Motor doping thread

[Nicko.]

Re: Re:

Edited by King Boonen: Quoted post has been moderated.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

There's no way you can fit a motor into a Dura-Ace hub shell. Just a basic calculation of the void available leaves you with just 17000mm3 of space to put it in. Even 17000mm3 of solid steel you're looking at a maximum of around 200g motor with gearing. Varjas claims his 200K Euro hub weighs 800g. You're claiming you can make it 3x smaller/lighter with no loss of usability and power and do it for just 100K Euro is just too far-fetched. You would at the very minimum need to not only re-develop the way a motor works, but do it with materials we don't even have existing in theory to do it. Add to that, you've still got to make it invisible to IR, EMF Detectors & X-Ray and invisibly take the power to the hub from the battery in the seat stays.

 

[poupou]

Now a such motor has to be invisble to detection... only if it'd not possible to avoid such kind of testing..by fraud, tips,...

 

[sniper]

Kingboonen, not sure why you're issuing a warning to me and are editing my posts.
As I've stated very clearly (and you seem to have missed it), there *is* proof, apart from Roglic, and we're going to see it early September.
Not sure why you'd want me to keep this information to myself.

That you think Roglic glowing hub+left seat post is all "utter balls", as opposed to clear evidence of a motor, yet fail to provide an alternative non-motor explanation for it, is a different matter altogether.
In the spirit of this thread and the brilliant discussion on recent pages, why not give it a try.
So glowing rear hub + left seat tube.
Non-motor explanations wanted.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Kingboonen, not sure why you're issuing a warning to me and are editing my posts.
As I've stated very clearly (and you seem to have missed it), there *is* proof, apart from Roglic, and we're going to see it early September.
Not sure why you'd want me to keep this information to myself.

That you think Roglic glowing hub+left seat post is all "utter balls", as opposed to clear evidence of a motor, yet fail to provide an alternative non-motor explanation for it, is a different matter altogether.
In the spirit of this thread and the brilliant discussion on recent pages, why not give it a try.
So glowing rear hub + left seat tube.
Non-motor explanations wanted.

When the proof is presented you are free to say it is fact. Until it is presented it is your opinion. This has been pointed out to you before and this will be the last time. Do not claim something as fact unless you can show it is fact.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Kingboonen, not sure why you're issuing a warning to me and are editing my posts.
As I've stated very clearly (and you seem to have missed it), there *is* proof, apart from Roglic, and we're going to see it early September.
Not sure why you'd want me to keep this information to myself.

That you think Roglic glowing hub+left seat post is all "utter balls", as opposed to clear evidence of a motor, yet fail to provide an alternative non-motor explanation for it, is a different matter altogether.
In the spirit of this thread and the brilliant discussion on recent pages, why not give it a try.
So glowing rear hub + left seat tube.
Non-motor explanations wanted.

When the proof is presented you are free to say it is fact. Until it is presented it is your opinion. This has been pointed out to you before and this will be the last time. Do not claim something as fact unless you can show it is fact.

It's a good thing you weren't moderating yet when people like Race Radio were providing salient insider intel and previews re the Lance-USPS case.
But point taken, I'll be more cautious.

Now for Roglic, care to give it a try? Glowing rear hub + seat tube, non-motor explanation.
I can't state "fact" without showing it, fair enough, but you can state "utter balls" without showing it?

 

[samhocking]

Roglics rear hub is the same temperature of his front wheel, which is the same temperature of the rear wheel of the rider in front of him. The camera has just a 10 degree range shown. i.e. Orange is only 5 degrees warmer than black. The fact the image has never surfaced in high resolution and temperature of the riders wheels and tyres in front measure the same temperature as Roglic's rear hub is pretty conclusive it's not worth using as evidence.

 

[sniper]

1. The wheels' road friction causing heat has been mentioned tons of times now. That's why all wheels from all riders in that segment have roughly the same heat signal. Try to keep up.
2. For the n-th time: you need to explain rear hub + left seat tube. Not just rear hub.

 

[samhocking]

It's backed up by their very own image of a motor they 'know' exists too, because parameters are set to what you expect to see and want to use to ensure the image really shows temperature differences correctly and believably. i.e.

Viewing window is covering over 20 degrees, not just 10 for Roglic's bike.
The motor is correctly hotter than the rim and the tyres, not the same as for Roglic
The temperatures of what you expect to not have a motor like the frame and rims equate to the difference you would expect when cross-referencing with the temperature range key.

 

[sniper]

Sigh. Rear hub + left seat tube please.

The wheel colour has been discussed. Has no bearing on anything, not even according to TomTheEngine.
Keep up.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

1. The wheels' road friction causing heat has been mentioned tons of times now. That's why all wheels from all riders have roughly the same heat signal. Try to keep up.
2. For the n-th time: you need to explain rear hub + left seat tube. Not just rear hub.

See image above. Why are those tyres 'NOT' the same temperature as the motor. Tyres really don't heat up on a bicycle, there's simply not enough friction riding in a straight line.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

1. The wheels' road friction causing heat has been mentioned tons of times now. That's why all wheels from all riders have roughly the same heat signal. Try to keep up.
2. For the n-th time: you need to explain rear hub + left seat tube. Not just rear hub.

See image above. Why are those tyres 'NOT' the same temperature as the motor. Tyres really don't heat up on a bicycle, there's simply not enough friction riding in a straight line.

Jeebus.
You don't even know who's on that photo, do you?
Everything you post on this topic suggests you haven't watched the doc or read the relevant threads.
Watch the doc, read the threads, then come back.

 

[samhocking]

What photo? I've not posted any photo of a rider?

 

[sniper]

So once more:
All wheels of all bikes of all riders passing the key point have the same heat signature.
Only one of the bikes additionally has a glowing rear hub plus left seat post.

The photo you posted with the crank assist motor is not a photo of a rider passing the key point. It is therefore not relevant to the analysis of Roglic' glowing rear hub + left seat tube.

 

[samhocking]

I haven't posted a photo of a rider? Where?

 

[sniper]

see previous post.
read it.
then address it.

 

[sniper]

Or rather don't address it. Seeing as you keep going in circles.

I'd be more interested in KingBoonen's explanation why he thinks the glowing rear hub plus seat post is not indicative of a motor.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Kingboonen, not sure why you're issuing a warning to me and are editing my posts.
As I've stated very clearly (and you seem to have missed it), there *is* proof, apart from Roglic, and we're going to see it early September.
Not sure why you'd want me to keep this information to myself.

That you think Roglic glowing hub+left seat post is all "utter balls", as opposed to clear evidence of a motor, yet fail to provide an alternative non-motor explanation for it, is a different matter altogether.
In the spirit of this thread and the brilliant discussion on recent pages, why not give it a try.
So glowing rear hub + left seat tube.
Non-motor explanations wanted.

When the proof is presented you are free to say it is fact. Until it is presented it is your opinion. This has been pointed out to you before and this will be the last time. Do not claim something as fact unless you can show it is fact.

It's a good thing you weren't moderating yet when people like Race Radio were providing salient insider intel and previews re the Lance-USPS case.
But point taken, I'll be more cautious.

Now for Roglic, care to give it a try? Glowing rear hub + seat tube, non-motor explanation.
I can't state "fact" without showing it, fair enough, but you can state "utter balls" without showing it?

You are free to provide "salient insider intel" as long as you present it as such.

 

[samhocking]

Post the photo of Roglic you're talking about with the calibration scale against it and lets see what your point is. I've watched the documentary several times and I simply can't see how the data visualisation techniques can be anything else that simple distortion.

 

[sniper]

Sure.
Let's move on.

 

[samhocking]

Post the photo/video you're talking about of Roglic's glowing motor and seat stay. I'm at work and the documentary is on my home laptop.

 

[sniper]

Same here. No worries, agreed to disagree.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

1. The wheels' road friction causing heat has been mentioned tons of times now. That's why all wheels from all riders have roughly the same heat signal. Try to keep up.
2. For the n-th time: you need to explain rear hub + left seat tube. Not just rear hub.

See image above. Why are those tyres 'NOT' the same temperature as the motor. Tyres really don't heat up on a bicycle, there's simply not enough friction riding in a straight line.

Hysteresis losses due to casing deformation is the second highest form of drag after aerodynamics losses. Fortunately those are linear with speed. At 30 km/hr you're losing ~15 Watts per tire. See here: http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

In fact, this could be one of the most unexplored areas of bicycling science that could benefit from some R&D.

John Swanson

 

[samhocking]

Best not use thermal imaging then if tyres are gonnna show up like motors lol? End of the day, when the sun comes out, the road is hot and that is conducting far more than 15w into your tyres. On a cold day without sunshine, the thermal loss will be greater than the gain, so the tyre will never get warm anyway. Just ride a bike in a straight line and use a temp gun on the tyre before and after, they really don't heat up at all.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

I just showed that a naive implementation puts 30 Watts in that envelope.

John Swanson

I think I have asked you nicely seven times now to show how you would generate the torque, configure the gearbox, handle the temperature, interact with the freewheeling cassette, avoid public breakdown, etc etc, all within a non-conspicuous road hub.

You keep doing a volumetric scaling of generic motors, never adressing the details (where the devil resides).

edit: removed insult. sorry.

Yes, yes. You want me to design something to an arbitrary spec. But that's not how you do R&D. First you do a feasibility study. Check. The physics is feasible enough. Then you have to do some of that R before you do your D. Then it's an iterative cycle of R & D.

First up is that there's lots of areas to explore:

- The motor has to work for only ~100 hours of operation. Not 100,000 hours like a generic industrial motor. What can you sacrifice?
- How are typical motors constructed? Time to reverse engineer
- Materials! How do you best use them? A glaring example is to sacrifice weight and use tungsten everywhere. That would allow you to shrink the thickness of everything and open up some volume.
- What happens if you ditch the gearbox and way over-drive the motor to get the torque you need?
- Again materials! What happens if you ditch copper wiring and go for performance rather than cost?

The name of the game is to gather empirical data that isn't publicly available anywhere. Use that data to generate trends such as more stator poles = better; or 320 V with gold wiring is the peak of performance; or wound rotors and stators > any permanent magnets or reluctance. Basically, find the peak of performance for every design element.

Now sit down and generate your first integrated motor design. Again, for bench testing and not necessarily something you'll slip into a DA hub.

Test and iterate design until spec is met.

Time for Beta! Build up your design into a hub and get out on the road. Attach sensors everywhere and start breaking the thing.

After a few iterations of that you have a product.

And just so you know, I do have experience in an R&D environment doing exactly these kinds of things. The biggest one was inkjet printing. A small team of us started from scratch and in a couple of years we demonstrated full color printing at 300 dpi at a paper speed of 10 m/s. Scalable to a 3 meter paper width. That tech became the Kodak Stream product line.

John Swanson