Nacer Bouhanni

[spalco]

The situation compared to Groenewegen is completely different too. Dylan had no reason to move across other than to shut off Jakobsen/force him into the barriers. He wasn't following a wheel and has no excuse for his deviation. While the consequences might well have been the same had a crash happened, I do think that a severe punishment here could threaten sprinting.

I think it's very rare for cyclists to intentionally hurt their opponent Breaking Away-style, but whether it's recklessness or stupidity, Bouhanni is not exactly a neo-pro. If he doesn't know better to locate others on the road by now, he'll never learn, and he's a *** menace.

Actually if it's carelessness and not intentional that almost makes him more dangerous.

 

[Leinster]

I've defended Bouhanni in the past, but I find it very hard to believe he didn't know someone was there on Viviani's wheel. He moves across on a left leg downwards part of his pedal stroke and that, with the wind, probably caused a bigger shift across than he expected, but I'm pretty certain he either knew or knew to expect someone was there and he didn't care, he just wanted the fastest wheel. The issue is, following wheels doesn't count as launching a sprint, so it's going to be hard for the UCI to do that much.






The situation compared to Groenewegen is completely different too. Dylan had no reason to move across other than to shut off Jakobsen/force him into the barriers. He wasn't following a wheel and has no excuse for his deviation. While the consequences might well have been the same had a crash happened, I do think that a severe punishment here could threaten sprinting.

Agree with all of that. He almost certainly knew Stewart, or someone, was there, but went for the wheel anyway. Stewart launched a fraction of a second before he did, and they were both going for Viviani's wheel.

He deviated from his line, but so did everybody really; the whole sprint swung from right to left in 2 seconds. I do think Bouhanni gets caught up in these things more than he should. But as a part result of that, he gets maybe a touch more blame for some events than, say, Coquard or Demarre would in a similar situation (eg, after that Sagan/Cavendish crash, nobody was talking about how Demarre completely cut off, of all people, Bouhanni, on his way to the line, though tbf Demarre was going away from the barriers).

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I do think Bouhanni gets caught up in these things more than he should. But as a part result of that, he gets maybe a touch more blame for some events than, say, Coquard or Demarre would in a similar situation.

Imo, it's only fair that riders like Bouhanni who repeatedly cause dangerous situations (intentionally or not) in sprints are judged more harshly, because it means that they haven't learned from past mistakes and are therefore more likely to cause a bad crash in the future.

Even though Bouhanni's reputation is also partially a result of his behaviour outside of sprints, yesterday's events do show that the UCI needs to start applying the same logic to sanctions for dangerous riding as is done to doping: repeat offences should be punished more severely. Considering how many repeat offences Bouhanni has had at this point... he's due for a suspension now, rather than if/when he does a Groenewegen. Because if yesterday's move had happened on that finish in Poland, it very well may have been one.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Bouhanni's leadout needs more training. He went almost across the road from right to left but left a gap for Viviani to smash through. Stewart though must have irked Bouhanni earlier by trying to get on Bouhanni's leadout's wheel. Why didnt he go on the right is a mystery but its a split second decision.

 

[Leinster]

Bouhanni's leadout needs more training. He went almost across the road from right to left but left a gap for Viviani to smash through. Stewart though must have irked Bouhanni earlier by trying to get on Bouhanni's leadout's wheel. Why didnt he go on the right is a mystery but its a split second decision.

See above, the wind was from the right. So not only did Boudat, Bouhanni's leadout, leave a gap for Viviani, Boudat was sheltering Viviani from the wind the whole time.

 

[King Boonen]

Agree with all of that. He almost certainly knew Stewart, or someone, was there, but went for the wheel anyway. Stewart launched a fraction of a second before he did, and they were both going for Viviani's wheel.

He deviated from his line, but so did everybody really; the whole sprint swung from right to left in 2 seconds. I do think Bouhanni gets caught up in these things more than he should. But as a part result of that, he gets maybe a touch more blame for some events than, say, Coquard or Demarre would in a similar situation (eg, after that Sagan/Cavendish crash, nobody was talking about how Demarre completely cut off, of all people, Bouhanni, on his way to the line, though tbf Demarre was going away from the barriers).

As far as I understand the rule, he didn't. This rule applies when a sprint is launched at that means when the sprinter has clean air in front of them. If this weren't the case you wouldn't be able to come round your own leadout rider, let alone a rival. This is the problem here. People want consistent punishment for dangerous moves, and Bouhanni's move was certainly dangerous, but rules to cover this are going to become complex. These kind of moves happen all the time in the middle of the bunch (you've given an example), so rules will either need to apply everywhere or be specific to a riders road positioning. Will the rules apply to leadout riders getting out of the way and slowing down? They can also cause problems. This is why punishments tend to be a reaction to an actual crash, rather than the possibility of a crash.

It's hard enough concentrating on the wheels in front of and around you at 1000+W and max HR, let alone being completely aware of where you are and the possible impact this might have. Sprinting is instinctive, it's why riders like Cav and Sagan have been exceptional, but Greipel and Kittel needed well managed leadouts despite being stronger riders.

I go round and round on this and currently I think the rules governing the sprinters themselves are about right (as long as they are consistently enforced). What they need is better rules for barriers, which need to be angled and should really cover at minimum the last 500m of the course, and possibly better rules to allow teams without sprinters to get out of the way. This comes up constantly when crashes in GTs take out favourites. There's loads of suggestions that could work, I have personal preferences, but there needs to be will for it to happen.

 

[King Boonen]

I think it's very rare for cyclists to intentionally hurt their opponent Breaking Away-style, but whether it's recklessness or stupidity, Bouhanni is not exactly a neo-pro. If he doesn't know better to locate others on the road by now, he'll never learn, and he's a *** menace.

Actually if it's carelessness and not intentional that almost makes him more dangerous.

That may be the case, but should he be removed because he might cause a crash? Most crashes are likely caused by mistakes, should everyone who causes a crash get an automatic suspension?

 

[Red Rick]

Obvious dirtbag move, but not in the league of Groenewegen.

Worst part is it makes Groenwegens apologists cry about his ban again.

 

[jmdirt]

I'm too lazy to go look for the video, but my memory (not very trustworthy)tells me that NB not only tried to move JS off of the wheel he leaned into the move. I'm sure that he will argue that he was trying to save himself from crashing, but I call BS on that.

JS has a broken hand.

 

[King Boonen]

I’m just wondering, can anyone point out all the other times Bouhanni has supposedly caused a crash/almost caused a crash? I remember him getting cut up and fighting with, I think Ballerini, and some other arguments, but I’m struggling to remember him riding overly dangerously a lot. Just going to go back through this thread too.

 

[jmdirt]

That may be the case, but should he be removed because he might cause a crash? Most crashes are likely caused by mistakes, should everyone who causes a crash get an automatic suspension?

Yes, an automatic penalty in which suspension is the final consequence. IMO, some people are more willing to 'make mistakes' because there is no consequence. After 4, 5, 7 hours of racing there is a lot less oxygen helping the brain fire, but I'm not sure that is an excuse for dangerous riding (especially since some are worse than others).

Let's back it out to a personal reflection that mostly has nothing to do with sprinting at the top level. In the early '90s when I thought that I might be able to make a living racing mountain bikes I did quite a bit of road racing in the spring. I loved crits! Hard, fast racing, money for fast laps, what's not to love. I noticed a change though just within a few years of guys willing to risk it all to try to fit their bikes into a spot that it wouldn't fit into. Its basically a game of chicken: I'm taking that spot, are you going to hold it, or hit your brakes. If these guys who did this on a regular basis would have had a consequence other than a crash here and there, they might not have gotten worse, and others might not have joined them.

If moves like NB's were always penalized then maybe that would reduce "mistakes". Obviously it could be a 'step' system: 1st offense-verbal waring, 2nd offense-$$, 3rd offense-suspension with judgment for obvious egregious actions. IMO, DG's move is an automatic 3. NB's move is just a 1.5 if he doesn't have his history, but its obviously a 3 because of his history.

 

[jmdirt]

I’m just wondering, can anyone point out all the other times Bouhanni has supposedly caused a crash/almost caused a crash? I remember him getting cut up and fighting with, I think Ballerini, and some other arguments, but I’m struggling to remember him riding overly dangerously a lot. Just going to go back through this thread too.

Short answer, no, but I can't think of a year that he wasn't involved in at least something like this, and sometimes worse.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I’m just wondering, can anyone point out all the other times Bouhanni has supposedly caused a crash/almost caused a crash? I remember him getting cut up and fighting with, I think Ballerini, and some other arguments, but I’m struggling to remember him riding overly dangerously a lot. Just going to go back through this thread too.

He only closed the door in a few sprints and the other guy backed down. Greipel confronted him once in a hotel after a race and Nacer challenged him to a fistfight outside, but Greipel declined (because he has a brain and isn't gonna fight a guy who actually spars with Euro-level pro boxers). I remember FDJ and Guarnieri trying to blame him an Cofidis of being dangerous, only for them to post pictures of Guarnieri headbutting a member of the Cofidis sprint train.
Overall he's a hothead who clearly has anger management issues, but seems to get DQed a lot more often than other sprinters because he has a a bad rep.

 

[King Boonen]

Short answer, no, but I can't think of a year that he wasn't involved in at least something like this, and sometimes worse.

Specific examples though? I’ve been through most of the thread, it goes back to 2016, and the only thing that’s come up is unspecific poor sporting and Demare cutting him off (that I thought was fine and part of sprinting). There are no specific examples of Bouhanni doing anything dangerous while sprinting. There are plenty of sprinters who do obviously dangerous things and people defend them all the time.

 

[RedheadDane]

Obvious dirtbag move, but not in the league of Groenewegen.

Worst part is it makes Groenwegens apologists cry about his ban again.

But what would the result here have been, if it had happened on a slight downhill with *** barriers?
Maybe a 9-month ban would be too harsh here - guess you could argue that Groenewegen, knowing that the finish in Poland was slightly downhill, should have been extra mindful about where the other riders were - but 3 or 6 seems sufficient.

 

[King Boonen]

Yes, an automatic penalty in which suspension is the final consequence. IMO, some people are more willing to 'make mistakes' because there is no consequence. After 4, 5, 7 hours of racing there is a lot less oxygen helping the brain fire, but I'm not sure that is an excuse for dangerous riding (especially since some are worse than others).

Let's back it out to a personal reflection that mostly has nothing to do with sprinting at the top level. In the early '90s when I thought that I might be able to make a living racing mountain bikes I did quite a bit of road racing in the spring. I loved crits! Hard, fast racing, money for fast laps, what's not to love. I noticed a change though just within a few years of guys willing to risk it all to try to fit their bikes into a spot that it wouldn't fit into. Its basically a game of chicken: I'm taking that spot, are you going to hold it, or hit your brakes. If these guys who did this on a regular basis would have had a consequence other than a crash here and there, they might not have gotten worse, and others might not have joined them.

If moves like NB's were always penalized then maybe that would reduce "mistakes". Obviously it could be a 'step' system: 1st offense-verbal waring, 2nd offense-$$, 3rd offense-suspension with judgment for obvious egregious actions. IMO, DG's move is an automatic 3. NB's move is just a 1.5 if he doesn't have his history, but its obviously a 3 because of his history.

Honestly, I think all this will do is hand victory to the rider with the best lead out every single sprint.

 

[King Boonen]

He only closed the door in a few sprints and the other guy backed down. Greipel confronted him once in a hotel after a race and Nacer challenged him to a fistfight outside, but Greipel declined (because he has a brain and isn't gonna fight a guy who actually spars with Euro-level pro boxers). I remember FDJ and Guarnieri trying to blame him an Cofidis of being dangerous, only for them to post pictures of Guarnieri headbutting a member of the Cofidis sprint train.
Overall he's a hothead who clearly has anger management issues, but seems to get DQed a lot more often than other sprinters because he has a a bad rep.

This is the thing. I can’t remember him doing anything worse than any other sprinter, and he’s a lot better than several.

 

[King Boonen]

But what would the result here have been, if it had happened on a slight downhill with *** barriers?
Maybe a 9-month ban would be too harsh here - guess you could argue that Groenewegen, knowing that the finish in Poland was slightly downhill, should have been extra mindful about where the other riders were - but 3 or 6 seems sufficient.

What would have happened if they’d been descending a mountain and he’d pushed him off the road?!??!

 

[RedheadDane]

What would have happened if they’d been descending a mountain and he’d pushed him off the road?!??!

There has never been a case of a rider internationally pushing another rider off the road while going down a mountain.
I'm comparing two situations that actually happened, situations that very likely only had different outcomes because of differences in route and barriers.
What Groenewegen did was wrong, pretty much everyone knows that, he knows that.
What Bouhanni did was wrong, pretty much everyone knows that, not so sure he knows that.

 

[King Boonen]

There has never been a case of a rider internationally pushing another rider off the road while going down a mountain.
I'm comparing two situations that actually happened, situations that very likely only had different outcomes because of differences in route and barriers.
What Groenewegen did was wrong, pretty much everyone knows that, he knows that.
What Bouhanni did was wrong, pretty much everyone knows that, not so sure he knows that.

Bouhanni said he was in the wrong. What is different about Bouhanni that makes you not believe him when he says that but you do believe Groenewegen?

 

[roundabout]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=982nCZR0VUo


this one was maybe somewhat harsh, but it was still a needless move

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxitak37r7E


those are 2 relegations that I immediately remember, and I don't care about sprinting

Edit:

And this (even if one can't see anything in the sprint at the beginning of the vid) was also a relegation

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1HhlL2IZu0

 

[jmdirt]

Then again, many of these racers have been raised on kermesse. Have you seen those things? Its amazing that anyone survives!

 

[jmdirt]

Honestly, I think all this will do is hand victory to the rider with the best lead out every single sprint.

I don't know, trains are a relatively new thing in cycling and there were 'safer' sprints before that so it can be done again.

 

[roundabout]

But in interest of fairness, Bouhanni has been on the receiving end of some dodgy and even outright dangerous riding himself

(Vidéo) Chpt de France : Nacer Bouhanni chute et pleure

Nacer Bouhanni (Cofidis) était à deux doigts de décrocher ce dimanche un deuxième titre de champion de France, finalement glané par Steven Tronet. [...]

videosdecyclisme.fr

Saudi Tour - Nacer Bouhanni : "Il a changé de trajectoire"

Nacer Bouhanni n'en démord pas. Phil Bauhaus a fait une vague durant le sprint qui l'a empêché de se donner à 100%. Leader de la course, le sprinteur

todaycycling.com

 

[RedheadDane]

Bouhanni said he was in the wrong. What is different about Bouhanni that makes you not believe him when he says that but you do believe Groenewegen?

The fact that right after the stage Bouhanni told Stewart that he (Stewart) had "No respect"?

I just find it really hard to compare the two cases, when so much of the differences in outcome was due to differences in barriers.