Michael Rogers positive for clenbuterol

[Franklin]

Maybe there should be a adendum to the anti doping policy for Rogers. They could call it the Stupid Clause.

Again, what's up with this shooting your wad before the details and circumstances are known? Don't you guys remember the ten years of egg on the face because the Lance case could not be closed? We see the same wth Sky and now you guys want someones scalp before we know what happened?

I thought this was an anti-doping crowd, but it seems Lance has changed it into a personal things for a lot of you guys.

 

[veganrob]

Again, what's up with this shooting your wad before the details and circumstances are known? Don't you guys remember the ten years of egg on the face because the Lance case could not be closed? We see the same wth Sky and now you guys want someones scalp before we know what happened?

I thought this was an anti-doping crowd, but it seems Lance has changed it into a personal things for a lot of you guys.

He is a professional athlete, well aware of what the dangers are of eating meat in China. He has been around a long time. There are so many options of food. There should be no escuse for his negligence if that is indeed what it is.
He is either guilty of doping or guilty of being stupid.
We will never know for certain what happened with Rogers because he is going to claim innocense. Of course.
But he is still guilty.

 

[ebandit]

errr............no!

Amazing and abhorrent that you even contemplate punishing someone just because you want it so.

errr...no! benny is saying dodger should be sanctioned because he was found with clen in his system

the fact that benny would be glad that dodger was sanctioned is secondary

do you really think that if many of the general population were likely to have clen in their system that it would still be on the WADA list with No threshold?

ok there is more risk in china but again it is the athletes responsibility to avoid contamination

Mark L

 

[DirtyWorks]

1. Contamination is a very plausible explanation. Even though the clinic seems to love to deny this, this is a sad truth of current state of meat.

There is no "sad state of meat" in the EU. EU meat supply standards are the best in the world. The EU is not China.

Still waiting for others to test positive from China.

 

[Benotti69]

<snipped>

You on the Sherry.

Due process and UCI, you having a laugh..........

 

[Merckx index]

Oh nonsense, the UCI had little to do at that stage. There are two reasons:

1. Contamination is a very plausible explanation. Even though the clinic seems to love to deny this, this is a sad truth of current state of meat.

In some places, like China and Mexico, yes. Not in Spain.

2. As far as I understand; supplements would have landed him a ban anyway.

But had he used the supplement defense at the outset, and backed it up with evidence, the ban might have been less, maybe a year. In which case he either would have been riding the TDF in 2012, or would have kept his 2011 Giro title.

As far as whether Rogers should be banned even if it’s established it was meat, if UCI wants to do that, they need to warn riders very clearly ahead of time of the rules. They have hinted at this before, but AFAIK they have not explicitly amended the rules, so that eating contaminated meat is in the same class as, e.g., ingesting a contaminated supplement.

I'm pretty sure that right now, there is nothing in the rules that prevents a rider from arguing contaminated meat, and if he can prove it, getting off completely. This was discussed here during the Contador case, the relevant clause being no significant fault. If UCI were to amend it, then a rider might prove the meat was contaminated and still get a ban, maybe a year.

 

[darwin553]

Amazing that you think a doper should get away with doping and go unpunished. Rogers is a doper who worked and may still be working with Ferrari. He deserves a ban for that alone!

There goes Cadel too

 

[darwin553]

Amazing and abhorrent that you even contemplate punishing someone just because you want it so.

Personal justice= lynch mob mentality.
Becauser you know exactly as I do that Rogers is not on trial here for Ferraru, so all your stammering and posturing here is absolutely not relevant to this case.

Agree. I think Benotti and a few others in this thread could do with getting out of The Clinic and getting some fresh air.

 

[darwin553]

He is a professional athlete, well aware of what the dangers are of eating meat in China. He has been around a long time. There are so many options of food. There should be no escuse for his negligence if that is indeed what it is.
He is either guilty of doping or guilty of being stupid.
We will never know for certain what happened with Rogers because he is going to claim innocense. Of course.
But he is still guilty.

Although don't you agree that you would think, as many have contended the depths and lengths that Rogers has gone to in concealing his doping, that it doesn't seem to follow he did in fact eat meat knowing the risks he would test positive due to contamination?

It all seems to amateurish for my liking for someone whose meant to be this professional doper and indeed perhaps even suggests the opposite in that in fact he has been clean his whole life if he does prove that the positive came from eating contaminated meat.

 

[ebandit]

wish

There goes Cadel too

we can ALL wish..............after ALL rogers has been out dodgered

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

There goes Cadel too

Cadel was never clean.

Agree. I think Benotti and a few others in this thread could do with getting out of The Clinic and getting some fresh air.

I think i and a few others bring some fresh air into The Clinic, too many souls want to think things are getting better in cycling because JV, Brailsford et al are saying it, but that is not truth, yet and till things improve i will continue to blow a chill draught in here to blow the cobwebs away

 

[ChrisE]

...
But the point your omitting is that if it was unintentionally ingested, that shouldnt be too hard to prove.
Is Rogers taking the logical steps to prove his innocence, such as having his diner table colleagues tested for clen?
Ovtcharov did that immediately and was exonerated.

Assuming the others he ate with, if any exist, ate the same meat. Let's find these potentially mythical dinner partners and test them 3 months after the positive.

 

[blackcat]

Cadel was never clean.

this

with Dr Michele

 

[zigmeister]

I don't know guys, maybe some of these riders are genius here on the doping front.

The new UCI leadership has taken over. They are threatening "Truth and Reconciliation", therefore, these guys figure, hey, let's dope. If we get caught, we will just go to the T&R council, tell our little story, get 6 months at most...away we go back to cycling!!

Very clever.

 

[sniper]

Assuming the others he ate with, if any exist, ate the same meat. Let's find these potentially mythical dinner partners and test them 3 months after the positive.

Well, yes, Ovcharov did it and it got him off the hook.
Provided Rogers was notified of his positive in time, then he should be able to have his dining mates tested. If his mates come out negative, it proves nothing either way. If the others come out positive like him, it proves the tainted meat story.
edit: and of course he may have tried this already, we might simply not know about it.

And what mythical dining partners are you talking about? You really think rogers went out to eat all by himself in the middle of bejing?
would be kind a odd, wouldn't it? Cycling is a team sport.

anyway, more difficult than finding dinner partners will be to find a piece of tainted meat, or evidence thereof.

Rogers'll have to explain why he went to an uncertified restaurant, for starters.
But as I said already, I think chances are good he'll walk.

 

[Franklin]

In some places, like China and Mexico, yes. Not in Spain.

Sorry, Clen is a problem in Europe. Worse, clen is just a tiny tip of the problem with our food. And yeah, not just our poor evil sothran countries, its a problem in the benelux as well.

But had he used the supplement defense at the outset, and backed it up with evidence, the ban might have been less, maybe a year. In which case he either would have been riding the TDF in 2012, or would have kept his 2011 Giro title.

Or he really hadn't used it in his program and it was a contamination. Amazing to consider huh... a dosis so low it could be contamination. A contamination which does happen in Europe and a time of use as doping that would not make sense. But hell no. We are absolutely convinced that Alberto who is Teflon is the biggest fool around and uses a drug with such a marker

As far as whether Rogers should be banned even if it’s established it was meat, if UCI wants to do that, they need to warn riders very clearly ahead of time of the rules. They have hinted at this before, but AFAIK they have not explicitly amended the rules, so that eating contaminated meat is in the same class as, e.g., ingesting a contaminated supplement.

I'm pretty sure that right now, there is nothing in the rules that prevents a rider from arguing contaminated meat, and if he can prove it, getting off completely. This was discussed here during the Contador case, the relevant clause being no significant fault. If UCI were to amend it, then a rider might prove the meat was contaminated and still get a ban, maybe a year.

if it's meat he walks. If he doesn't it's a horrible kind of justice.

 

[Franklin]

You on the Sherry.

Due process and UCI, you having a laugh..........

I know man, how dare I root for proper justice. Indeed I should just go with you and go for every punishment I can get even if he didn't do it. It's just so gratifying even if it's not real justice. Of course if it would happen to you or a loved one it would be so different and an evil oppresive government, but hey, it's just cyclists, so they should have no protection from abusive legislation whatsoever.

Me and my sherry at kleast have a strong moral compass. Seems I have less bile in my stomach deciding where I stand

 

[Franklin]

Cadel was never clean.

Yeah, we know for 100% sure. Really, not a glimmer of doubt. We do not need stinking real evidence.

I think i and a few others bring some fresh air into The Clinic, too many souls want to think things are getting better in cycling because JV, Brailsford et al are saying it, but that is not truth, yet and till things improve i will continue to blow a chill draught in here to blow the cobwebs away

Odd, because I'm quite critical of Sky. Seems your classification on a broad sweep immediately falls apart.

Also, this will kinda be shocking to you. But the critical people like Bigboat, Race Radio, Dr. Maserati are a lot less rigid and a lot more convincing ads they bring facts and arguments to the table without throwing out how due process should work. Your idea that saying Cadel and Rodgers doped is fresh is also a bit pompous considering Freiburg and Ferrari have been discussed for years now. Sorry. Nothing new there.

Hint: You are not a minority here railing against evil silly unbelievers. There are a lot of critical people here who look at the facts and argue about these. But even though I'm personaly 99.99% convinced we have not yet seen a clean TdF winner... I do not think of myself to be so infallible that this is enough to punish at will. I'm glad I do not have that power.

 

[Franklin]

There is no "sad state of meat" in the EU. EU meat supply standards are the best in the world.

That's funny. Sad, but funny. Let me throw in a 2013 article with a test of 55 samples of a certain EC country (and which thus can find the way into all of our meatballs).

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/download/1522/1531

55 meat samples were tested applying the validated screening method. Twenty one of them were considered to be potentially positive.

In 2009 (hey that's a year before the AC problems...) there's reporting of issues in Portugal. But at least that's not cycling and the monetary flow involved is much smaller, so we can be absolutely sure that one year later meat in Europe was cleaner than clean. Except indeed there's a lot more cash going around in meat than in our silly sport, that scandals are a regular occurence and that the impact on the economy of ailing economies (and thus chances of closing their eyes) is much bigger.

And let's forget that Clenbuterol is indeed allowed for certain bovine problems. But hey, it's impossible a rider gets a contamination here in Europe.

And the funny part about this is that people we begrudge me for throwing up these cases that show that even our glorious EC is not perfect. Strange enough we know the UCI and IOC are corrupt, but if it's the EC and Clenbuterol we are convinced it's just ironclad safe.

And to drive this one down with the sledgehammer: There's not a zero tolerance on Clenbuterol in meat:

There are EU Maximum Residue Limits listed for clenbuterol in bovine tissues (muscle: 0.1μg/kg; 0.5μg/kg for both liver and kidney) under Commission Regulation (EU) 37/2010.

Imagine that... how does this all add up? Why are there minimal levels if there is no way at all that clen enters the European bovine foodcycle?

I appologize for being so rude to break the bubble, But everyone who believes the UCI is bad and then thinks that somehow the state of European food is ay-okay is just blinkered.

 

[DirtyWorks]

That's funny. Sad, but funny. Let me throw in a 2013 article with a test of 55 samples (including German meat).

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/download/1522/1531

Did you bother to read your own link? That research was specific to Macedonian suppliers, tested in Macedonia. Macedonia is not an EU member.

Again, the EU meat supply system is excellent.

But hey, it's impossible a rider gets a contamination here in Europe.

Seems like it given the rare number of Clen positives in cycling. Rogers' excuse is bad. We'd see many other positives if it was something related to racing in China. Period.

 

[ChrisE]

Well, yes, Ovcharov did it and it got him off the hook.
Provided Rogers was notified of his positive in time, then he should be able to have his dining mates tested. If his mates come out negative, it proves nothing either way. If the others come out positive like him, it proves the tainted meat story.
edit: and of course he may have tried this already, we might simply not know about it.

And what mythical dining partners are you talking about? You really think rogers went out to eat all by himself in the middle of bejing?
would be kind a odd, wouldn't it? Cycling is a team sport.

anyway, more difficult than finding dinner partners will be to find a piece of tainted meat, or evidence thereof.

Rogers'll have to explain why he went to an uncertified restaurant, for starters.
But as I said already, I think chances are good he'll walk.

I don't know the circumstances of Ovcharov's positive or how he fought it, and besides that is irrelevant from my POV.

Depending on having dinner partners that ate the same thing as you tested to prove your innocent is far fetched. The 'mythical' means the assumption that they even exist for that instance, under that circumstance. I have flown over 250k miles around the world on business and have eaten many times by myself, and many times with coworkers that eat other things than me. To say riders eat en mass the exact same things, or must eat that way 'just in case', is absurd.

Then, you bring into the whole issue of testing others out of protocol and perhaps bringing on some type of AAF due to the amount of clen in their body, which opens up a whole other can of worms that may need to be contested by the accused. If I was one of those dinner partners and was asked to submit something outside of formal protocol, I would tell my buddy to go **** himself.

This is stupid, and it could all be fixed by a threshold. Clen is possible to ingest accidentally. By putting so much onus on the accused with little amounts in their body to prove it was an accident by using absurd legal gymnastics as you describe, flies in the face of what it engrained in me. The onus should be on the governing body to prove illegality, instead of putting it on the rider whose career and income are in the balance. There are alot of things wrong with the USA, but that is the American way and I wouldn't trade it for anything. You put the onus on the governing body by taking the possibility of accidental ingestion out of the equation with a threshold. YMMV.

 

[Merckx index]

That's funny. Sad, but funny. Let me throw in a 2013 article with a test of 55 samples of a certain EC country (and which thus can find the way into all of our meatballs).

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/download/1522/1531

1) I said CB contamination was not a problem in Spain. This study was carried out in Greece. There are no studies I’m aware of, other than a very rare episode, that indicate CB contamination is a problem anywhere in northern Europe or in most southern countries.

2) The authors note that the levels of contamination found were much lower than those found in studies in Mexico or China, e.g. The highest level of contamination, found in just one of the 55 samples, was slightly over 1 ug/kg. A typical serving of this meat of 200 g would result in an ingestion of about 200 ng. From studies we have discussed here before, about 40 ng of this would be excreted in the urine during the following three days. About 4 l of urine is passed during this period, so the average concentration in urine would be about 10 pg/ml, which is below the detectability limit of all but the most sensitive methods (and even with those methods, the error is considerable). Peak level would be somewhat higher, but still difficult to detect.

3) The authors attempted to confirm their results using GC-MS. Only one of the twenty-one samples that tested above the inspection limit of 0.1 ug/kg tested positive for CB. I find it very curious the authors don’t comment on this, as they note that while the antibody test they used to identify these twenty-one samples is very sensitive, it cross-reacts with other substances, and in fact, has been reported to result in a high number of false positives. The authors basically confirmed this, casting doubt on their entire study, but they never address this at all.

There are EU Maximum Residue Limits listed for clenbuterol in bovine tissues (muscle: 0.1μg/kg; 0.5μg/kg for both liver and kidney) under Commission Regulation (EU) 37/2010.

Imagine that... how does this all add up? Why are there minimal levels if there is no way at all that clen enters the European bovine foodcycle?

As was discussed at great length here during the Contador case, athletes eating meat at these maximum levels will not test positive.

It has been said that probably every dollar bill in circulation has traces of cocaine on it, but I haven't heard of anyone being busted for that.

This is stupid, and it could all be fixed by a threshold.

We discussed this before, too. A threshold does not solve the problem for CB, or any other drug, because in the absence of knowing when the drug entered the body, we can't estimate what level should be present. If you dope with a large amount of CB, and don't get tested for a week or more later, you will have barely detectable levels.

I think an argument for a very low threshold can be made, but it has to be done acknowledging that this will result in some false negatives. As I said before, the enantiomer test may be the best way to determine if CB comes from contaminated meat.

 

[Franklin]

Did you bother to read your own link? That research was specific to Macedonian suppliers, tested in Macedonia. Macedonia is not an EU member.

Again, the EU meat supply system is excellent.

I read it But considering candidate states are free to import and export a lot of stuff good luck with that. Alas, meat is on the list. Yeah, shocker isn't it? As a sidenote, any trust in Botswanian or Namibian meat? Or how about Canadian meat when we know they have Clen issues in their horsemeat right now?

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=P-2013-002460&language=EN

Oh seems that ended up in the EC.....

Want to look into how this goes for composite foods? I sure can buy chinese beef broth, but surely that's being monitored by a special EC representative who check every batch that goes through that Huang Zhou factory.

Seems like it given the rare number of Clen positives in cycling. Rogers' excuse is bad. We'd see many other positives if it was something related to racing in China. Period.

Yes, odd isnt it? Why no American and Canadian positives when those countries are still filled with Clen scandals? Why just a few soccer players and three cyclists. We know 100% sure it's a big problem in Candain meat. We know the EU blocked American meat due to Clen.

Perhaps something in the testing?

But really now. Can we just bury the notion that contamination in Europe is a fairytale?

 

[ChrisE]

We discussed this before, too. A threshold does not solve the problem for CB, or any other drug, because in the absence of knowing when the drug entered the body, we can't estimate what level should be present. If you dope with a large amount of CB, and don't get tested for a week or more later, you will have barely detectable levels.

I think an argument for a very low threshold can be made, but it has to be done acknowledging that this will result in some false negatives. As I said before, the enantiomer test may be the best way to determine if CB comes from contaminated meat.

I agree, and I stated this on the strict liability thread. Some guilty people may get away, but IMO that is a small price to pay for not 'catching' somebody innocent.

 

[Merckx index]

I read it But considering candidate states are free to import and export a lot of stuff good luck with that.

You do understand that imported meat is inspected, right?

Or how about Canadian meat when we know they have Clen issues in their horsemeat right now?

Thanks for that heads up. I’ll be sure to advise all my friends to cut down on the horsemeat in their diet.

Some people do eat it in Europe, but my understanding is that it is mostly the older generation, not cyclists. And I think if a cyclist actually ordered horse meat in a restaurant, he would remember that if a positive suddenly emerged.

Want to look into how this goes for composite foods? I sure can buy chinese beef broth, but surely that's being monitored by a special EC representative who check every batch that goes through that Huang Zhou factory.

What athlete eats canned meat in anywhere near the quantities he would eat fresh meat?

Yes, odd isnt it? Why no American and Canadian positives when those countries are still filled with Clen scandals?

Like doping race horses? Some scandal.

We know the EU blocked American meat due to Clen.

Again, I think you’re talking about horse meat. If beef was blocked, it’s because standards for some growth substances are different in the U.S., but not CB. And the fact that the meat was blocked undercuts your argument that Euro meat is contaminated. Same with the horse meat.

If your point is that there are lots of synthetic substances potentially dangerous to health in the American and Euro food supply, as well as in air and water, you won't get an argument from me. (See my point about DEHP, below). But there is no evidence that there is a significant risk of testing positive for CB.

Some guilty people may get away, but IMO that is a small price to pay for not 'catching' somebody innocent.

A couple of years ago, in the wake of the Contador decision, WADA considered instituting a threshold for CB, and decided not to. Why not? Because, as I noted, there is no level so low that it can't indicate doping, nor any level so high it can't indicate contamination. In fact, I don't think any study exists that challenges the assertion that there is no correlation between level of CB in the body and the origin of the drug. IOW, there might not be any level at which you would get significant separation between those who doped and those who ate contaminated meat.

The one thing that could be a game-changer is evidence that everyone has low levels of CB in their body. We already know this is the case for some other synthetic substances, e.g., DEHP, the plasticizer that Contador allegedly tested positive for. Studies of thousands of individuals have shown that everyone has some residues of this in the urine. Apparently we all take it in chronically--in water bottles, shrink wrap, etc.--and maintain a plateau level in our bodies. As the world population grows, and pollution increases, it's possible that we could all become chronically dosed with CB as well. Some studies, which I linked during the Contador case, suggest that CB may be found in some rivers.

If this were the case, then CB would have to become a threshold substance, and very careful studies would have to be carried out to determine levels significantly above ambient amounts. There would still be the problem of false negatives, but arguments based on them would lose their force.