Motor doping thread

[Benotti69]

Re:

His Alpe effort was good, but certainly not ridiculous.

The point was, tho, that 1) Sastre has very good recuperation and stamina, he is basically a worse Quintana and 2) he did close to nothing apart from saving energy that whole race up until Alpe. Which sniper obviously would know if he watched races.

Stop attacking the poster.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Re:

What an outstanding find.

CSC clearly at the forefront of this development.

Which begs questions about Sastre 2008, too.

Now I'm wanting somebody to tie this in to Baby Schleck's infamous chain-drop

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

IIRC, that AdH time was pretty darn impressive.

What I cannot wrap my head around is how the decision would be made to use a motor in a bike, and how they execute the rest. Do they do it on all races, or just a the main goal of the season? Do they do it on all GC significant stages, or just on a few? Or just a TT? Would a rider even go all out when using a motor? Anything more than 20W is a huge boost, especially if you're already a top 15 rider. How many people would have to know about this?

Main thing for me is that the benefit of a motor would be a bigger than the differences between doping programmes. When a new, untracable drug hits the sport, it doesn't take long for a lot of riders to be on it. Look at cera. I have a hard time imagining some riders using motors and the rest of the peloton not being in it or using motors, especially when it's a long-time rumor.

Lastly, there's a chance for conventional dopers to not want to risk it. But that's a rather small thing and there's probably always people who'd want to risk it.

The largest difference between motor doping and pharmaceuticals is distribution. Any medicine has well established distribution channels and tend to be ubiquitous wherever it's been approved. Just about anyone in the medical field would have an understanding of where and how to procure the drug.

Motors... not so much. I'm guessing motor-doping is following a "boutique" model where very few people are making them and you have to show up with lots of $$$ and an introduction from someone trusted. Although you can buy hidden motor systems online, there are only a handful of publicly known manufacturers. Risky!

John Swanson

 

[veganrob]

Re:

More than the Alpe D'Huez was the last TT.

I agree with this. The last TT was ridiculous for Sastre.

 

[Tienus]

Re: Re:

What an outstanding find.

CSC clearly at the forefront of this development.

Which begs questions about Sastre 2008, too.

Now I'm wanting somebody to tie this in to Baby Schleck's infamous chain-drop

Here you go
viewtopic.php?p=2051746#p2051746

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

IIRC, that AdH time was pretty darn impressive.

What I cannot wrap my head around is how the decision would be made to use a motor in a bike, and how they execute the rest. Do they do it on all races, or just a the main goal of the season? Do they do it on all GC significant stages, or just on a few? Or just a TT? Would a rider even go all out when using a motor? Anything more than 20W is a huge boost, especially if you're already a top 15 rider. How many people would have to know about this?

Main thing for me is that the benefit of a motor would be a bigger than the differences between doping programmes. When a new, untracable drug hits the sport, it doesn't take long for a lot of riders to be on it. Look at cera. I have a hard time imagining some riders using motors and the rest of the peloton not being in it or using motors, especially when it's a long-time rumor.

Lastly, there's a chance for conventional dopers to not want to risk it. But that's a rather small thing and there's probably always people who'd want to risk it.

The largest difference between motor doping and pharmaceuticals is distribution. Any medicine has well established distribution channels and tend to be ubiquitous wherever it's been approved. Just about anyone in the medical field would have an understanding of where and how to procure the drug.

Motors... not so much. I'm guessing motor-doping is following a "boutique" model where very few people are making them and you have to show up with lots of $$$ and an introduction from someone trusted. Although you can buy hidden motor systems online, there are only a handful of publicly known manufacturers. Risky!

John Swanson

Ok, makes sense. I guess it could happen that more people figure out how to do it and it becomes more widespread, but it's definitely a different world from the pharmaceutical world.

 

[Tienus]

I posted this a couple of weeks ago but it seems relevant again:
Basso winning the Giro and three stages while experimenting with a bike he never used before.
https://roadcyclinguk.com/news/racing-news/bassos-cervelos.html
Ivan rode the R3 in a couple of stages largely as an experiment. He had never ridden an R3 but had heard Cancellara and Kroon talk about it, so he wanted to try one out himself. It’s not a very useful bike for him as it falls below the UCI weight limit so he needs to add weights.
Cancellara's breakthrough was in 2006. It was also the first year he won Roubaix.

More from 2006:
https://youtu.be/GI9_SIJrhTo?t=3m35s

 

[sniper]

Re:

I posted this a couple of weeks ago but it seems relevant again:
Basso winning the Giro and three stages while experimenting with a bike he never used before.
https://roadcyclinguk.com/news/racing-news/bassos-cervelos.html
Ivan rode the R3 in a couple of stages largely as an experiment. He had never ridden an R3 but had heard Cancellara and Kroon talk about it, so he wanted to try one out himself. It’s not a very useful bike for him as it falls below the UCI weight limit so he needs to add weights.
Cancellara's breakthrough was in 2006. It was also the first year he won Roubaix.

More from 2006:
https://youtu.be/GI9_SIJrhTo?t=3m35s

Yes I remember it.
Intriguing, if not to say suspect.

Maybe there's a link with the Mapei institute/Sassi?
Cadel who I think used a motor in 2011 was a client of Sassi too.

Mapei and motors, could explain why Sassi was so confident that he could let Ricco ride clean.

 

[Escarabajo]

Honestly, I thought all that CSC domination was more to the CERA doping. But the other riders would be doing it as well. But in 2008 all that CERA hype kind of died when they caught those riders at the Tour. It became too risky after that.

All that PR info looks suspect now. It is indeed a nice find.

Note: Sorry I meant 2008 Tour

 

[Red Rick]

Wasn't that at the 2008 Tour?

 

[sniper]

Re:

Didn't Karl Vannieuwkerke say something about there being a rumour about Sastre's ride up to L'Alpe d'Huez involving a motor?

Yes.
viewtopic.php?p=1905729#p1905729
A part of the conversation
Vannieuwkerke: "They speak about the Tour 2008 where it [motors] is already used (...) Who won that Tour de France?"
Boonen: "Sastre"
Vannieuwkerke: "That name already circulated in the peloton, no?"

Salient.

 

[Tienus]

Re: Re:

IIRC, that AdH time was pretty darn impressive.

What I cannot wrap my head around is how the decision would be made to use a motor in a bike, and how they execute the rest. Do they do it on all races, or just a the main goal of the season? Do they do it on all GC significant stages, or just on a few? Or just a TT? Would a rider even go all out when using a motor? Anything more than 20W is a huge boost, especially if you're already a top 15 rider. How many people would have to know about this?

Main thing for me is that the benefit of a motor would be a bigger than the differences between doping programmes. When a new, untracable drug hits the sport, it doesn't take long for a lot of riders to be on it. Look at cera. I have a hard time imagining some riders using motors and the rest of the peloton not being in it or using motors, especially when it's a long-time rumor.

Lastly, there's a chance for conventional dopers to not want to risk it. But that's a rather small thing and there's probably always people who'd want to risk it.

The largest difference between motor doping and pharmaceuticals is distribution. Any medicine has well established distribution channels and tend to be ubiquitous wherever it's been approved. Just about anyone in the medical field would have an understanding of where and how to procure the drug.

Motors... not so much. I'm guessing motor-doping is following a "boutique" model where very few people are making them and you have to show up with lots of $$$ and an introduction from someone trusted. Although you can buy hidden motor systems online, there are only a handful of publicly known manufacturers. Risky!

John Swanson

Ok, makes sense. I guess it could happen that more people figure out how to do it and it becomes more widespread, but it's definitely a different world from the pharmaceutical world.

I think many can make the bb or hub motor system. The question is who makes those magnetic wheels (assuming they are used in the pro peloton).
Lightweight (brand) products have been used for decades in the pro peloton even when the sponsor did not like it.
https://shop.lightweight.info/en/home/
Since 2014 they have a working prototype with impressive performance. The project received 2,5 million euro from the government.
https://www.technologicvehicles.com/en/green-transportation-news/2836/velocite-the-maglev-electric-bike-that-reaches-100kph#.WJMQ6_nhCUl

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Lightweight (brand) products have been used for decades in the pro peloton even when the sponsor did not like it.
https://shop.lightweight.info/en/home/
Since 2014 they have a working prototype with impressive performance. The project received 2,5 million euro from the government.
https://www.technologicvehicles.com/en/green-transportation-news/2836/velocite-the-maglev-electric-bike-that-reaches-100kph#.WJMQ6_nhCUl

impossibru!

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

...
Lightweight (brand) products have been used for decades in the pro peloton even when the sponsor did not like it.
https://shop.lightweight.info/en/home/
Since 2014 they have a working prototype with impressive performance. The project received 2,5 million euro from the government.
https://www.technologicvehicles.com/en/green-transportation-news/2836/velocite-the-maglev-electric-bike-that-reaches-100kph#.WJMQ6_nhCUl

impossibru!

interesting. BMC have been using Lightweight Disc since Cadel won the Tour until 2015

 

[DanielSong39]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

If Cadel Evans used a motor it was surely in the time trial; where he came up with a once-in-a-lifetime performance to blow by Andy Schleck.

 

[sniper]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

If Cadel Evans used a motor it was surely in the time trial; where he came up with a once-in-a-lifetime performance to blow by Andy Schleck.

Plus in the mountain stage the day before.
See Evans thread for discussion and footage.

 

[Tienus]

nteresting. BMC have been using Lightweight Disc since Cadel won the Tour until 2015

So does Tinkoff but that on its own is not suspiscious. Other riders are using the autobahn wheels too as they are very light, stiff and aerodynamic. I personally think BMC use them for weight saving just like the custom front end.
https://www.bikerumor.com/2015/07/04/tdf2015-tech-bmc-molds-insanely-expensive-one-off-one-piece-custom-tt-fork-and-cockpit/
I think they do some extreme weight saving to compensate for the weight of a motor.

I also think BMC still works with Simon Swart / D2Z. They make similar lightweight bike products.
http://www.drag2zero.co.uk/shop/

 

[proffate]

Re: Re:

Now when and why did SKY swap from the gold standard SRM to the mockery of a power meter Stages?

The official but unpublished "why" is because they're a Shimano sponsored team and want/need to use Shimano cranks. Shimano SRMs uses modified crank arms (at the time, they were even previous gen) and a non-Shimano spider. There were few to no other options for shimano cranks.

Also they had special dual-sided power meters made by Stages, essentially the same strain gauge on both arms, which was not widely publicized either for obvious reasons.

 

[Nicko.]

Re: Re:

Now when and why did SKY swap from the gold standard SRM to the mockery of a power meter Stages?

The official but unpublished "why" is because they're a Shimano sponsored team and want/need to use Shimano cranks. Shimano SRMs uses modified crank arms (at the time, they were even previous gen) and a non-Shimano spider. There were few to no other options for shimano cranks.

Also they had special dual-sided power meters made by Stages, essentially the same strain gauge on both arms, which was not widely publicized either for obvious reasons.

Yeah, for a team anal with analysis and marginal gains/turn every stone, it makes ZERO sense to drop the Shimano cranks by SRM and swap to the random generator Stages.

... unless the purpose of the swap is to fit a ring gear to the crank axle (in line with where the pinion drive slides down).
I mean, SRM wouldn't sell it with a ring gear and they shure would raise an eyebrow if the powermeter came back for service with it on.

Maybe Team Sky needed the sponsor money from Stages?

 

[Tienus]

Walter Godefroot is thinking about Riis while watching Hautacam 2008:
https://www.pressreader.com/belgium/gazet-van-antwerpen-kempen/20080715/282376920349681
"Ik herinner me nog dat mijn kopman op veertig kilometer van de finish een fietswissel had voorzien. We hadden een licht vehikel klaarstaan, met liefst elf kilo druk in de banden. Hoe hoger de druk, hoe minder de wrijving. Riis had dat zelf bedacht en dat plan werd tot in details uitgevoerd."
"I remember that my captain had planned a bike change at forty kilometers from the finish. We had a light vehicle ready, with eleven kilos of pressure in the tires. The higher the pressure, the less the friction. It was Riis himself who came up with that plan and it was carried out in detail."

http://www.climbing-records.com/2014/07/hautacam-top-100-go-big-or-go-home.html
http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/
Bjarne Riis is estimated to have produced 6.8W/kg (480W) on Hautacam when he won the Tour in 1996.

 

[Tom the Engine]

So the picture you're painting now is that Riis himself is a (or the) key figure when it comes to motors - both as a rider and as a manager?

Bjarne Riis is estimated to have produced 6.8W/kg (480W) on Hautacam when he won the Tour in 1996.

These old races are really very entertaining to watch. Riis playing with his competitors like a cat with a ball of wool.. :lol:

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Didn't Karl Vannieuwkerke say something about there being a rumour about Sastre's ride up to L'Alpe d'Huez involving a motor?

Yes.
viewtopic.php?p=1905729#p1905729
A part of the conversation
Vannieuwkerke: "They speak about the Tour 2008 where it [motors] is already used (...) Who won that Tour de France?"
Boonen: "Sastre"
Vannieuwkerke: "That name already circulated in the peloton, no?"

Salient.

Forgot about that.

 

[doperhopper]

We've had cyclocross WC recently - no motor rumors?

 

[Tienus]

So the picture you're painting now is that Riis himself is a (or the) key figure when it comes to motors - both as a rider and as a manager?

Lets not forget first father son motordopers.

As you probably noticed I like to speculate a bit. I'm not convinced he is using a motor but I think there's a good chance.

There are actually more reasons why I am suspiscious wrt Riis and Ullrich. One of them is that they seem to be the ones who introduced bike swaps during time trials with impressive results.

And then there is the disneyland TT where Riis plays Goofy:
After Froome crashing in the first corner you can see Riis falling before the start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DCe4QVO0PE
There is a problem with his bike and he has to start on his spare bike.
He starts on his spare bike but doesnt hear the starting pistol and loses 28s. After 10km he changes back to his original bike and he insists on finishing on that bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFzteK_y1b4

 

[TeflonDub]

Re:

So the picture you're painting now is that Riis himself is a (or the) key figure when it comes to motors - both as a rider and as a manager?

Lets not forget first father son motordopers.

There is a problem with his bike and he has to start on his spare bike.
He starts on his spare bike but doesnt hear the starting pistol and loses 28s. After 10km he changes back to his original bike and he insists on finishing on that bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFzteK_y1b4

Well, if anybody can explain what happens at 0:47 of this clip when Riis has stopped pedaling, is about to put his right foot down when the bike takes off on him and he has to slam the front brake to get a lively rear wheel under control, and if that explanation does not involve an explanation that includes a motor, I am all ears.