Motor doping thread

[ontheroad]

The story of the 53 year old amateur veteran caught using a motor has more holes in it than the Jiffy bag fairytale. He reckons he bought the bike off a guy on the side of the road but didn't know his name or number! Then reckons he didn't use a motor but that if he did then everyonee else in the race must have used one as well! And all this in an amateurs veteran race. Yet guys like Brailsford were claiming that he was shocked as recently as last year when he heard that Femke was caught with the motor.

If we thought there was an omertà around the use of PEDs I think it's minuscule in comparison to the motor issue which even some of the more anti doping journalists appear not to want to go near.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

The guy with the device on the motorbike at the Tour was using thermal imaging, can't remember whether he was UCI or ASO though, the commentary team said the bike had been moving up and down the peleton most of the stage scanning bikes for areas on them that might be emitting heat from a suspicious source.
It seems a more efficient way of doing it than the ipad/magnetic field route as there's no reason to wait for the stage to end and spend 5 hours checking bikes, also suspicious bike swaps can be investigated straight away and riders can be caught red handed so to speak.

If he is UCI, he is not independent, so the thing is probably not switched on.

If he is ASO, well they and the French government ( who give $$$$s to ASO for TdF) will not want their showpiece event and biggest tourist advert sullied with motors in bikes, so not independent.

So a guy on a motorbike might as well be holding an empty shoebox and pointing it at bikes!

Well that's just it. Thermal camera, sure. But who interprets the data and flags a positive for possible motor? And then what's the protocol for identifying the rider and the bike? Can you imagine the tribunal that presents a thermal image? Rider says: that's not me. Prove it is. Case dismissed. That's not my bike. Case dismissed,

What if the camera guy flags everything as suspicious? Or nothing? The whole thing is stupid as is evidenced by the latest guy to get popped. All kinds of ridiculous defense, but so far we're lacking of any evidence. Show a picture of the motor at least. Maybe an iPad screenshot?

John Swanson

X-ray

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-uses-x-ray-machine-to-search-for-mechanical-doping-at-the-tour-de-france/

the UCI, Matt, that organisation who ignores doping is going to catch motor users at the biggest event on its calendar when they have the biggest audience and consign the sport to the final joke that most of the world thinks it already is!

Keep drinking the Koolaid.

 

[jmdirt]

I apologize if someone already said this, but if its a motor in the seat tube, its really easy to pop the seat post out and have a look.

 

[jilbiker]

There is no doubt that Motor doping is the biggest form of doping going on today. Forget the chemical doping that is so yesterday's news. All of them, the big guys are using it. Sagan, Landa, Froome etc.

Its now "normal" for riders of TDF to go to Vuelta as if they did nothing.....well they are really doing nothing with these motor thing. I don't know how or why UCI will continue to quiet...wait they were quiet about LA for years despite all the outcry until a dissatisfied rider was popped and even then it took an outside body to give us the Reasoned Decision

I think we need another reason decision, we cannot be waiting for UCI

 

[ScienceIsCool]

He had the motor all along, he just lost the fat...

John Swanson

 

[terribleone]

Re:

One of my favourite posters on here John. Would love to see someone back your motor idea. We'd all keep it a secret where we heard about it first... :lol:

He had the motor all along, he just lost the fat...

John Swanson

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

BTW, I'm currently unemployed. I know I'd be sorely tempted if someone offered me $50-100k to design and build a system for them and keep my mouth shut about it.

John Swanson

Science is cool :lol: Seriously speaken, stop blustering and build the hub motor if you can. Otherwise you are just a pub talker.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Seriously speaken, cut the crap.

 

[Random Direction]

We could clinic crowd source John is Cool to build a motor and put it in a bike, and then run a series of tests on the bike to see how much time gain / decreased power output on hills it creates and for how long, as well as which motor doping tests it passes and fails (adding: it could also be used to determine what riding styles are used when using a motor). I'm sure that there is a pro, neo-pro, high level amateur, or fatty master in the clinic who could then test it out in real races.

Any proceeds could then be returned to the clinic for beneficial uses such as funding investigative cycling journalism, building more motor systems to move up Clinic 13 members position in races, beers to soften up Wiggins before a Facebook live 'confession' , or shares in beet root juice companies.

John - how much would such a motor cost to build and install? (serious question - I don't have the money myself to fund it though but someone on this board probably does - just have to figure out who will put their hand up (Chewie must be getting rich as a lawyer now...)

 

[sniper]

All so bloody impatient. Give it a few weeks.
Watch this place.
Tuesday.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

We could clinic crowd source John is Cool to build a motor and put it in a bike, and then run a series of tests on the bike to see how much time gain / decreased power output on hills it creates and for how long, as well as which motor doping tests it passes and fails (adding: it could also be used to determine what riding styles are used when using a motor). I'm sure that there is a pro, neo-pro, high level amateur, or fatty master in the clinic who could then test it out in real races.

Any proceeds could then be returned to the clinic for beneficial uses such as funding investigative cycling journalism, building more motor systems to move up Clinic 13 members position in races, beers to soften up Wiggins before a Facebook live 'confession' , or shares in beet root juice companies.

John - how much would such a motor cost to build and install? (serious question - I don't have the money myself to fund it though but someone on this board probably does - just have to figure out who will put their hand up (Chewie must be getting rich as a lawyer now...)

Haha! From experience, the following timeline is usually true:

- Raw materials for experimenting are cheap. In this case a couple thousand dollars to set up a lab and get going.
- Initial testing is also quick and cheap - in this case getting an Arduino and some other bits to create a motor driver and make an off the shelf motor spins to spec.
- Work on instrumentation
- Use the initial arduino build to test a custom motor that could fit in a hub. Unexpected problems means you have to iterate until you meet spec
- Build a bench top prototype that meets mechanical specs. Iterate out your problems.
- Build a road worthy version of hardware, electronics and software. First round of total system integration.
- Beta testing
- Pre-sales and marketing with a full on roll-out

So yeah, give a guy like me $100,000 and you've got something on the road in a year with some uncertainties in deliverables. Build a team of me, an electrical engineer and a mechanical engineer and you're in Beta in less than a year (almost guaranteed) for ~$150,000 with likely overruns to $50,000 to meet deadline specs.

You could do it for *way* cheaper, but the result might not be production ready or meet all the specs. Especially if one of the specs is to defeat the UCI.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

I should clarify that the added timeline and cost is usually due to feature creep, such as adding a cell phone connection and the added encryption. That's a project in itself even though it's just to turn the moor on and off or gather some metrics. The other issue is usually due to adding instrumentation and algorithmics. Want the motor to provide a % power due to rpm and gear selection? Doable. It'll take time to design, implement, test, and validate though.

The basic system would be a barebones hub-based motor that could be turned on or off via mechanical means with little to no smarts. That's the cheap spec sheet that will come under budget and ahead of schedule. That let's you go from bench --> integration --> beta in no time.

John Swanson

 

[Tonton]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

It's an interesting discussion and I lean a lot...I'm not too tech and not using that stuff. But I'm starting to understand the "nuts and bolts" of this. I remember watching a demo of an electric bike 30+ years ago on French TV but never thought that it was realistic for pros. I thought that there was a very solid line: doping is somewhat OK, riding a Harley not so much. Times have changed. A guy older than me doing that is a shocker...the dude has issues, trying to prove something and lying to himself. Sad .

 

[MarkvW]

Re:

All so bloody impatient. Give it a few weeks.
Watch this place.
Tuesday.

Super-LOL. Hoggie, you seeing this?

 

[Random Direction]

Thanks John. What I read is that it is eminently doable for what is realistically a small sum of money in the technology development world. Some high level mechanical and electrical engineering expertise is required, along with (likely) machinist skills and a cycling background. Basically even small component shops would have these skill sets on staff or easily available to them. I know one guy how has all four areas and used to work in bicycling components.

All it would take to build a high quality system is will from someone who has a couple hundred extra thousand dollars to spend. Some masters might do that just because. Others would do it for ROI. This would be either to make more profit than expenses for a production line motor, or for competitive advantage at the highest levels. For the latter, the wireless systems etc would be important, but likely a weak link as anti-hackng probably hasn't been incorporated. If not, then the systems would be vulnerable to intentional or non intentional interference. IF there is a hacker in the clinic (Floyd?), how easy would it be to set up wireless interference at, say, the first corner of a TT or at the bus after the finish?

If anyone has 150 K to spare, please fund John to build this engine and profile it on cyclingnews - if a clinician can do it, the big teams absolutely are.

And, if you are a hacker, just do it.

 

[Tienus]

I remember watching a demo of an electric bike 30+ years ago on French TV but never thought that it was realistic for pros. I thought that there was a very solid line: doping is somewhat OK, riding a Harley not so much. Times have changed.

Times have changed even though cycling is still a circus.
http://www.stealx.nl/contents/nl/d19131_The_Story_of_the_1904_Tour_de_France.html

Would this years tour contenders have cheated by riding in a car if they knew they would get away with it?

 

[sniper]

Re:

I remember watching a demo of an electric bike 30+ years ago on French TV but never thought that it was realistic for pros. I thought that there was a very solid line: doping is somewhat OK, riding a Harley not so much. Times have changed.

Times have changed even though cycling is still a circus.
http://www.stealx.nl/contents/nl/d19131_The_Story_of_the_1904_Tour_de_France.html

Would this years tour contenders have cheated by riding in a car if they knew they would get away with it?

I do believe proriders would take all sorts of dope, modify their genes, fix and sell matches, forge documents, take short cuts, jump on cars and trains, threaten and bully conpetitors, hack into servers, fake urine samples, invent nonexisting diseases, fabricate faxes, bribe officials, and steal eachothers equipment in order to win.
But I really don't think a prorider would build a motor in their bike.
That's just one ethical step too far.
A female junior crosser with a criminal dad, or a rich 50+ masters racer with a sore back, sure. But a pro? Naah. No way.

Just kidding of course.
The "motors is one ethical step too far" argument is among the most naive arguments I've ever heard. Up there with "looked him in the eyes".

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Thanks John. What I read is that it is eminently doable for what is realistically a small sum of money in the technology development world. Some high level mechanical and electrical engineering expertise is required, along with (likely) machinist skills and a cycling background. Basically even small component shops would have these skill sets on staff or easily available to them. I know one guy how has all four areas and used to work in bicycling components.

All it would take to build a high quality system is will from someone who has a couple hundred extra thousand dollars to spend. Some masters might do that just because. Others would do it for ROI. This would be either to make more profit than expenses for a production line motor, or for competitive advantage at the highest levels. For the latter, the wireless systems etc would be important, but likely a weak link as anti-hackng probably hasn't been incorporated. If not, then the systems would be vulnerable to intentional or non intentional interference. IF there is a hacker in the clinic (Floyd?), how easy would it be to set up wireless interference at, say, the first corner of a TT or at the bus after the finish?

If anyone has 150 K to spare, please fund John to build this engine and profile it on cyclingnews - if a clinician can do it, the big teams absolutely are.

And, if you are a hacker, just do it.

That's the other thing. A large portion of that outlay is to salaries and renting space. If you've got a couple of guys with talent, a garage and some time you could do this on the cheap. Then the biggest costs are the iteration cycles where you design - manufacture - test - analyze until you have a prototype that meets specs. Each iteration costs you time and money. I could see a group without motor experience having to iterate motor designs quite a bit before they meet spec. Fortunately, you could machine a number of designs at once and hand wind them. And you have a large number of options when it comes to "machining" ranging from wire EDM to 3-D printing to CNC. Pick the quickest and cheapest. Also $10k will buy you a lot of consulting from a motor designer.

Why yes, I have had some experience with this in different contexts...

John Swanson

 

[Nicko.]

Re:

Thanks John. What I read is that it is eminently doable for what is realistically a small sum of money in the technology development world. Some high level mechanical and electrical engineering expertise is required, along with (likely) machinist skills and a cycling background. Basically even small component shops would have these skill sets on staff or easily available to them. I know one guy how has all four areas and used to work in bicycling components.

All it would take to build a high quality system is will from someone who has a couple hundred extra thousand dollars to spend. Some masters might do that just because. Others would do it for ROI. This would be either to make more profit than expenses for a production line motor, or for competitive advantage at the highest levels. For the latter, the wireless systems etc would be important, but likely a weak link as anti-hackng probably hasn't been incorporated. If not, then the systems would be vulnerable to intentional or non intentional interference. IF there is a hacker in the clinic (Floyd?), how easy would it be to set up wireless interference at, say, the first corner of a TT or at the bus after the finish?

If anyone has 150 K to spare, please fund John to build this engine and profile it on cyclingnews - if a clinician can do it, the big teams absolutely are.

And, if you are a hacker, just do it.

The thing is, John has not shown that he can produce even a conceptual design of a hub motor that fits in a road hub.
Start here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2062155#p2062155 and notice his constantly moving goal posts...

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Thanks John. What I read is that it is eminently doable for what is realistically a small sum of money in the technology development world. Some high level mechanical and electrical engineering expertise is required, along with (likely) machinist skills and a cycling background. Basically even small component shops would have these skill sets on staff or easily available to them. I know one guy how has all four areas and used to work in bicycling components.

All it would take to build a high quality system is will from someone who has a couple hundred extra thousand dollars to spend. Some masters might do that just because. Others would do it for ROI. This would be either to make more profit than expenses for a production line motor, or for competitive advantage at the highest levels. For the latter, the wireless systems etc would be important, but likely a weak link as anti-hackng probably hasn't been incorporated. If not, then the systems would be vulnerable to intentional or non intentional interference. IF there is a hacker in the clinic (Floyd?), how easy would it be to set up wireless interference at, say, the first corner of a TT or at the bus after the finish?

If anyone has 150 K to spare, please fund John to build this engine and profile it on cyclingnews - if a clinician can do it, the big teams absolutely are.

And, if you are a hacker, just do it.

The thing is, John has not shown that he can produce even a conceptual design of a hub motor that fits in a road hub.
Start here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2062155#p2062155 and notice his constantly moving goal posts...

Check and mate. You win. Can't be done. Definitely hasn't been done (definitely don't look at skateboard in-wheel motors done by tinkerers). No way a splash of cash could do better than that.

John Swanson

 

[Nicko.]

WTF?
A skateboard hub motor doesn't need a gearbox, can be ~5 times bigger and there are four (4) hubs available.
Please, don't ever use a skateboard as reference for a road bike, road hub motor...

 

[sniper]

He just said "dont look at skateboards.

Again. Rear hub motors exist. We've seen evidence of it a year ago and we're going to see more evidence in the very near future.
The fact you and a few others can't get your head around it is another issue.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

WTF?
A skateboard hub motor doesn't need a gearbox, can be ~5 times bigger and there are four (4) hubs available.
Please, don't ever use a skateboard as reference for a road bike, road hub motor...

A skateboard wheel is five times the size of a hub... Oh wait. A freehub is roughly 40-45 mm diameter and a skateboard wheel is 50-60 mm diameter. The *two* motors that go into a skateboard system have roughly 5-7 mm of wheel around the motor. That gives a 40 mm diameter motor. Those are powerful enough to push someone around at 25 km/hr with no assistance.

Pray tell why you couldn't get 25-40 Watts out of a hub motor.

John Swanson

 

[GreasyChain]

Re:

He just said "dont look at skateboards.

Again. Rear hub motors exist. We've seen evidence of it a year ago and we're going to see more evidence in the very near future.
The fact you and a few others can't get your head around it is another issue.

There was no evidence of a working hub motor. Just as there is nothing more than some weirdo's fantasy about using magnets in the wheels and elecromagnets in the chain stays, or possibly the brakes to drive them.

Putting a motor inside the bike for a professional is pointless. Added weight, added drag, high probability that the thing will either jam or go off at the wrong time and there is no possibility of getting away with it when you are inevitably caught.

Face facts. It's all bollocks.

 

[Random Direction]

The arguments above would be countered by a working open source prototype, or strengthened by a failed effort.

Without proving things out the discussion will simply continue to be one side discussing practicalities and the other waving arms and saying it's not possible.

The thing is, it has been proven possible, people have been busted for it. The policy guy in me then sees the arm waving arguments to be akin to lobbying arguments that it can't be possible for diesel to pollute more because credible tests are used.in other words, bullocks.

Why are people distracting attention and using ad hominem arguments as a first line of recourse?