd say "most".

 

[blackcat]

Of course I don't have an answer.

But I do think it is totally useless to ask the question "why would he dope if..." a) he knew he would be tested, b) he is at the end of his career, c) he isn't a contender, d) he just survived a life threatening illness, e) he has a wife and children to think about, f) whatever other reason you wish to come up with.

Athletes dope, sometimes against all logic, always to increase their performance for whatever reason. After all, Rogers did win the race at which he tested positive.

I don't know if his positive was from ingesting clenbuterol or from contamination. We will probably never know, and in a perverse way the answer isn't really important unless it can be definitively proven one way or another. What is important now is what is done with this result.

some just dope to look like a man
#penis_envy
#freud

 

[timmers]

Of course I don't have an answer.

But I do think it is totally useless to ask the question "why would he dope if..." a) he knew he would be tested, b) he is at the end of his career, c) he isn't a contender, d) he just survived a life threatening illness, e) he has a wife and children to think about, f) whatever other reason you wish to come up with.

Athletes dope, sometimes against all logic, always to increase their performance for whatever reason. After all, Rogers did win the race at which he tested positive.

I don't know if his positive was from ingesting clenbuterol or from contamination. We will probably never know, and in a perverse way the answer isn't really important unless it can be definitively proven one way or another. What is important now is what is done with this result.

Well most winners don't test positive so that is against the odds.

I am not defending Rodgers as I think he could have taken a different path earlier in his career but he apparently did not think that was an option, But to cast him as the devil like many in the clinic do is crap and and not fair.

However lets wait for the facts, yes the real ones not lies made up by the pig, to come out in the decision and then make our own judgements.

 

[SundayRider]

Well most winners don't test positive so that is against the odds.

I am not defending Rodgers as I think he could have taken a different path earlier in his career but he apparently did not think that was an option, But to cast him as the devil like many in the clinic do is crap and and not fair.

However lets wait for the facts, yes the real ones not lies made up by the pig, to come out in the decision and then make our own judgements.

No one dopes to finish last though.

 

[gillan1969]

So you don't have an answer!

I can accept that Rodgers has doped in the past but why would he stuff up in the last few years of his career?

It's not as if he's riding for a GT contender is it?

But hey he's Australian and some of them aren't very bright so maybe that's the answer.

But then he did ride for Sky and they are the devil so this is payback.

he didn't stuff up on purpose...

and re age...linford christe is evidence you can even 'stuff up' after your career is over....

 

[blackcat]

Well most winners don't test positive so that is against the odds.

I am not defending Rodgers as I think he could have taken a different path earlier in his career but he apparently did not think that was an option, But to cast him as the devil like many in the clinic do is crap and and not fair.

However lets wait for the facts, yes the real ones not lies made up by the pig, to come out in the decision and then make our own judgements.

you would not know his name if he took a different path. He might be racing national series races in Australia. Emphasis on "might"

 

[frenchfry]

Well most winners don't test positive so that is against the odds.

I am not defending Rodgers as I think he could have taken a different path earlier in his career but he apparently did not think that was an option, But to cast him as the devil like many in the clinic do is crap and and not fair.

However lets wait for the facts, yes the real ones not lies made up by the pig, to come out in the decision and then make our own judgements.

Most winners don't test positive because they employ talented doping "doctors", much as Rogers himself employed Ferrari.

In no way have I cast Rogers as the devil. I have only argued that small doses of clen don't necessarily mean contamination. I have also stated my opinion that we will probably never know the real facts - if indeed Rogers was doping he will never say, and if it was contamination this likely cannot be proven either. Difficult for those who like to live in a black and white world but there it is.

 

[crapna]

Ahhh, Michael you are too fat.

 

[coinneach]

No one dopes to finish last though.

But they do dope to finish

And, according to "Rough Ride", they dope if they think they will get away with it

 

[mikeoneill]

why didn't he eat organic?

 

[will10]

https://twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/414045495586086912

Race Radio ‏@TheRaceRadio 20 Dec
.@SSbike @TTworldchamp @dogsandcycling I understand the UCI told several teams that Clen would not be tested for.

 

[thehog]

https://twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/414045495586086912

Race Radio ‏@TheRaceRadio 20 Dec
.@SSbike @TTworldchamp @dogsandcycling I understand the UCI told several teams that Clen would not be tested for.

Just like Leinders is not Ferrari. With all due respect these tweets don't help anyone.

Why would the UCI suspend it's own testing for one race? In the Cookson era as well.

Besides Rogers was positive in Japan not China.

Or then again maybe the UCI told Rogers they wouldn't test so he doped with the a substance he knew he could get away with?

 

[veganrob]

Just like Leinders is not Ferrari. With all due respect these tweets don't help anyone.

Why would the UCI suspend it's own testing for one race? In the Cookson era as well.

Besides Rogers was positive in Japan not China.

Or then again maybe the UCI told Rogers they wouldn't test so he doped with the a substance he knew he could get away with?

The more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[Ney the Viking]

Just like Leinders is not Ferrari. With all due respect these tweets don't help anyone.

Why would the UCI suspend it's own testing for one race? In the Cookson era as well.

Besides Rogers was positive in Japan not China.

Or then again maybe the UCI told Rogers they wouldn't test so he doped with the a substance he knew he could get away with?

Erm ... UCI tell teams Clen won't be tested, then test the whole bunch and give the stupid a 2 year ban Only works once mind, but still interesting theory

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Erm ... UCI tell teams Clen won't be tested, then test the whole bunch and give the stupid a 2 year ban Only works once mind, but still interesting theory

Had crossed my mind, interesting to see it floated as a possibility.

Similar to the strategy of announcing testing for major (amateur) races a few days before the event and watching who withdraws from the race.

 

[BroDeal]

Do you have a link to that study? Also my other questions were not answered. How much meat is needed to be consumed and what is the concentration of clen needed in the meat to produce those positive results?


MI, Thanks for your reply.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=6124878

 

[soslow]

I think this has been mentioned before but in 2011, The German Sports University lab in Cologne -- accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency -- is warning athletes of the risks of accidental clenbuterol doping when traveling to China.

The lab carried out an investigation that found that 22 out of 28 travelers returning to Germany from China tested positive for low levels of clenbuterol.

That's not just a couple. That is nearly 80% of the travelers tested.

There is a test that can potentially determine if the clen came from doping or from eating contaminated meat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8924729

 

[Merckx index]

There is a test that can potentially determine if the clen came from doping or from eating contaminated meat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8924729

This is very interesting. I hadn’t heard of this. The rationale is explained in detail here.


Briefly, CB can exist in two enantiomers (+ and – forms), molecular structures that are identical, except that they are mirror images of each other. Normally, the two enantiomers are present in equal amounts, but when ingested, the (+) form is preferentially retained in tissues. Hence, the CB excreted in urine is preferentially enriched in the (-) form.

When CB is ingested from contaminated meat, however, it will preferentially contain the (+) form, since this is the form that is preferentially taken up by tissues. Thus when it is excreted in urine, the proportion of the (-) form is reduced.

There is a problem, though. This test in principle will only work if the CB in meat comes from livestock that are slaughtered several days after the last dosing of CB. If they are given CB right up to the time of slaughter, the CB in their system does not have time to equilibrate, and is essentially an equal proportion of enantiomers, just as with the drug as it’s purchased.

So to summarize:

-/+ < 1 – indicates CB came from contaminated meat
-/+ > 1 – indicates CB came from doping, or from meat from animals dosed up to slaughter.

In countries where meat inspection is lax, I'd guess that there is a lot of dosing of cattle right up to slaughter. however, this will tend to result in higher levels of CB in the meat, and in anyone eating the meat. So athletes testing for relatively low levels of CB might be more likely to have eaten meat (if that is the source) from livestock where dosing was stopped several days prior to slaughter. In this case, the test should show the reduced -/+ ratio that is inconsistent with the athlete doping.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I would have thought dosing animals with CB right up to slaughter would have been inefficient? ie if you dose today and slaughter tomorrow, there's little to no effect.

Is the farmer is doing the dosing, and the purchaser shipping to the abbatoir?

Which raises an obvious question - what is the slaughtering / butchering process in China, on average? Farmer? Abbatoir? Butcher? Lag between purchase & slaughtering?

Any studies on CB half life in butchered (dead) meat?

 

[Merckx index]

I would have thought dosing animals with CB right up to slaughter would have been inefficient? ie if you dose today and slaughter tomorrow, there's little to no effect.

When CB is dosed into the animal, it equilibrates throughout its system--some in blood, some in various tissues, including muscles. If you dose regularly, every day or more frequently, the level in the muscles soon reaches a plateau, which the constant dosing simply maintains. As soon as you stop dosing, the CB in the muscles starts coming out, so it loses its effect there. Whereas if you continue doping, you maintain the level in the muscle. So it isn't so much that the latest dose goes into the muscles as it maintains the plateau, prevents what is already in the muscles from leaking out.

It may also be that farmers aren't sure ahead of time when they will slaughter. The decision might be made when the animal reaches a certain weight, and not being sure of when this will happen, they don't want to stop dosing prematurely. Or maybe they have to make arrangements with other people doing the slaughter, and availability is not known well in advance. I'm speculating here, but I think this is possible.

Any studies on CB half life in butchered (dead) meat?

I linked some studies on this when we were discussing the Contador case. As I recall, it's pretty stable if the meat is refrigerated.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thanks, MI.

This is McQuaid "growing" cycling into "new markets" where Hein's media company gets broadcast rights, isn't it?

Phat blackmailed the teams to race it - they were not keen. Cyclists were not keen due to pollution concerns.

There's all the human rights issues as well.

Now the Clen contamination possibility.

What a fuster cluck.

 

[veganrob]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=6124878

Great, Thanks for that BroDeal. I never had any doubt that that meat supply is tainted in China. What I am sceptical about is that professional athletes, especially one with the experience and rank of Rogers, having been to China several times, with warning after warning from WADA and I expect the team also, would not be able to find a food supply that is not contaminated. The teams should be taking extra precautions in this situation.
The travelers in the example were not concerned or trying to avoid clen tainted meat. I didn't get that from the article anyway.
This may not be a good example, but how many clen positives were there for the Olympics in China? Those athletes are not under such strict supervision as recent ProTour teams.

 

[neineinei]

https://twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/414045495586086912

Race Radio ‏@TheRaceRadio 20 Dec
.@SSbike @TTworldchamp @dogsandcycling I understand the UCI told several teams that Clen would not be tested for.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/12/news/uci-says-all-samples-checked-for-clenbuterol_311700

On Friday, UCI officials said that is not the case.

“All samples are analyzed for clenbuterol, in any WADA lab. It’s a routine analysis,” a UCI official said via email. “That means all samples from the Tour of Beijing were analyzed for clenbuterol. Same for Japan.”

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Great, Thanks for that BroDeal. I never had any doubt that that meat supply is tainted in China. What I am sceptical about is that professional athletes, especially one with the experience and rank of Rogers, having been to China several times, with warning after warning from WADA and I expect the team also, would not be able to find a food supply that is not contaminated. The teams should be taking extra precautions in this situation.

I find it curious the documented lengths that cyclists go to, as outlined in various autobiographies, to dope. Getting logistics and timing right for blood withdrawal, processing, storage and reinfusion for key races. Fine-tuning doping regimes, acquiring, storing and injecting / consuming the various PEDs available, to maximise training benefits and racing outcomes.

The boasting by various teams of dedicated chefs at premier races.

Yet when it comes to acquiring food in China that will help avoid testing positive for banned substances, apparently, this is too difficult.

It boggles the mind.