Modern Day Racing tactics and lack of excitement

[thehog]

As i got trou the posts, i think the main problem comes from the technical support and wrong designed routes. That´s what i think too.

If "Amador ... (is) constantly checking his power meter" (thanks Hrotha to mention this), you guys all know where the problem comes from. It´s the computerized racing: You won´t see riders attacking early b/c they fear the cracking, and then of course you won´t see them cracking. No more variance = dull racing.

As Ferminal said, attrition can be as exciting as attacking. I see it the same way. Problem is, the GT´s get shorter and shorter (both the length of stages and the general length of tours), thus leading to big groups hitting the final mountain (as Fignon said; no more natural separation). And there you just save energy using the drafting instead of attacking (great articles on this theme at sportsscience). Only superior riders like Contador can afford to attack w/o risking a "suicide". And who knows if he is the same as before when he comes back.

I don´t think the problem comes from the WT points system. Just look at soccer, they play the same (defensive) way when rewarded 3 points for a win as they were when receiving 2 points. I absolutely don´t think riders and DS´s have the point system in the head in the heat of the battle. It just sounds too absurd.

The giro 2011 was exciting despite the dominance of Contador. Why? Because it was designed the old way: super hard.

Design GT´s the old way and get rid of the technical support. Then, and only then, you get the exciting racing of the 80s back.

This is the Clinic so I can bring it up; but one of the reasons why it's good that Armstrong eventually goes down is its for good racing today. By people knowing officially that his entire era was crud makes our eyes see a better race.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

This is the Clinic so I can bring it up; but one of the reasons why it's good that Armstrong eventually goes down is its for good racing today. By people knowing officially that his entire era was crud makes our eyes see a better race.

Sure, racing is better now. But we don´t know how clean(ish) it is now. I personally think, in opposite to the above all german mainstream media, the severity of GT´s have nothing to do with the intensity of doping. In the early days of 1900, GT´s were almost double as long, and riders were told to smoke to widen the bronchial tubes. So the riders smoked before stages and still made it trou that massacre!

I see no reason why the GT´s shouldn´t earn their name back, being "grand". Make them as hard as for example the giro 2011, control the guys as best possible, and then you see the balliest, strongest, most determined rider win. No computer, no DS, no drafting, no train wins you the tours anymore.

 

[cineteq]

No, that Liquigas was setting up a fast pace is a myth. They were bluffing, and no one called them out on it because no one wanted to move a finger.

Liquigas was not bluffing, Basso was, as he was found to be in the last few stages. Also they were not counting on Szmyd, a key rider, to falter the last week. So in a way they were perceived as bluffing. With a different leader like you know who it would have been a different story.

 

[Echoes]

This thread is hilarious.

Blood doping and EPO brought more excitment to the race? That's heresy.

For years, I have stated that it was just the opposite. And I demonstrated on this forum with how a race like Milan-Sanremo has evolved ...


In the old days, riders had blackouts, were fighting against themselves and sweating their jerseys. That made the races exciting ... even EPIC !
This is no more.


That's why we HAVE to combat doping. It's all in our interest! And to denounce the post-1990 dopers as jokes. Which is just what they were.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Blood doping and EPO brought more excitment to the race?

Who said this other than the OP?

 

[MarkvW]

The wattmeter hit the pro peloton at about the same time as EPO.

That gizmo helps riders stay within themselves. A rider who "knows" he cannot sustain a certain output for more than a certain period of time is not going to embark on an adventure that requires that sort of output. And those kind of adventures are the ones that can freak the peloton out and make the race character unpredictable.

Combine wattmeters with EPO and radio-control and you get boring.

 

[ElChingon]

Who said this other than the OP?

So is it Power meters and radios that has squished exciting racing and not EPO?

If you read the clinic you know for a fact how it improves performance and how it can and did do that.

Again, just because we hate the riders who did it does not take away from the fact that it was exciting or more exciting than the race of attrition we have now. Other than posters saying, "no it wasn't" does not ever erase the fact that it was. I know that past history is dirty but it is what it is and no amount of turning your back on it will erase it. I still can look back at those DVD's and see some pretty awesome "racing", again yes they were doped and its bad um-kay and all that. Very exciting stuff to watch.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The wattmeter hit the pro peloton at about the same time as EPO.

That gizmo helps riders stay within themselves. A rider who "knows" he cannot sustain a certain output for more than a certain period of time is not going to embark on an adventure that requires that sort of output. And those kind of adventures are the ones that can freak the peloton out and make the race character unpredictable.

Combine wattmeters with EPO and radio-control and you get boring.

Agree, of course.

So is it Power meters and radios that has squished exciting racing and not EPO?

If you read the clinic you know for a fact how it improves performance and how it can and did do that.

Again, just because we hate the riders who did it does not take away from the fact that it was exciting or more exciting than the race of attrition we have now. Other than posters saying, "no it wasn't" does not ever erase the fact that it was. I know that past history is dirty but it is what it is and no amount of turning your back on it will erase it. I still can look back at those DVD's and see some pretty awesome "racing", again yes they were doped and its bad um-kay and all that. Very exciting stuff to watch.

But AFIR, there was no Epo in the great great 1987 tour, and almost sure not in the great great 1988 giro. And maybe not in 89, or when Herrara rode, or Hinault, or Fignon, or Alcala, or, or, or...

 

[BroDeal]

The wattmeter hit the pro peloton at about the same time as EPO.

It did? I don't recall riders rocking power meters during the 90s during races.

Radio use started at the same time as EPO. Race use of power meters was fifteen years later.

 

[Polish]

When Big Mig did the Giro/Tour Double back-to-back in 92/93 it was SO EPIC.

No Race Radios IIRC. Can not remember any radios being used in the Grand Tours of the 90's for the most part. Motorola maybe, but who else?
Never saw a radio in the ear of the epic 90's GT riders IIRC.

BTW, Big Mig almost did THREE Giro/Tour doubles in a row. Damn Berzin grrrrr.

 

[MarkvW]

So is it Power meters and radios that has squished exciting racing and not EPO?

If you read the clinic you know for a fact how it improves performance and how it can and did do that.

Again, just because we hate the riders who did it does not take away from the fact that it was exciting or more exciting than the race of attrition we have now. Other than posters saying, "no it wasn't" does not ever erase the fact that it was. I know that past history is dirty but it is what it is and no amount of turning your back on it will erase it. I still can look back at those DVD's and see some pretty awesome "racing", again yes they were doped and its bad um-kay and all that. Very exciting stuff to watch.

The character of a race is the product of a complex of different things.

I don't equate improved performance with a more interesting race.

 

[simoni]

It did? I don't recall riders rocking power meters during the 90s during races.

Radio use started at the same time as EPO. Race use of power meters was fifteen years later.

I recall reading an article on Peter Keen and Boradman's hour record prep in 1993 where they were using SRMs (? - an early version of something anyway) on a stationary bike but they weighed a tonne and very few riders used them in races for years.

But now that theres a minimum bike weight limit and other components have advanced so far you may as well use one. A quick google shows very few riders using them even in 2007/2008 but now they're pretty much de rigeur. I can't believe they make a big difference to tactics though - these are top class sportspeople who are highly in tune with their bodies. Perceived effort is also a good guide to how fast to ride.

Have tactics really changed that much though? Indurain used to get his team riding at the front for hours on end and at least a couple of his tour wins weren't all that interesting. We see him as a TT specialist but in 1993 for example he was on the spot in every mountain stage that mattered.

Do radios really make a difference in mountain stages? Team cars can get to riders more easily, blackboard time checks are frequent and there's usually time to make informed tactical decisions.