Moderators

[Francois the Postman]

Again, nothing was stopping anyone speaking up.

I think we all broadly agree that it isn't a male or female issue, but this very statement is where there might be some actual disagreement Dr. In an ideal world and theoretically, no, I agree. But especially when it comes to this more sensitive subject, I bet that for many a female, a predominantly male environment is not the most inviting environment to stick your neck out in over "rape". There is a very reasonable angle that "aggression, even perceived or feared verbal aggression" actually does/could-well stop female voices from adding their voice to the debate. This thread in particular isn't always a calm and reflective space either. Susan inviting "them" specifically to contribute regardless isn't exactly a cardinal sin, is it? Although, I agree, and I suspect she does at well, placing men so firmly on one side of that particular fence wasn't appropriate either.

 

[usedtobefast]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think we all broadly agree that it isn't a male or female issue, but this very statement is where there might be some actual disagreement Dr. In an ideal world and theoretically, no, I agree. But especially when it comes to this more sensitive subject, I bet that for many a female, a predominantly male environment is not the most inviting environment to stick your neck out in over "rape". There is a very reasonable angle that "aggression, even perceived or feared verbal aggression" actually does/could-well stop female voices from adding their voice to the debate. This thread in particular isn't always a calm and reflective space either. Susan inviting "them" specifically to contribute regardless isn't exactly a cardinal sin, is it? Although, I agree, and I suspect she does at well, placing men so firmly on one side of that particular fence wasn't appropriate either.

I will try and be as clear as possible - I broadly agree with all views expressed even if at first they appear opposed, or maybe it is better to say I see merit in all sides.
But the validity of the term being discussed along gender lines was regrettable - nothing more, no biggie - it just added an element that was unnecessary. (Hope that explains it).


I would actually be horrified if any woman felt that they could not discuss any topic within the various forums.

 

[Boeing]

all this moral hogwash with no basis but a mods personal laundry list of likes and dis likes yet micromanagement itself is perversion of management

 

[Martin318is]

all this moral hogwash with no basis but a mods personal laundry list of likes and dis likes yet micromanagement itself is perversion of management

That post shows that you have entirely misunderstood - or just not read - the last few days worth of posts.

I am continually dumbfounded by people's automatic attribution of all actions by moderators (or worse CN itself) to one particular mod ( who is usually claimed to be Susan). It is a long LONG time since one moderator has made a ruling of that type without agreement of the other mods and we also regularly discuss such rulings with Dan. For instance, yes the edit of Krebs' post was done by Susan - because she was online at the time - but it was ORDERED by Dan. If you look at the conversation above, you will see that more than one moderator was in the conversation and that we said we would investigate and discuss before doing anything.

 

[Race Radio]

really, we should keep the prison rape discussion where it belongs.....in the Armstrong thread

 

[BroDeal]

really, we should keep the prison rape discussion where it belongs.....in the Armstrong thread

But they are not complaining about prison rape. They are complaining about people saying something like, "Whoa, dude, our team was totally raped."

 

[Martin318is]

Clearly as we see above - it is possible to have a sensible debate around the term itself and how it affects people, etc but as we see from the references to the LA thread, it is also a focal point for low taste humour. The one that kicked all this off though is a usage of the word as a descriptor for one rider doing something to another.

Any ruling on the topic is going to be difficult and it is going to be "not far enough" for some people and "silly" for others.

Its entirely possible that CN may decide to go all the way in one direction to make the objective evaluation of potential breaches easier. I would expect that this is a LOT more likely to happen if people react to the debate in a non-constructive manner. It is simpler for CN to end the discussion by making a very black and white ruling and ignoring one side of the discussion.

If however, you bear with us for a little while, hopefully something sensible will be reached.

 

[BroDeal]

I can't wait for some tard to go bongo bongo when I write about getting nazi about my diet for the last eight weeks before an endurance event.

Heck, what about the Soup Nazi? Surely such word usage is an insul to jews and to soup chefs. Ban it.

 

[Spare Tyre]

rape has to do with power, not sex.

as there are countless, offensive posts pointing towards LA (or other) bending behind bars, in the shower... distasteful all, and i choose to ignore as the ignorance of the posters is not worth reporting any more.

that Susan asked for female opinions was respectful. we are a minority (to put it mildly) and i do think we add to the flavour of the forum... too much testosterone gets f***ing boring and juvenile.

Props for this.

 

[Spare Tyre]

That angle was raised behind the scenes too, that that split isn't along gender lines. Saying that, in reality women are far more likely to fall victim to this, or know someone who has been through that hell, so I would be amazed if a more trivial use of the word rape -slang only in some circles-, didn't evoke, on the whole, stronger reactions in women than men.

And props for this.

 

[Spare Tyre]

I find the use of the word rape in this context to be abhorrent and offensive towards anyone (man or woman) who has ever been sexually assaulted.

And props for this.

 

[Boeing]

That post shows that you have entirely misunderstood - or just not read - the last few days worth of posts.

I am continually dumbfounded by people's automatic attribution of all actions by moderators (or worse CN itself) to one particular mod ( who is usually claimed to be Susan). It is a long LONG time since one moderator has made a ruling of that type without agreement of the other mods and we also regularly discuss such rulings with Dan. For instance, yes the edit of Krebs' post was done by Susan - because she was online at the time - but it was ORDERED by Dan. If you look at the conversation above, you will see that more than one moderator was in the conversation and that we said we would investigate and discuss before doing anything.

point taken

 

[Boeing]

That post shows that you have entirely misunderstood - or just not read - the last few days worth of posts.

I am continually dumbfounded by people's automatic attribution of all actions by moderators (or worse CN itself) to one particular mod ( who is usually claimed to be Susan). It is a long LONG time since one moderator has made a ruling of that type without agreement of the other mods and we also regularly discuss such rulings with Dan. For instance, yes the edit of Krebs' post was done by Susan - because she was online at the time - but it was ORDERED by Dan. If you look at the conversation above, you will see that more than one moderator was in the conversation and that we said we would investigate and discuss before doing anything.

point taken however I maintain that there is a lack of objectivity at times.

you can not argue against; that some mods tend to do more personality policing and moral governing than they do maintaining CN protocal

I suggest that you propose the same restraint and reflection to your peers as you do in your approach to this game, which is quite dignified and objective IMHO

I have read it and if some arent reacting to personalities they are reacting to so called PM complaints. The mysterious 3rd party cop out

Thank you for your concern

This is my last take on the subject

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

And props for this.

Rape is not something to joke about or parody.

you are of course right.

I'm not sure if I have ever said it, but if I have apologies to any offended.

Anyway, was this why boomcie was banned?

 

[Maxiton]

I haven't seen anyone (male or female) defend that word.

In fact there is absolutely no need for that word to be used in any way to describe anything related to a bike race.

This.

rape has to do with power, not sex.

as there are countless, offensive posts pointing towards LA (or other) bending behind bars, in the shower... distasteful all, and i choose to ignore as the ignorance of the posters is not worth reporting any more.

that Susan asked for female opinions was respectful. we are a minority (to put it mildly) and i do think we add to the flavour of the forum... too much testosterone gets f***ing boring and juvenile.

Also this.

just to clear the air. prison rape is very real possibility
to the nearly 2.3 million inmates currently incarcerated in prisons and jails in the United States suggests that raped inmates number 43,800.

Perhaps the media has help to desensitize people
Prison rape has become a staple of comedy or drama in films and television. Films such as Office Space, Half Baked, and Let's Go to Prison have used it for comedic purposes, while prison drama Oz contained multiple scenes of rape. Kurt Vonnegut's novel Breakfast of Champions features a character, Wayne Hoobler, whose prison experience consisted of sexual encounters with other inmates. <snip>

really, we should keep the prison rape discussion where it belongs.....in the Armstrong thread

I too find all the gleeful talk and chortling about prison rape to be highly offensive. It's probably the main reason I don't participate in the Clinic anymore. Clearly, the people doing it don't realize how just badly it reflects on them and on the cause they profess. It makes Armstrong look good by comparison, and that's quite an accomplishment. It also reflects very poorly on CN because it's tolerated here. I'd be far more concerned about that, for lots of reasons, than about some stray "zombie Jesus" post that one person takes offense to in an obscure thread few people even read.

As for other uses of "rape" - I mean, must we? It doesn't sound macho, it just sounds stupid. Can't we get along without that?

I'm not sure the answer is an official prohibition of the word, but it would make more sense for the software to asterisk that word than, say, the country of Pakistan.

Which reminds me. There must be at least one fundamentalist Moslem that reads this site. If we allow one religious figure to be discussed in a provocative way, it's only a matter of time until another religious figure is, also. Everybody see where I'm going with this? And just ask the Danish newspapers how that worked out for them.

So, as much as it pains me to say it, the "no religious humor in the Chaos thread" rule seems like a sensible one. And, really, we should want to encourage all fans of cycling and not offend even one, just so long as they don't offend us. (I still maintain, however, that it makes sense to avoid places where you think you might get offended - that's why you don't see me in the "prison rape" circles, or the politics thread.)

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not sure the answer is an official prohibition of the word, but it would make more sense for the software to asterisk that word than...

"By 2050—earlier, probably—all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron—they'll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

 

[Martin318is]

I'm not sure the answer is an official prohibition of the word, but it would make more sense for the software to asterisk that word than, say, the country of Pakistan.

The Pakistan issue shows how much difficulty there is in all this. Clearly there is something wrong with the software when part of the name of a country is edited. Then of course, the word Paki itself appears innocent in a lot of countries (or so its said) whereas in a number of countries it is apparently not far above the "N" word as a racial slur.

with regard to the rape word itself, I was trying to say earlier that it is an even trickier case. Firstly it is a valid word and there is slight potential for it to appear in discussions (for instance an athlete is acused). There would on the surface be nothing offensive about the word in that context. However in the context of the prison - based joking, filtering out the word has little impact as there are numerous ways to get the same point across without even using the word itself. In fact many of the references that people have complained about do not actually use the word 'rape'. The complaint is more about the description of the act.

Put it this way, Its not going to get solved before this weekend. and there is not going to be a knee-jerk reaction from CN (that I know about, yet).

 

[Maxiton]

"By 2050—earlier, probably—all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron—they'll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

OMG, dude, you just raped my whole point. Not.

 

[Maxiton]

The Pakistan issue shows how much difficulty there is in all this. Clearly there is something wrong with the software when part of the name of a country is edited. Then of course, the word Paki itself appears innocent in a lot of countries (or so its said) whereas in a number of countries it is apparently not far above the "N" word as a racial slur.

with regard to the rape word itself, I was trying to say earlier that it is an even trickier case. Firstly it is a valid word and there is slight potential for it to appear in discussions (for instance an athlete is acused). There would on the surface be nothing offensive about the word in that context. However in the context of the prison - based joking, filtering out the word has little impact as there are numerous ways to get the same point across without even using the word itself. In fact many of the references that people have complained about do not actually use the word 'rape'. The complaint is more about the description of the act.

Put it this way, Its not going to get solved before this weekend. and there is not going to be a knee-jerk reaction from CN (that I know about, yet).

Thanks, Martin. I'm not sure it needs to be solved, just discussed. Personally, I'm not one for a lot of prohibitions, and I think most people probably agree with me there. I don't think the word itself should be filtered, or posts containing it deleted. (But I do think overt celebrations of prison rape should be deleted, just like any other celebration of overt violence - same thing.)

EDIT: Apparently not everyone agrees with me .

 

[Nick777]

Sure you can. It's common slang.

Not around these parts...

 

[BroDeal]

Not around these parts...

And we don't talk about getting the rough end of the pineapple here.

Minutes ago I finished watching "The Last Lovecraft Relic of Cthulhu." (It was pretty weak BTW.) Line of dialogue after an actor pulls an eyeball off a Cthulhu mask: "Raped your ****ing mask."

 

[Martin318is]

Sure you can. It's common slang.

Gotta say, I am not aware of it being considered common slang in any of the countries that I have visited...

 

[BroDeal]

Gotta say, I am not aware of it being considered common slang in any of the countries that I have visited...

It's a synonym for pwned. You have people using it in the racing forum that way, hence the complaint by supersensitive busybodies.

Now RR has muddied the waters with his prison rape stuff, which is a different issue.

 

[BroDeal]

The Pakistan issue shows how much difficulty there is in all this. Clearly there is something wrong with the software when part of the name of a country is edited. Then of course, the word Paki itself appears innocent in a lot of countries (or so its said) whereas in a number of countries it is apparently not far above the "N" word as a racial slur.

It's not a problem with the software. It's a problem with the list. The software obviously supports flitering entire words, probably delimited with whitespace or punctuation, or substrings of words. Pak1 has been entered in the list in the wrong way so that it is filtered even if it is a substring of another word.