Nadal/Tennis doping

[the sceptic]

You clearly havent watched a match between Nadal and Djokovic in the past 3 years then. Back to back 5 hour matches without getting tired isnt superhuman? please. Look at what happens to a "normal" player after a long 5 setter. They are exhausted in the next match.

Why do you think the likes of Nadal and Djokovic are "mentally tough", its because they know they have superior fitness to everyone. And staying fresh is vital to be able to maintain a high level of technical performance deep in the match. If youre tired, your concentration suffers too.

Federer doesnt win only 50% of 5 setters because he is mentally weaker than Nadal and Djokovic. Its because he doesnt have the fitness to destroy lesser fit opponents in the 5th.

That said, Federer is obviously doping too.

 

[Bicycle]

The top tennis players, like the top footballers, are without doubt doped to the eyeballs. But of course noone wants to know - there is too much money at stake. The average fan believes the myth that it's all about skill and that doping would make little difference.

 

[Almeisan]

You forgot cyclists.

 

[SirLes]

The top tennis players, like the top footballers, are without doubt doped to the eyeballs. But of course noone wants to know - there is too much money at stake. The average fan believes the myth that it's all about skill and that doping would make little difference.

I think this kind of standpoint is just as intellectually lazy as saying "they're all clean cos they are" or similar.

I would not stick my neck out and proclaim anyone is definitely clean and I have, for the sake of an interesting argument/discussion, put forward the case that tennis players or other sportsmen/women are doping. However I am very aware that I could be wrong as there is very little evidence that players are "doped to the eyeballs"

The lack of testing is a big concern and there is certainly money in the sport. I also do not discount the possibility that individuals will dope even if it doesn't make a difference but they think it does! In all sports the mind is the biggest single factor determining success (imo)

Unlike the Sceptic I don't believe that the top tennis players are physical freaks who could only reach that level of performance with illegal enhancement.
In my opinion, if you were to do a series of physical lab tests on Nadal etc, they would not be producing scores that were off the charts. Very high, higher than tennis players in the past reaches and some players would be higher than potters in different areas but not off the scale and achievable clean.

Cyclists on the other hand, I am less sure about

 

[Brad Lamb]

I think this kind of standpoint is just as intellectually lazy as saying "they're all clean cos they are" or similar.

I would not stick my neck out and proclaim anyone is definitely clean and I have, for the sake of an interesting argument/discussion, put forward the case that tennis players or other sportsmen/women are doping. However I am very aware that I could be wrong as there is very little evidence that players are "doped to the eyeballs"

The lack of testing is a big concern and there is certainly money in the sport. I also do not discount the possibility that individuals will dope even if it doesn't make a difference but they think it does! In all sports the mind is the biggest single factor determining success (imo)

Unlike the Sceptic I don't believe that the top tennis players are physical freaks who could only reach that level of performance with illegal enhancement.
In my opinion, if you were to do a series of physical lab tests on Nadal etc, they would not be producing scores that were off the charts. Very high, higher than tennis players in the past reaches and some players would be higher than potters in different areas but not off the scale and achievable clean.

Cyclists on the other hand, I am less sure about

Fuentes has publically confirmed that of his 200+ clients, 20% were tennis players. That's 40+ that were blood doping with one doctor.

 

[sniper]

Fuentes has publically confirmed that of his 200+ clients, 20% were tennis players. That's 40+ that were blood doping with one doctor.

touché

more evidence (both direct and indirect) of doping in tennis:
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/

 

[zebedee]

I think this kind of standpoint is just as intellectually lazy as saying "they're all clean cos they are" or similar.

I would not stick my neck out and proclaim anyone is definitely clean and I have, for the sake of an interesting argument/discussion, put forward the case that tennis players or other sportsmen/women are doping. However I am very aware that I could be wrong as there is very little evidence that players are "doped to the eyeballs"

The lack of testing is a big concern and there is certainly money in the sport. I also do not discount the possibility that individuals will dope even if it doesn't make a difference but they think it does! In all sports the mind is the biggest single factor determining success (imo)

Unlike the Sceptic I don't believe that the top tennis players are physical freaks who could only reach that level of performance with illegal enhancement.
In my opinion, if you were to do a series of physical lab tests on Nadal etc, they would not be producing scores that were off the charts. Very high, higher than tennis players in the past reaches and some players would be higher than potters in different areas but not off the scale and achievable clean.

Cyclists on the other hand, I am less sure about

An opinion equally as unsupported as the post it seeks to criticise.

 

[Andynonomous]

Either argument ("they all do it", "very few do it") is almost certainly wrong.


Although I can't prove it (no-one can prove it, unless you can watch the athletes 24/7), I suspect (using my "doper-dar") that more than 50% (50% to 80%) of the top 100 male tennis players are doping, and more than 67% (67% to 95%) of the top 100 female tennis players are doping.

 

[thrawn]

Either argument ("they all do it", "very few do it") is almost certainly wrong.


Although I can't prove it (no-one can prove it, unless you can watch the athletes 24/7), I suspect (using my "doper-dar") that more than 50% (50% to 80%) of the top 100 male tennis players are doping, and more than 67% (67% to 95%) of the top 100 female tennis players are doping.

Any particular reasoning behind the higher % of women dopers?

 

[Andynonomous]

Any particular reasoning behind the higher % of women dopers?

Mostly just from watching the performances (the vast majority of the top women win by being stronger than their rivals).

For example, Serena Williams, has almost no tennis specific skill whatsoever (her movement, anticipation, positioning, strokes, ... are downright ugly). Yet she is the number one in the world well into her thirties, strictly because she hits the ball harder than her competitors.

Being a "brainless ball-basher" is not enough to win grand slams on the men's tour. You need great movement, and a very high level stamina. Of course strength helps as well, but it isn't enough in itself.

If all you need is strength to win, it is easier to dope your way to a championship, therefore, over time, more will dope. The men's tour will take a more complex cocktail of drugs to win, therefore I suspect that fewer men would chance it (still I suspect more than half do).


Much of this may be due to the less-competitive nature of women's sports. Fewer women play competitive sports, therefore women's sports are less "competitive". It is easier to "climb the ladder" by using drugs, since there are fewer women ahead of you, than there would be for a man. Take a look at women's ice hockey in the Olympics, for a good example of "lack of competitiveness". Only the USA and Canada win the Gold medal.

I believe that is why the East Germans doped the crap out of their female athletes in the 70s and 80s, and why Chinese women won most of their medals at the Bejing Olympics. It's just easier to dope to success in women's sports.

 

[SundayRider]

The constant travelling would make it harder to carry stuff around wouldn't it?

 

[William H]

The constant travelling would make it harder to carry stuff around wouldn't it?

Probably, but the top players no doubt have the resources to handle it if they want to.

 

[buckle]

The constant travelling would make it harder to carry stuff around wouldn't it?

Lance managed it. Most tennis players hire properties rather than stay in hotels. They just need their own motoman.

 

[Jerkovin]

An opinion equally as unsupported as the post it seeks to criticise.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Doping "controls" are so pathetic in tennis that just about every viewpoint and completely unsupported and impossible to back up. Everything is guessing and opinion.

Mostly just from watching the performances (the vast majority of the top women win by being stronger than their rivals).

For example, Serena Williams, has almost no tennis specific skill whatsoever (her movement, anticipation, positioning, strokes, ... are downright ugly). Yet she is the number one in the world well into her thirties, strictly because she hits the ball harder than her competitors.

Being a "brainless ball-basher" is not enough to win grand slams on the men's tour. You need great movement, and a very high level stamina. Of course strength helps as well, but it isn't enough in itself.

If all you need is strength to win, it is easier to dope your way to a championship, therefore, over time, more will dope. The men's tour will take a more complex cocktail of drugs to win, therefore I suspect that fewer men would chance it (still I suspect more than half do).


Much of this may be due to the less-competitive nature of women's sports. Fewer women play competitive sports, therefore women's sports are less "competitive". It is easier to "climb the ladder" by using drugs, since there are fewer women ahead of you, than there would be for a man. Take a look at women's ice hockey in the Olympics, for a good example of "lack of competitiveness". Only the USA and Canada win the Gold medal.

I believe that is why the East Germans doped the crap out of their female athletes in the 70s and 80s, and why Chinese women won most of their medals at the Bejing Olympics. It's just easier to dope to success in women's sports.

Sorry, but I don't think I've ever read more BS in my entire life.

I work in tennis. Serena could well be a doper. Who knows. But regardless, she has an incredible amount of skill and at her best, her game is extremely complete and generally very technically sound. She has played many players who hit harder than her. Not least Kvitova who just won Wimbledon or Lisicki who beat her last year.

The fact that you think she doesn't move well shows how little you know about tennis. When she was younger, she was easily one of the top 5 movers. Now she's 33 but she can still move great. She freaking just won Roland Garros last year by standing behind the baseline and playing defensive claycourt tennis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ41Hj15GEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj_64Z_iTA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bktg4zioVQE

 

[zebedee]

The constant travelling would make it harder to carry stuff around wouldn't it?

Wayne Odesnik clearly didn't think there was a problem. He was caught by Australian customs who found HGH in luggage of his that had gone astray.

I doubt most steroid-abusing tennis players would risk carrying anything at all. You don't need to anyway. Effects of steroids are relatively long-lasting and are presumably used in training rather than competition.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Wayne Odesnik clearly didn't think there was a problem. He was caught by Australian customs who found HGH in luggage of his that had gone astray.

I doubt most steroid-abusing tennis players would risk carrying anything at all. You don't need to anyway. Effects of steroids are relatively long-lasting and are presumably used in training rather than competition.

I think the bigger players would use a member of their entourage.

I guess it depends what can be used with the testing at the time.

Doping mid tour was a pretty big weapon for Armstrong. The blood transfusion before his battle with Pantani on Ventoux in 2000 sticks out in my mind.

 

[Andynonomous]

Sorry, but I don't think I've ever read more BS in my entire life.

I work in tennis. Serena could well be a doper. Who knows. But regardless, she has an incredible amount of skill and at her best, her game is extremely complete and generally very technically sound. She has played many players who hit harder than her. Not least Kvitova who just won Wimbledon or Lisicki who beat her last year.

The fact that you think she doesn't move well shows how little you know about tennis. When she was younger, she was easily one of the top 5 movers. Now she's 33 but she can still move great. She freaking just won Roland Garros last year by standing behind the baseline and playing defensive claycourt tennis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ41Hj15GEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj_64Z_iTA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bktg4zioVQE

Serena Williams "movement" looks more like Ben Johnson's, than a classic tennis player (she is a "sprinter", like Nadal). Likely due to steroids, not from proper training (from her know-nothing father).

She has HORRENDOUS ball striking technique. I remember that John McEnroe was trying to describe it one year at the USO (they had an ultra-slow motion camera). After evaluating Roger Federer's technique (John was effusive as to what Roger was doing right), he went COMPLETELY SILENT while watching Serena bash the snot out of the ball with a horrible swing.

(squinty eyes NOT on the ball, hence ball no-where near center of the racket, mouth open as she grunts, uses no "leg" as she uses upper body strength to "muscle" the ball)

If you can't tell the difference between tennis-specific talent, and PED-fuelled "talent", and you really work in tennis (not just another interweb bull****ter) , you should be fired.

A properly trained tennis player.

 

[SundayRider]

Wayne Odesnik clearly didn't think there was a problem. He was caught by Australian customs who found HGH in luggage of his that had gone astray.

I doubt most steroid-abusing tennis players would risk carrying anything at all. You don't need to anyway. Effects of steroids are relatively long-lasting and are presumably used in training rather than competition.

That is the thing though isn't it, they have very little 'down time' and training blocks compared to other sports and everyone competes at the same events, pretty much. Would be easy to target test and catch if the authorities wanted too.

 

[thrawn]

Mostly just from watching the performances (the vast majority of the top women win by being stronger than their rivals).

For example, Serena Williams, has almost no tennis specific skill whatsoever (her movement, anticipation, positioning, strokes, ... are downright ugly). Yet she is the number one in the world well into her thirties, strictly because she hits the ball harder than her competitors.

Being a "brainless ball-basher" is not enough to win grand slams on the men's tour. You need great movement, and a very high level stamina. Of course strength helps as well, but it isn't enough in itself.

If all you need is strength to win, it is easier to dope your way to a championship, therefore, over time, more will dope. The men's tour will take a more complex cocktail of drugs to win, therefore I suspect that fewer men would chance it (still I suspect more than half do).


Much of this may be due to the less-competitive nature of women's sports. Fewer women play competitive sports, therefore women's sports are less "competitive". It is easier to "climb the ladder" by using drugs, since there are fewer women ahead of you, than there would be for a man. Take a look at women's ice hockey in the Olympics, for a good example of "lack of competitiveness". Only the USA and Canada win the Gold medal.

I believe that is why the East Germans doped the crap out of their female athletes in the 70s and 80s, and why Chinese women won most of their medals at the Bejing Olympics. It's just easier to dope to success in women's sports.

Fair enough. I think the men are just as doped, if not more so than the women but there you go. My main basis for this is that there are next to no teenagers in the top 200. At Wimbledon they said Kyrgios was the only teen in the top 200. It was only a few years ago that it was the first time in history that a teen hadn't been in the top 100. Historically the really talented teens have been able to break into the top 100 on talent. These days the game has become so physical that most can't even get there until they have more time in the gym/more time on dope.

 

[zebedee]

Although she hit the ball quite sweetly, I would say Henin was as big a suspect of peds use as anyone. Being so small, she just couldn't compete without them.

I watched a match at Wimbledon once where Venus Williams was hitting serves timed at 125 mph plus. That's at Sampras level, insane.

 

[zebedee]

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Doping "controls" are so pathetic in tennis that just about every viewpoint and completely unsupported and impossible to back up. Everything is guessing and opinion

Doping controls are pathetic, I agree; an opinion held generally by those who know tennis.

Tennis players using peds pass tests anyway. However, there is plenty of indicative evidence that doping goes on in tennis. The only unknown is quantum.

 

[Andynonomous]

Nadal's magic serve is back !

Heading into a new challenge, Nadal posted a picture on his Twitter page, in which he was seen sporting a new serve for the hard-court season.


Nadal serves with his non-dominant hand (he is right handed, and serves with his left). His serve has always been a liability. He generally served (average first serve) below 110 mph for the first few years he was on the professional tour. Then it gradually started to rise, peaking at the 2010 USO at 120 mph (after jumping more than 5 mph from 4 months earlier during the clay season).

It has been fluctuating between 110 and 120 mph since (almost always peaking at the two faster surface slams where a big serve helps the most - Wimbledon, and the USO). This year at Wimbledon, it was just above 110 mph. Any jump up to 120 mph a couple of months later would be highly suspicious.

The service motion is very similar to the pitch in baseball. We know pitchers (like Roger Clemens) kept their stuff into their 40s, during the "steroids era" of baseball. I have heard speculation that anabolics can add 5 mph to your fastball. Maybe a testosterone patch plus IGF1 injection can add up to 10 mph to a fastball/serve ?

Regardless, Nadal's "explanation" of a "grip change", or "service motion change", this late in his career is BS. You can't make major fundamental changes (within a few weeks) to your strokes late in your career. It's like changing the location of a building after the foundation is built.

 

[Jerkovin]

Serena Williams "movement" looks more like Ben Johnson's, than a classic tennis player (she is a "sprinter", like Nadal). Likely due to steroids, not from proper training (from her know-nothing father).

She has HORRENDOUS ball striking technique. I remember that John McEnroe was trying to describe it one year at the USO (they had an ultra-slow motion camera). After evaluating Roger Federer's technique (John was effusive as to what Roger was doing right), he went COMPLETELY SILENT while watching Serena bash the snot out of the ball with a horrible swing.

(squinty eyes NOT on the ball, hence ball no-where near center of the racket, mouth open as she grunts, uses no "leg" as she uses upper body strength to "muscle" the ball)

If you can't tell the difference between tennis-specific talent, and PED-fuelled "talent", and you really work in tennis (not just another interweb bull****ter) , you should be fired.

A properly trained tennis player.

Pure idiocy.

The irony of this post is that Henin had many more doping accusations from people in the know because of her dramatic weight gain that saw her go from the small 5ft5 toothpick to a huge piece of muscle capable of hitting just as hard as players almost a foot taller than her.

If you want to hate on Serena, then go for it. But please stop embarrassing yourself. Technically, her serve is probably the greatest motion ever alongside Federer. Off the ground, both her forehand and backhand are simple, small swings with very little wrong with them. And in many ways, she and Venus were trailblazers as far as technique goes, as they were the first to regularly hit with full-rotating open stance groundstrokes and early preparation.

Nice try though.

 

[Andynonomous]

Pure idiocy.

The irony of this post is that Henin had many more doping accusations from people in the know because of her dramatic weight gain that saw her go from the small 5ft5 toothpick to a huge piece of muscle capable of hitting just as hard as players almost a foot taller than her.

If you want to hate on Serena, then go for it. But please stop embarrassing yourself. Technically, her serve is probably the greatest motion ever alongside Federer. Off the ground, both her forehand and backhand are simple, small swings with very little wrong with them. And in many ways, she and Venus were trailblazers as far as technique goes, as they were the first to regularly hit with full-rotating open stance groundstrokes and early preparation.

Nice try though.

Could you explain how Henin doping means that Williams isn't ?


By the way, this thread is about Nadal. If you want to state the usual blind fanboy denial about your "hero", please use the tennis thread.

 

[sniper]

Pure idiocy.

The irony of this post is that Henin had many more doping accusations from people in the know because of her dramatic weight gain that saw her go from the small 5ft5 toothpick to a huge piece of muscle capable of hitting just as hard as players almost a foot taller than her.

If you want to hate on Serena, then go for it. But please stop embarrassing yourself. Technically, her serve is probably the greatest motion ever alongside Federer. Off the ground, both her forehand and backhand are simple, small swings with very little wrong with them. And in many ways, she and Venus were trailblazers as far as technique goes, as they were the first to regularly hit with full-rotating open stance groundstrokes and early preparation.

Nice try though.

come on.
ever seen serena or venus hit a volley?
both look horrible at the net.
and it's there, at the net, where great tennis players distinguish themselves from mediocre ones.
hard to deny the williams sisters are pretty poor at the net.
not to mention their dropshots. they suck.
both sisters lack a feel for the ball, and even laymen can see that.

as for their groundstroke technique, it seems to be based on their superior physical strength which allows them to hit the ball early with open stance.
not based on talent, if you ask me.