Moncoutie

[Race Radio]

90+% doped during the 80ies, especially on PDM. LeMond is surely a doper, right?

Dude, name your sources or keep quiet.

Nonsense. What happened with Greg saw what was happening on PDM? He broke his contract and left. What did David do? Stuck around for 10 years

 

[Mr.38%]

Nonsense. What happened with Greg saw what was happening on PDM? He broke his contract and left. What did David do? Stuck around for 10 years

Which team would he have gone to?

 

[blackcat]

In other words, no "smoking gun"?
Just people who have a vested interest in propagating the myth that everybody is a doper,
and the other myth
that since everybody dopes the pro peloton is a level-playing field

some respect for the great Race Radio pls.

if he has not earnt the deference of the forum, and the wider industry, who has.

the posters who should have greater weight in their contrubutions, are 131313 and RR.

for every 1 post they make, =1000 posts of lesser mortals on the forum

 

[blackcat]

Which team would he have gone to?

saunier duval
ferretti ftw

 

[Zam_Olyas]

some respect for the great Race Radio pls.

if he has not earnt the deference of the forum, and the wider industry, who has.

the posters who should have greater weight in their contrubutions, are 131313 and RR.

for every 1 post they make, =1000 posts of lesser mortals on the forum

The RR is respected but it's just that we want a few more than what he is saying.

 

[blackcat]

Moncoutie's team history has been discussed here at length, so you're not going to convince anyone with that argument. It doesn't make sense that someone would become a pariah by doping in secret in a team where everyone else (bar Moncoutié and Tombak, apparently) did it openly in an era where acceptance of doping was practically universal.

i was not able to find this last time i attempted to, but when Tombek was on Mitsubishi Jartazi, i think he was embroiled in some investigation. I like him at Cofidis too, there were years he was mixing it up in the bunch sprints in July, when they should have lent support to him, and allowed Ogrady to be a stage hunter. think Jaan Kirsipuu said, only clean rider in the peloton was Thor. Sorry, ONLY WINNING clean rider. winning was the qualifier. think its Jan Kirsipuu only one "a".

 

[blackcat]

The RR is respected but it's just that we want a few more than what he is saying.

i have a personal issue if Sky and Brailsford, via Richie, or Porte himself, have sought out RR to ride his crediblity. to piggyback him.

when RR says "no evidence of systematic program".

ofcourse, this is correct.

however, there is no longer the leeway for a team to pursue a ONCE, Festina, Telekom, USPS systemic program.

so what you have, are the wives/girlfriends and max sciandri/rob hayles motoman mrs raimondus rumsas program. individual, free market operators.

The new systemic program, is the metaphor of, Command Control USSR to decentralise free market capitalism sole operator.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

i have a personal issue if Sky and Brailsford, via Richie, or Porte himself, have sought out RR to ride his crediblity. to piggyback him.

when RR says "no evidence of systematic program".

ofcourse, this is correct.

however, there is no longer the leeway for a team to pursue a ONCE, Festina, Telekom, USPS systemic program.

so what you have, are the wives/girlfriends and max sciandri/rob hayles motoman mrs raimondus rumsas program. individual, free market operators.

The new systemic program, is the metaphor of, Command Control USSR to decentralise free market capitalism sole operator.

I was talking about his statement on Moncoutie.

 

[blackcat]

I was talking about his statement on Moncoutie.

wrt to David Moncoutie, is just have confirmation bias. I cant believe he has every ridden without a little help. and same with most of garmin, but i never thought they have a program. just riders are left to their own devices.

 

[roundabout]

i was not able to find this last time i attempted to, but when Tombek was on Mitsubishi Jartazi, i think he was embroiled in some investigation. I like him at Cofidis too, there were years he was mixing it up in the bunch sprints in July, when they should have lent support to him, and allowed Ogrady to be a stage hunter. think Jaan Kirsipuu said, only clean rider in the peloton was Thor. Sorry, ONLY WINNING clean rider. winning was the qualifier. think its Jan Kirsipuu only one "a".

Tombak was a supplement junkie. Would order a lot of dodgy stuff over the web. Don't think there is any evidence of him doping though.

And it's two "a"s.

 

[The Hitch]

Have you read the clinic lately?

It is funny to watch a few posters attack any rider who rode on SKY when Lienders was there but ignore a guy who rode on one of the dirtiest teams in the sport for over a decade. How.

. You said posters go after riders just for winning. Respectfully, winning every stage race you enter over a 5 month period which Wiggins did last year and froome would have done this year if not for having just missed the win at ta, is not quite the same thing as just winning?

Presumably what you want to say is not that clinic members attack anyone who wins but rather that they attack anyone who absolutely dominates ( in sky's case on an unprescedented scale at least for the modern era)

Of course the case against sky goes beyond just winning all these races on ridiculous never before seen half year long peaks but also the immense transformations their 2 big riders have underwent from pack fodder to world beaters.you do realize that right? Since you are bringing sky into this and comparing their achievements to moncoutie.

And I'm not saying David was clean. I thought maybe he was but if you say there is more to it then I believe you. It's just you are really underselling the case against sky. Its ok to believe they really have chanced upon the 2 greatest athletes in history, but at least aknowledge what the case against them is.

 

[Netserk]

I'd just like to hear which arguments convinced RR that David isn't clean, as I'd guess that they would be able to convince many.

 

[Ferminal]

Which team would he have gone to?

Slipstream

 

[Le breton]

some respect for the great Race Radio pls.

This is what I wrote :
In other words, no "smoking gun"?
Just people who have a vested interest in propagating the myth that everybody is a doper,
and the other myth
that since everybody dopes the pro peloton is a level-playing field

I don't see how that would be a lack of respect,

I'm sure you have a lot of respect for Einstein, as I do, for all his accomplishment, yet you will probably agree with me that he was way off the mark on a few topics (advantage of hindsight).

 

[frenchfry]

Nonsense. What happened with Greg saw what was happening on PDM? He broke his contract and left. What did David do? Stuck around for 10 years

Wasn't Moncoutié a bit of a loner, not really involved in the team - for both training and racing. This isn't confirmation of his "clean" reputation (in fact, a loner could be considered more likely to dope) but could explain why he didn't change teams despite the occasional doping related turmoil. And what has already been mentioned, what team would he have gone to?

I was compared to Moncoutié the other day, not because I ride clean but because I tend to ride off the back on the flats and don't like to mix it up in the group when the speed is high (also a relatively good climber). Clean or not, he would never have been a GC contender for these reasons.

 

[thehog]

Moncoutié.

Then he must have been doping from 1999 to 2012 since his performances have been consistent over his whole career.

Do I understand it correctly that your opinion on Moncoutié is based on talking to other pros, staff, soigneurs?

In other words, no "smoking gun"?
Just people who have a vested interest in propagating the myth that everybody is a doper,
and the other myth
that since everybody dopes the pro peloton is a level-playing field

Moncoutie was meant to be the great white hope for the French.

He got caught up in two speeds cycling.

The French have had their own version of the bio passport since 2000. Whilst you still can dope its a lot harder. We've seen what's occurred with Rolland and Vockler that the French federation will sideline you for abnormal results. No other federation will do that.

Moncoutie rebranded himself by winning the mountains jersey at the Vuelta. He'd get into the early breaks in week 1 an 2 to amass his points. He was never climbing with the best in week 3. He had his own strategy and it worked.

It's not like he could only win a stage of the Atomic Jock race and then wins the Vuelta 3 months later!

Cofdis was amateur hour doping. It was a nightclub. Those guys were snorting on the team bus before races! It wasn't US Postal logistical doping. It was party town!

 

[DirtyWorks]

however, there is no longer the leeway for a team to pursue a ONCE, Festina, Telekom, USPS systemic program.

so what you have, are the wives/girlfriends and max sciandri/rob hayles motoman mrs raimondus rumsas program. individual, free market operators.

#1: IMHO, it's too soon to say there's no teamwide doping. The DSs are mostly all still working and the new somatotype of super-duper-skinny and extraordinary power across squads (AICAR?) suggests otherwise. The UCI certainly isn't different.

#2 Wives and girlfriends were definitely a part of the teamwide programs. Dede Demet/Barry, at least one Armstrong ex. and on and on.

There's less oxygen vector doping to alien proportions.

 

[Afrank]

I'd just like to hear which arguments convinced RR that David isn't clean, as I'd guess that they would be able to convince many.

+1, same here. Unfortunately it looks like Race Radio will never reveal those arguments. Until he does (I'm not holding my breath) I guess I'll just assume Moncoutie was clean.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Have you read the clinic lately?

It is funny to watch a few posters attack any rider who rode on SKY when Lienders was there but ignore a guy who rode on one of the dirtiest teams in the sport for over a decade. How many positives on Cofidis during his time? How many police raids? How many doping doctors? How many junkies? Lots.

1. That's nonsense. No one attacks any rider who rode for Sky because of Leinders. You'll be hard pressed to find posters who believe every Sky rider is dirty (besides Blackcat). Remind me what it was you said about distorting the content of posts again? So while people believe the hiring of a known doping doctor like Leinders is a major red flag against the team management (duh!), they don't actually accuse riders like Danny Pate of doping. So your observation falls flat.

2. Where exactly was Moncoutié supposed to go?

3. Bassons did not leave Festina or speak out against doping until after the Festina-affair. Dirty?

4. A decade? Are you saying Cofidis was one of the dirtiest teams in the sport beyond 2004? Like, when Bradley Wiggins rode for the team?

5. It doesn't matter how many doping doctors they hired. It (apparently) doesn't prove or even indicate that the team management tolerates doping, nor that a single rider on the team is doping. Hiring doping docs is perfectly innocent. Stupid, but innocent. Especially if they left their previous gig "in anger because he disagreed with new, clean, direction". Nothing suspicious about it.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Math is not your strength is it?

Not saying Wiggins is clean but his fluctuations are not even close to Floyd's 10% increase in Hct and drop in Reti. Floyd had an off score of 105 Wiggins was between averaged around 90 for the Tour, dropping below 85 in the final week

Hb is more reliable than Hct.

Floyd 2006:

29.06.2006 15.5 g/dl 1.3%
11.07.2006 16.1 g/dl 0.9%

Wiggo 2009:

Hb and Off-score (close to 100) peaking in the 3rd week.

Retics were 30% lower than baseline throughout the TdF (ask veloclinic).

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

David Millar's 2008 blood is also interesting. Highest Hb and lowest retics (just 50% of baseline!) of the entire season was measured half-way through the TdF! Maybe Saint Dave is the clean guy with super weird blood JV was talking about?

 

[Baltazar]

The flaw in the argument "There are no obvious signs of doping like they were on USPS" is flawed. First of all, wasn't Armstrong famous for pretty much flaunting his doping in front of "insiders"?

Wouldn't these new age dopers learn from his mistakes and do it a bit more discreetly. Doping now is probably done in a much more secret way as it was before. I think the days where you could have EPO safely in the team bus are gone. This is the inevitable consequence of the peloton's supposedly clean public image.

I wouldn't be surprised if the teammates who aren't in on it wouldn't know.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

The flaw in the argument "There are no obvious signs of doping like they were on USPS" is flawed. First of all, wasn't Armstrong famous for pretty much flaunting his doping in front of "insiders"?

Wouldn't these new age dopers learn from his mistakes and do it a bit more discreetly. Doping now is probably done in a much more secret way as it was before. I think the days where you could have EPO safely in the team bus are gone. This is the inevitable consequence of the peloton's supposedly clean public image.

I wouldn't be surprised if the teammates who aren't in on it wouldn't know.

What Ashenden said:

First, there must be something to hide. Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-michael-ashenden-on-omerta-101

Pockets of dopers. Not team-wide in your face doping.

 

[thehog]

What Ashenden said:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-michael-ashenden-on-omerta-101

Pockets of dopers. Not team-wide in your face doping.

He knows...

 

[Race Radio]

What Ashenden said:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-michael-ashenden-on-omerta-101

Pockets of dopers. Not team-wide in your face doping.

I agree with what Ashenden has said. As usual he is pretty accurate. I would also say that there are plenty of clean Pro riders. No needles, 'Recovery" or blood bags.

Amateurs? That is a different story.