Motor doping thread

[ScienceIsCool]

Remember folks, 60 Watts is ~0.8 W/kg boost for most riders. That's difference between 5.4 W/kg top third of the pack and 6.2 W/kg winning stages. A 60 Watt geared motor sourced off DH-Gate, TVC Mall, Alibaba, etc is 1 inch diameter and 2 inches long and costs less than $20 delivered. Tell me again why you couldn't build one into a hub...

John Swanson

 

[MarkvW]

Re:

Remember folks, 60 Watts is ~0.8 W/kg boost for most riders. That's difference between 5.4 W/kg top third of the pack and 6.2 W/kg winning stages. A 60 Watt geared motor sourced off DH-Gate, TVC Mall, Alibaba, etc is 1 inch diameter and 2 inches long and costs less than $20 delivered. Tell me again why you couldn't build one into a hub...

John Swanson

I was thinking about the supposed wheel/magnet motors. Any thoughts on that?

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

Someone is keeping the Producers from saying or publishing everything. Maybe a updated story is coming.

I think Varjas has a plan, it cannot just end this way.
and there is a French investigation going on.
it's not finished with the CBS tv show at all.

at the moment it looks more like that he is trying to remind someone that he has Pandora box and will open it if he will not get the money... .

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

Lemond gets jealous whenever someone wins their third Tour. he was happy being a shill on Eurosport and taking car rides with Merckx and Indurain on the Champs. but whatever, if he manages blows the lid off this he'd be a hero.

Greg already is a hero, bro. He was right about Lance and Postal and he paid a pretty significant price for that. He deserves a lot of slack if he thinks there is an issue here.

The piece was largely a puff piece, maybe a setup for a real story or something. I didn't take it as particularly "anti-Lance" so much as the key part of the story was a $2m retainer paid for exclusivity during Lance's run. There are only a few people in cycling that could make that kind of payment and presumably they won races with it, right? There are also only a few people won enough to really justify that kind of expense around that time too, Lance, Cippo, some classics and one day guys. I'll also ask, if Lance had this stuff, do you think he'd not use it? It just seems like basic journalism to look in to a potential link. Or maybe basic marketing to suggest one, the overall tone was that there is a contemporary target and they did throw some shade at Sky.

Honestly though, $2m is too expensive for cyclists.. Now Thom Wiesel or Bill Ackman? They fancy themselves competitive bike riders, in some capacity, and it seems cheap for them.

Varjas is a con man, and you are attempting to infer facts based on his word. That is idiotic.

LeMond is a bitter narcissist who will do anything to discredit other English speaking Tour winners even as he abides by omerta about his own time racing.

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

Lemond gets jealous whenever someone wins their third Tour. he was happy being a shill on Eurosport and taking car rides with Merckx and Indurain on the Champs. but whatever, if he manages blows the lid off this he'd be a hero.

Greg already is a hero, bro. He was right about Lance and Postal and he paid a pretty significant price for that. He deserves a lot of slack if he thinks there is an issue here.

The piece was largely a puff piece, maybe a setup for a real story or something. I didn't take it as particularly "anti-Lance" so much as the key part of the story was a $2m retainer paid for exclusivity during Lance's run. There are only a few people in cycling that could make that kind of payment and presumably they won races with it, right? There are also only a few people won enough to really justify that kind of expense around that time too, Lance, Cippo, some classics and one day guys. I'll also ask, if Lance had this stuff, do you think he'd not use it? It just seems like basic journalism to look in to a potential link. Or maybe basic marketing to suggest one, the overall tone was that there is a contemporary target and they did throw some shade at Sky.

Honestly though, $2m is too expensive for cyclists.. Now Thom Wiesel or Bill Ackman? They fancy themselves competitive bike riders, in some capacity, and it seems cheap for them.

Varjas is a con man, and you are attempting to infer facts based on his word. That is idiotic.

LeMond is a bitter narcissist who will do anything to discredit other English speaking Tour winners even as he abides by omerta about his own time racing.

Maybe...but we know the motors are out there, we know cycling is an anything goes sewer, and we know other intelligent observers have come to the same conclusion. You are using a strawman argument, and it isn't very persuasive.

The motors are out there. The only questions are "how many?" and "what kinds?"

 

[Night Rider]

i get the impression Lemond is not in it only because of armstrong.
But regardless, I'm not sure why you would discourage him.
If he wants to (help) blow the lid off, I'm all for.

I don't think he is either, but it's like he can't help himself. If he was prepared to let the Lance aspect go then he would definitely be of use.

He's put his trust in the wrong guy though (Varjas).

That's certainly fair enough.

But like semper fidelis and pastronef me too I don't think it's over just yet.
At the very least Lemond has played a big part in getting the ball rolling and I think he deserves credit for that.

It's not over for sure. Not if you believe motors have been used which quite a lot of us believe they have been. It remains to be seen whether CBS or Varjas are going to lead us anywhere near that. I doubt based on Varjas history that it's going to come voluntarily from him, and based on the last couple of years I doubt he has a plan other than promoting his business.

Maybe CBS had intel of him playing both sides of the field all along? That's about the only way they redeem themselves. And about the only thing that would explain his flip flops on pretty much everything.

 

[gooner]

No Lance fan, yet this seems a bit vague in throwing mud at him.

I don't think it's right the way this has been broadcast. Many less well informed will just see the headline of questions being put to Lance and Sky and take it as substantial knowledge that they were to up their eyeballs in it.

This Vargas guy is out for publicity.

I don't think Betsy should be coming out with coded accusations either. It leaves a lot open to interpretation.

From what I've read about this 60 mins, I'm none the wiser. Since it relates to Armstrong, Daniel Friebe made a good point yesterday, Ferrari and his son had their phones tapped and the authorities were following their communications. There was nothing came out of that with motors.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Sky mechanic Gary Blem said the F8 was so light he had to put fishing weights in the BB!

Again when it comes to Sky things don't add up. And when that happens it points to cheating.

maybe useless reply, but Blem is talking about the road/climbing F8 bike. NOT the TT bikes who are heavier than them, usualy above 8 kg for a TT bike.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

For what it's worth, a major kudos to Greg here.
It may or may not be about Lance for him, but to be honest I couldnt care less.
He has put himself in the cross fire here, when really he didn't need to.
He must be absolutely convinced and gutted by it. Hi involvement is very important, first because he's close to the peloton, second because his reputation is as impeccable as it gets and so it's not as easy to discredit him.

That's as nonsensical as it gets.
- It does matter whether it's mainly about a personal feud or not. Motivations and possible conflicts of interests matter.
- Conviction alone is nothing admirable (without presenting good arguments for it). Strong conviction without reason is dangerous in general.
- Relying on impeccable reputation is bollocks as is argument by authority to not get discredited.
- Closeness to the peloton requires to present stronger evidence than an outsider. Otherwise it's worthless.

I really wish that this will turn out well for Greg someday and he's proven right because I respect him a lot. But in this CBS documentary he looked awful. I felt bad for him.

Probably worth adding:

–Citing someone's reputation after you've spent untold time and energy publicly trying to tarnish it with rumor and innuendo really looks bad as an argument.

To the 60 Minutes piece, I agree it's not a good look at all for Greg getting mixed up in this without anything concrete. Not sure what motivates him on these issues. Not worth speculating about.

Citing someone's reputation after you've spent untold time and energy publicly trying to tarnish it with rumor and innuendo really looks bad as an argument.
Well said Red ! It really puzzled me to read Sniper. His constant allegations against Greg were always so far out, reaching the ridiculous level at times, that I was convinced he was a relative of Armstrong :lol: .

You seem confused.
How can someone think Greg doped, yet praise him for his work on motors. I realize that that is incompatible with your black vs. white good vs. evil world view and I apologize for any feelings of insecurity it may have bestowed upon you.
Its far out man. :lol:

 

[sniper]

Christian "motors? what motors?" Vande Velde's bike in 2009:

In spite of the 100g or so of added weight relative to the standard 7900 package, Vande Velde’s complete bike still comes in under the UCI weight limit at 6.57kg (14.48lb) when fitted with Zipp 202 carbon tubular wheels. Depending on the particular configuration of the day, Shanks plans to wrap up short sections of chain links in bubble wrap and drop them into the seat tube to make the difference if needed.
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pro-bike-christian-vande-veldes-garmin-slipstream-felt-f1-sl-20463/

This goes back to Tienus' point about Sagan's bike.
viewtopic.php?p=2057149#p2057149

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Sky mechanic Gary Blem said the F8 was so light he had to put fishing weights in the BB!

Again when it comes to Sky things don't add up. And when that happens it points to cheating.

maybe useless reply, but Blem is talking about the road/climbing F8 bike. NOT the TT bikes who are heavier than them, usualy above 8 kg for a TT bike.

Christian Knees F8 (57.5 XL size) with C75mm deep sections, alloy bars and stem & Di2 is 7.32kg as weighed by GCN.
Simply switching him to say the C24 wheels for a mountain stage and the bike is immediately 6.9kg. Another 100g is very easy to loose, although 6.9kg is kind of where you want to be for climbing days. On a small or medium frame the mechanics would definitely have to put weights in. Typically mechanics add weights, so the climbing weight will be 100-200g over the UCI 6.8kg limit as a safety margin for using other lighter components. There's no benefit to riding on the weight limit on the flat and weights are often glued inside the frame and never touched again. You want the deep sections for the sail-effect and strength for curb hopping and potholes the lighter wheels are not so good at.
For a TT bike, there will be no emphasis on saving weight unless the course borders on being slow-enough for the aero benefits to be outweighed by the weight (usually a simply calculation these days). Most TT bikes will be around 9-10kg fully-kitted out.

 

[sniper]

Detailed interview with Blem.
Blem speaks about light friggin bikes. Speaks about TTs.
No mention whatsoever about most TT bikes being "around 9-10kg fully-kitted out."
You have a link to that Sam? And even if so, how you explain Sky's bikes being 800 grams heavier than the average? .

Plenty of eyebrowraisers here:

"In the years of them [Pinarello] sponsoring Team Sky there's been a lot of a lot progression with the bikes and equipment. I think before Team Sky there was a bit of a dead spot in the industry where there wasn't a lot of development going on. Now it's really fast paced."

"Pinarello are totally on top of it. They had Jaguar come in to assist with developing the new Dogma F8. It's a lot lighter and 46 percent more aerodynamic than the previous model."

...
"There are four bicycle mechanics and a Jaguar mechanic. There are a lot of bumper bashings and crushes in the cars following the riders. We need a mechanic to repair the car after every stage.

...
"Time trials are super stressful. This year we flew in a private jet to where the time trial was to be held. We did some testing there and we saw that we would need 58 chainrings. Shimano gave us some prototype chain rings. We then flew back to the Tour of France which started two days later. That's the difference that Team Sky makes."
...

"With the new F8, I have to add weight to the bike."

"I buy fishing weights from the local pawn shop in Pretoria. I put the weights into a glove and put the weights into the bottom bracket."

"It's harder to get a bike up to the legal limit than it is to drop the weight of a bike"

"The weight that you add impacts the performance of the bike so you have to put the weight as low as possible on the bike which is the bottom bracket." https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/_/articles/interviews/interview-gary-blem-team-sky-head-mechanic-r3804

 

[samhocking]

Froomes' 2015 Vuelta TT Bolide size large was 8.52kg as weighed by GCN without bottles or head unit. Switch out the UKSI bars and more typical disc and tri wheels and it would be between 9kg to 9.5kg. There are heavier frames and lighter TT frames of course than the 2015 Bolide. e.g. Contadors 2017 Trek Speed Concept in size small is 7.9kg (Contadors mechanic claimed weight so add 10% lol) with a traditional spoked front wheel and lightweight autobahn disc. Add Pro tri front and Pro Extreme disc as Froome rides to Contadors and it would be about 8.2kg to 8.3kg. 200-300g between manufacturers and a small and large TT frame is about the money for Trek SC & Pinarello's older Bolide with same wheelset.

2015 Froomes 8.52kg (old Bolide L)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc3zV4fTRGM

2016 Micheal Landa 7.66kg (new Bolide S - 350g lighter frame anyway)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXy1fLe6yJ0

2017 Contadors 7.9kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DChKLjDD34

2015 Dumoulin 9.04kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP17D0Cndd8

2015 Rudy Moulard 9.07kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiTn87KAQR8

 

[samhocking]

Wout Poels 2017 Pinarello F10 7.07kg with medium section C40 wheels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4_P4csVJSQ

 

[yaco]

Understanding that pro cyclists consider motor doping to be far worse than normal doping begs the question - Surely fellow pro's/teams would dob in anyone suspected of using motor's in bikes.

 

[DanielSong39]

Re:

Understanding that pro cyclists consider motor doping to be far worse than normal doping begs the question - Surely fellow pro's/teams would dob in anyone suspected of using motor's in bikes.

Well, they didn't dob in Cancellara in 2010...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Understanding that pro cyclists consider motor doping to be far worse than normal doping begs the question - Surely fellow pro's/teams would dob in anyone suspected of using motor's in bikes.

Well, they didn't dob in Cancellara in 2010...

Indeed. I don't see any evidence that procyclists find motors worse.

Normal recreational cyclists and fans perhaps. But pros not really.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I have absolutely zero reason to believe the Greg camp. I think its pretty obvious that is has become about Armstrong and I find it stupid to even consider him using motors considering everything he has been through. Remember, Lance was very open about doping etc. and so Landis and Hamilton knew everything and has said everything. Absolutely nothing about the motor nonsense.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Understanding that pro cyclists consider motor doping to be far worse than normal doping begs the question - Surely fellow pro's/teams would dob in anyone suspected of using motor's in bikes.

Well, they didn't dob in Cancellara in 2010...

You don't know what happened in 2010 - You and I have no idea - 2010 was not the first time Cancellara has ridden away from a peleton.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

I have absolutely zero reason to believe the Greg camp. I think its pretty obvious that is has become about Armstrong and I find it stupid to even consider him using motors considering everything he has been through. Remember, Lance was very open about doping etc. and so Landis and Hamilton knew everything and has said everything. Absolutely nothing about the motor nonsense.

I didnt think about that
for sure Landis and Hamilton would have talked about the motor if Lance used one.

 

[Tienus]

A Pro tour team TT bike does not have to weigh more than the minimum unless something is hidden inside.
If Sky TT bikes where 800gr heavier then they probably weighted 7,6kg.

Bradly Wiggins Pinarello Graal TT bike 2010 with full disk rear
http://www.velonews.com/2010/08/gallery/tech-gallery-team-skys-pinarello-graal-time-trial-bike_132244#cH8FLOLRODfFtqDo.99
Tisma said that Wiggins’s bike weighed just over 6.8kgT

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I have absolutely zero reason to believe the Greg camp. I think its pretty obvious that is has become about Armstrong and I find it stupid to even consider him using motors considering everything he has been through. Remember, Lance was very open about doping etc. and so Landis and Hamilton knew everything and has said everything. Absolutely nothing about the motor nonsense.

I didnt think about that
for sure Landis and Hamilton would have talked about the motor if Lance used one.

Why would they know?

 

[kingjr]

How hard or easy is it to hide a motor for 9 years?

 

[sniper]

Re:

A Pro tour team TT bike does not have to weigh more than the minimum unless something is hidden inside.
If Sky TT bikes where 800gr heavier then they probably weighted 7,6kg.

Bradly Wiggins Pinarello Graal TT bike 2010 with full disk rear
http://www.velonews.com/2010/08/gallery/tech-gallery-team-skys-pinarello-graal-time-trial-bike_132244#cH8FLOLRODfFtqDo.99
Tisma said that Wiggins’s bike weighed just over 6.8kgT

*like*

 

[Tom the Engine]

Re:

A Pro tour team TT bike does not have to weigh more than the minimum unless something is hidden inside.
If Sky TT bikes where 800gr heavier then they probably weighted 7,6kg.

How does this relate to samhockings post above where he reports measured weights by GCN for different TT bikes? The GCN guy says in a video that many TT bikes he measured are even over 8 kg.
Are the measurements wrong or are these not the exact bikes that are effectively used by pros in the races?