Most Farcical Tour Ever?

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Jul 6, 2010
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180mmCrank said:
The West Germans were a couple of young students... the UK Pair was Pinsent and Regrave ... two of the greatest Olympians in history of the Olympics ... Redgrave won Gold at 5 consecutive Games (1984 -2000) and Pinsent at 4 consecutive Games (1992 - 2004) neither of these two doped ... nor believed in unicorns ;)

Yes as rowers some of us were 'smart and well educated' not all (Redgrave left school at 16) but non of us were interested in finding out about doping because the nature of our involvement in our sport would never have been compatible with competing in that way. People can choose to believe this or not but that is how it was for all of us and still is to this day.

This experience is the basis of how I make sense of what I see in the World of sport - I don't believe in miracles - but I do believe in extraordinary performances. I have seen many that were not enhanced by chemistry.

All good :)

T
That, my friends, is the essence of the cynical nature of the Clinic.

We want clean sport, and truly value it. We're justified in our doubt, because we've only been lied to.

We're not haters, we're lovers of cycling.

Yipes! Time to put the bong away...
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Well folks, I've watched every Tour since 1995 (watched '95 through '98 on tape and the rest all live) and this year was indeed by far the most farcical Tour I've seen in all those years. The only one that was comparable that I can recall was US Postal in I think 2002 - if I'm wrong on the year the one I'm talking about is the one where Lance gave Ulrich "the look" at the base of Alpe D'Huez and took off to put 3 minutes into everyone. Anyway, on that day among many other US Postal just trained on the front all day over 3 mountains through the Alpes and Pyrenees. Well, Sky this year was worse than that. The dominated every discpline - GC, TT's, Sprints, climbing, and they didn't even really have to attack, they just rode everyone off their wheel day in and day out.

There is no question in my mind that the sport is fixed and the UCI is allowing certain teams to dope up (obviously Sky this year) and are warning other teams that they will be busted if they dope up in a challenge agains the chosen team.
 
BikeCentric said:
...was US Postal in I think 2002 - if I'm wrong on the year the one I'm talking about is the one where Lance gave Ulrich "the look" at the base of Alpe D'Huez and took off to put 3 minutes into everyone


I think it was the 2001 TdF BC

Lance Armstrong (USA)
Jan Ullrich (Ger) 1'59"
Joseba Beloki (Spa) 2'09"
Christophe Moreau (Fra) 2'30"
Oscar Sevilla (Spa) 2'54"
Francisco Mancebo (Spa) 4'01"
Laurent Roux (Fra) 4'03"
Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) 4'03"

Roberto Laiseka (Spa) 4'03"
Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) 4'07"

hmmmm...what a list of 'climbers' ;) . I couldn't find anything on Laiseka. Anyone??
 
Apr 8, 2010
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sittingbison said:
One of the problems is that Sky did NOT see something in him. Brailsford seems to have rated him as wayyyy below average, and he was not offered a contract in 2011 until after the Veulta and his "out of the blue" performance
Do we know that he wasn't offered a contract? It may be that he was offered contracts but didn't take them because he knew/felt that he would/should be offered more money. I read somewhere that he's on over a million a year. He could easily have turned down contracts for over 100k in the meantime.
 
Apr 8, 2010
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BikeCentric said:
The only one that was comparable that I can recall was US Postal in I think 2002 - if I'm wrong on the year the one I'm talking about is the one where Lance gave Ulrich "the look" at the base of Alpe D'Huez and took off to put 3 minutes into everyone. Anyway, on that day among many other US Postal just trained on the front all day over 3 mountains through the Alpes and Pyrenees.
I'm not going to look it up either, but I thought the story of that day was that the USP train *weasn't* on form that day; that in fact, Armstrong was isolated in the lead group. That was supposed to be the reason why he feigned being below par, sitting on thee back of the group looking miserable. The idea was that the lead group tolerated him being there because he didn't look liek a threat. Then when they got to the Alpe, he gave the look, and took off.
 
BikeCentric said:
Well folks, I've watched every Tour since 1995 (watched '95 through '98 on tape and the rest all live) and this year was indeed by far the most farcical Tour I've seen in all those years. The only one that was comparable that I can recall was US Postal in I think 2002 - if I'm wrong on the year the one I'm talking about is the one where Lance gave Ulrich "the look" at the base of Alpe D'Huez and took off to put 3 minutes into everyone. Anyway, on that day among many other US Postal just trained on the front all day over 3 mountains through the Alpes and Pyrenees. Well, Sky this year was worse than that. The dominated every discpline - GC, TT's, Sprints, climbing, and they didn't even really have to attack, they just rode everyone off their wheel day in and day out.

There is no question in my mind that the sport is fixed and the UCI is allowing certain teams to dope up (obviously Sky this year) and are warning other teams that they will be busted if they dope up in a challenge agains the chosen team.
Makes you wonder if thats the reason there were so many 'abandons' this year...top names leaving...feigning injury so they could abandon.
 
Jul 19, 2012
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The Hitch said:
In and of its own it may be authentic. but when you consider that in 2007 Wiggins said that one should be sceptical about the winners of the next 6 Tours (including 2012) and now he has turned his position 180 degrees and refuses to even speak about the issue, well that is very dishonest.
Tin foil hat on it's way to Mr Hitch.

Substance dear boy substance; the above paranoid interpretation ain't got any of it!
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Snafu352 said:
Tin foil hat on it's way to Mr Hitch.

Substance dear boy substance; the above paranoid interpretation ain't got any of it!
I don't see what paranoia you're reading into that. He's just saying that Wiggins contradicts what he said a few years ago, when he (his rant) implies that reasonable people wouldn't question him because he was leading the TDF.
 
Jul 19, 2012
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BikeCentric said:
There is no question in my mind that the sport is fixed and the UCI is allowing certain teams to dope up (obviously Sky this year) and are warning other teams that they will be busted if they dope up in a challenge agains the chosen team.
If this is the case what other motive do the members of the UCI have for this than personal financial gain?

As with most things it should be a question of following the money to prove the theory.
 
Jul 19, 2012
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taiwan said:
I don't see what paranoia you're reading into that. He's just saying that Wiggins contradicts what he said a few years ago, when he (his rant) implies that reasonable people wouldn't question him because he was leading the TDF.
Maybe paranoia was the wrong term, it flowed from the strong tin foil hat element of the original post.

The dishonest element and the refusal to speak about it element of the post were the parts i see as being tin foil esque.

He has spoken about it very eloquently and very recently; do i need to post a link to the Guardian article or refer you to his slightly less eloquent response when asked if he would like to respond to anonymous allegations of doping?

For me his position is very clear and has not changed a mm.

Thus to claim he has contradicted himself or refuses to talk about doping is ignoring the facts and seeking to promote an agenda that portrays Wiggins in a bad light for reasons unknown.

Tin foil hat time.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Snafu352 said:
If this is the case what other motive do the members of the UCI have for this than personal financial gain?

As with most things it should be a question of following the money to prove the theory.
Want to associate themselves with Sky's glossy branding and Brtish Cycling's credibility? Altough personal financial gain is probable.
 
Jul 19, 2012
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What does an anonymous member of the UCI get from associating themselves with the Sky brand if it is not ultimately financial reward??

To prove these allegations is so incredibly simple that it would / should have been done by now if there were any truth in them...:p

Follow the money!
 
BikeCentric said:
Well folks, I've watched every Tour since 1995 (watched '95 through '98 on tape and the rest all live) and this year was indeed by far the most farcical Tour I've seen in all those years. The only one that was comparable that I can recall was US Postal in I think 2002 - if I'm wrong on the year the one I'm talking about is the one where Lance gave Ulrich "the look" at the base of Alpe D'Huez and took off to put 3 minutes into everyone. Anyway, on that day among many other US Postal just trained on the front all day over 3 mountains through the Alpes and Pyrenees. Well, Sky this year was worse than that. The dominated every discpline - GC, TT's, Sprints, climbing, and they didn't even really have to attack, they just rode everyone off their wheel day in and day out.

There is no question in my mind that the sport is fixed and the UCI is allowing certain teams to dope up (obviously Sky this year) and are warning other teams that they will be busted if they dope up in a challenge agains the chosen team.
At least a charged up Armstrong gave up yellow on day two of the 2002 tour. While USPS probably could have defended the yellow it gave the appearance they were concerned about burning out the team.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Snafu352 said:
Maybe paranoia was the wrong term, it flowed from the strong tin foil hat element of the original post.

The dishonest element and the refusal to speak about it element of the post were the parts i see as being tin foil esque.

He has spoken about it very eloquently and very recently; do i need to post a link to the Guardian article or refer you to his slightly less eloquent response when asked if he would like to respond to anonymous allegations of doping?

For me his position is very clear and has not changed a mm.

Thus to claim he has contradicted himself or refuses to talk about doping is ignoring the facts and seeking to promote an agenda that portrays Wiggins in a bad light for reasons unknown.

Tin foil hat time.
"My priority next year is the Olympic Games but what has happened in this year's Tour has made my determination to come through it even stronger and prove there can be clean winners in this sport. I still believe it is a minority who are willing to push the boundaries. They all seem to be over 30, guys coming to the end of their careers. But you cannot blame people for doubting the credibility of the sport for the next five, six or seven years."

If you sympathise with people who doubt the credibility of cyclists but get pi$$ed when they doubt your own credibility the position is inconsistent, you must admit. And it's not even that clear what is the more honest reflection of his personal view - a spur of the moment rant, or an edited/ghost written blog put out specifically to fix the PR fvckup caused by said rant.
 
May 26, 2010
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taiwan said:
Want to associate themselves with Sky's glossy branding and Brtish Cycling's credibility? Altough personal financial gain is probable.
Pat McQuaid has had a long association with elements with Brit Cycling. he was part of the Kellogs tour that brought the races 2 Dublin and Cork.

He set up the Nissan Tour of Ireland along with British organisers.

McQuaid is nothing new in British Cycling cirlces.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Snafu352 said:
What does an anonymous member of the UCI get from associating themselves with the Sky brand if it is not ultimately financial reward??

To prove these allegations is so incredibly simple that it would / should have been done by now if there were any truth in them...:p

Follow the money!
General point was you can have cozy mutually beneficial relationships without any cash directly changing hands.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Maxiton said:
But to answer the OP's question, Is this the most farcical Tour ever?, I think the answer is obvious. So farcical I couldn't watch it.

This may turn out to be the Tour that finally murdered pro cycling.
Couldn't agree more. Stopped watching after the first Alpine stage. Nothing to see anymore.

Took a 6-7 day hiatus. My sleeping patterns were better off for it. Spent more time at the gym. I am better off for it.

Watched the last Pyrenean stage. Glad Valverde won...Froome could quite easily have won that. Had a good laugh at the full frontal nudity the producer couldn't cut during the last climb. Was one of the few moves that made the race at least interesting.

Watch the stage aftwerward. Disgusting. Wiggins leading EBH out for Cav in the final sprint. It's not like I think Goss and Sagan are clean, far from it, but Cav made them look like meagre whelps in the sprint. Roy (think he was the Frenchman) and Lulu had a reason to be ****ed. The Brits on team Sky will clean up the Olympic medals. They'll win both Gold medals on offer, the road race and the ITT. Will pick up a silver or bronze as well in the ITT if they get a second rider. Can't wait to hear what Spartacus will have to say. Cav's sprint for his second win...fastest I have ever seen a sprinter go. Without him, two breakaways would have won. Alienesque sprinting level compared to everyone else.

I was actually sympathetic to Cav before that. Didn't like it one bit.

I will say this though. Good to see Froome's missus ripping at the throat of Wiggins whench. Tell the old slapper to get back into line and remind them that Wiggins win was a courtesy. Chris had heaps more in the tank. I approve of Froome's GF. Looks like Tricia Helfer of Battlestar Galactica fame. Nice looking sort. Wiggins wife? Looks like your typical Anglo-saxon small town annoying wallet drainer that entertains herself by making every else's life in her immediate circles existence pure misery. Cat fight....!!!!:p

But apparently Cav's girl, page 3 model, whatever her name is, sided with Froome's Saffer GF in the Twitter war. Maybe Cav is still peeved at Sky? Yeah, because 3 stage wins when you can win 6 is satisfaction? Right? Don't know.

Though I will state the Tour of 2007 was a farce performance wise. But gosh, was it entertaining. Bottle's doping regime that last week was amazing. Outperformed both Evans and AC. But this year wins. Whole team Sky was a farce. Yes stage 17 in 2006 was a joke, plus 2007 was hardly clean, but we still had a race. Other could still for most of the race compete. But it's like thehog said during the first week. Wiggins was going to hold yellow all the way to Paris. Nobody could attack, that's how much of a farce it was.

If Froome is let off the leash at the Vuelta, he'll win. AC can't match his chrono. FFS, the top two guys made Cancellara over 40km look lame. Ac only beat him by 3 seconds on a climb heavy chrono. Once. Froome can arguably climb like AC and do an ITT 30-45 seconds faster. Vuelta will be a joke if Froome is let loose. Giro next year? Porte will race it. Will be another joke. Yeah...looking like the 2012 Tour might have dealt a death blow to pro cycling. Vaughters and co must be kicking themselves in the foot for the approach they've taken with the clean cycling message since 2008. It's all gone up in smoke. Nobody can stay at the level they were...they'll get the scraps Sky disposes of if they do.
 
Sep 18, 2010
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
I really don't get the fuzz.

Maybe it's me underrating Nibali and Vandenbroeck and overrating some others. But Wiggins/Froome just had to deal with Nibali and Vandenbroeck. And while both sure a very consistent GT riders. They are both fairly obviously limited.
Vandenbroeck is a follower in the mountains and a decent (at best) time trial specialist. Nibali is a decent climber and a bit better than Vandenbroeck at ITT, but not really special either. But Nibali has more fight and guts (in downhill), but even that doesn't make up for pure class.

Menchov and Evans turned out to be over the hill. Sanchez already started with a bad preparation after getting injured in the Dauphine and then literally fell away. Gesink, who did his strongest time trials ever this season also fell away. Hesjedal fell away. And Contador and Andy didn't even start (no Andy would never have won, but provided different dynamics in the mountains...)

So basically it's been a pretty much quality-poor Tour. With a course perfectly suited for the Sky riders. Ofcourse you get domination
That's a well-reasoned argument. My problem with it is that you have to say the same about their domination of the Dauphine, Romandie, Paris-Nice.

Sky seem to be finding a lot of stage races where the opposition is poor and the parcours suit them.

Maybe it's a perfect storm of Contador being banned, RSNT being a shambles, Sanchez keep getting injured, and a bunch of others (e.g. Basso, Evans) on the downslide = Sky looking like they're doped up.

Possibly.

But I still can't get over Froome going from being on the cusp of being let go to being arguably good enough to win 2 grand tours in less than a year.

But then, I'm not sure dope explains that either. If he were doping prior to the Vuelta (as part of a Sky programme), why didn't Brailsford know how good he was on dope?

Did Brailsford really have no access to CF's training data?

It's all very mysterious.
 
Jun 15, 2010
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Galic Ho said:
Couldn't agree more. Stopped watching after the first Alpine stage. Nothing to see anymore.

Took a 6-7 day hiatus. My sleeping patterns were better off for it. Spent more time at the gym. I am better off for it.

Watched the last Pyrenean stage. Glad Valverde won...Froome could quite easily have won that. Had a good laugh at the full frontal nudity the producer couldn't cut during the last climb. Was one of the few moves that made the race at least interesting.

Watch the stage aftwerward. Disgusting. Wiggins leading EBH out for Cav in the final sprint. It's not like I think Goss and Sagan are clean, far from it, but Cav made them look like meagre whelps in the sprint. Roy (think he was the Frenchman) and Lulu had a reason to be ****ed. The Brits on team Sky will clean up the Olympic medals. They'll win both Gold medals on offer, the road race and the ITT. Will pick up a silver or bronze as well in the ITT if they get a second rider. Can't wait to hear what Spartacus will have to say. Cav's sprint for his second win...fastest I have ever seen a sprinter go. Without him, two breakaways would have won. Alienesque sprinting level compared to everyone else.

I was actually sympathetic to Cav before that. Didn't like it one bit.

I will say this though. Good to see Froome's missus ripping at the throat of Wiggins whench. Tell the old slapper to get back into line and remind them that Wiggins win was a courtesy. Chris had heaps more in the tank. I approve of Froome's GF. Looks like Tricia Helfer of Battlestar Galactica fame. Nice looking sort. Wiggins wife? Looks like your typical Anglo-saxon small town annoying wallet drainer that entertains herself by making every else's life in her immediate circles existence pure misery. Cat fight....!!!!:p

But apparently Cav's girl, page 3 model, whatever her name is, sided with Froome's Saffer GF in the Twitter war. Maybe Cav is still peeved at Sky? Yeah, because 3 stage wins when you can win 6 is satisfaction? Right? Don't know.

Though I will state the Tour of 2007 was a farce performance wise. But gosh, was it entertaining. Bottle's doping regime that last week was amazing. Outperformed both Evans and AC. But this year wins. Whole team Sky was a farce. Yes stage 17 in 2006 was a joke, plus 2007 was hardly clean, but we still had a race. Other could still for most of the race compete. But it's like thehog said during the first week. Wiggins was going to hold yellow all the way to Paris. Nobody could attack, that's how much of a farce it was.

If Froome is let off the leash at the Vuelta, he'll win. AC can't match his chrono. FFS, the top two guys made Cancellara over 40km look lame. Ac only beat him by 3 seconds on a climb heavy chrono. Once. Froome can arguably climb like AC and do an ITT 30-45 seconds faster. Vuelta will be a joke if Froome is let loose. Giro next year? Porte will race it. Will be another joke. Yeah...looking like the 2012 Tour might have dealt a death blow to pro cycling. Vaughters and co must be kicking themselves in the foot for the approach they've taken with the clean cycling message since 2008. It's all gone up in smoke. Nobody can stay at the level they were...they'll get the scraps Sky disposes of if they do.
Will a Vuelta team of Froome,Henao,Uran,Nordhaug,Lovkvist,Dowsett,Swift,Stannard,Flecha.
Be more dominant than the tour de France team?
 
Dalakhani said:
But I still can't get over Froome going from being on the cusp of being let go to being arguably good enough to win 2 grand tours in less than a year.

But then, I'm not sure dope explains that either. If he were doping prior to the Vuelta (as part of a Sky programme), why didn't Brailsford know how good he was on dope?

Did Brailsford really have no access to CF's training data?

It's all very mysterious.
It’s not just Froome came from nowhere in 2011.

He was 15 minutes per stage off the pace at Romadie. Even if he was greatest living cyclist of all time then that’s some turn around by July! Not even Fabs the great could pull that off!

It simply doesn’t add up.
 
May 26, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
If Froome is let off the leash at the Vuelta, he'll win. AC can't match his chrono. FFS, the top two guys made Cancellara over 40km look lame. Ac only beat him by 3 seconds on a climb heavy chrono. Once. Froome can arguably climb like AC and do an ITT 30-45 seconds faster. Vuelta will be a joke if Froome is let loose.
It's my thought exactly... I think Sky will have another few years of marginal gains. AC never managed to humiliate his opponents like Sky did.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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AC is coming back from a ban anyway - he might have been scared into knocking back his programme, and he's tainted for the July Fan. I think Froome will take another victory for clean cycling.
 
May 26, 2009
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taiwan said:
AC is coming back from a ban anyway - he might have been scared into knocking back his programme, and he's tainted for the July Fan. I think Froome will take another victory for clean cycling.
Contador and Wiggo had a similar score on the bloodpassport list ;)
 

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