National Football League

[FoxxyBrown1111]

OK, i am going with... no side.

Players are overpaid as long taxpayers have to pay for stadiums (even those who are not interested in pro sports) and congress gives monopoly to the NFL.

It doesn´t matter how much money you throw after players. Those who can´t count, go bankrupt anyway. Look at Michael Jackson or Mike Tyson and their decadent lifestyles. They really killed wealth. But that´s not the problem of the taxpayers.

I give you the insurance point. But this only is true for the older players. Even back in the 80´s Pro-Bowl OL-Men earned as little as 50.000 $ a year (source: McMahon´s autobiography). Those players were really underpaid. Those are the ones who suffer today. Those were the players who were treated with WW II medicine. But in the end, it was still sport and not $uck the fans at all costs only. I don´t feel an inch sorry for the players of today. It got out of hand when millionares got on strike in 1994 in MLB. Around that time salaries started to skyrocket over all major leagues. The 82 & 87 NFL-Strikes made sense, while last years fight was a farce.

But are they really overpaid? I mean, it depends on your perspective. If the players didn't get the money, the owners would just keep it all. And most of the players only last 3 seasons or so. Thus, the money they make often has to last them a long time, and as we know, many of them don't have much in the way of insurance when they get old, but have many health problems.

I guess in an ideal world the owners would have less money, the games would be inexpensive, and the players would make good money, but instead of making them super rich, the league would have a very comfortable health insurance and retirement plan for players. But that's not going to happen. So if it's an issue of the players (who do the work) getting the money, or the owners keeping it, I'll side with the players.

Entertainment! That´s what makes me angry. I guess we all love sports. The players started as sportsmen. Jesus, even the game was meant to be a sports event. I don´t like this WWE stuff. Fantasy points on the official NFL-Site!? What´s next? Bookies making commercials there (it´s not far out of reach; Easterbrook discussed it last year that such plans exist )? Formerly stadiums were called soldier field, nowadays you have Fedex Field. All in the name of dollars. It´s disgusting.

Let the market dictate! Yes, let´s do it. Stop stadium buildings by taxpayers for the profit for owners/players only. Stop the monopoly. So next time the millionares dare to strike; let them do it. Soon other leagues will be founded. Market will get in. I have no problem with that.

Without the players we would have no teams? Sorry, disagree here. Without the owners, who fought and corrupted their way to the top, there would be no teams. Make an experiment: Let those greedy players try to built a league and organize it. They´ll fail. Guaranteed. The players are nothing, if the NFL wasn´t made a success by the owners over a very, very long period.

I'll expand Alpe's rationale. What kind of money do you think big screen movie stars should make for the entertainment value they provide? I'm talking moderate to big names, like Tom Cruise, Russell Crowe, Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Jack Nicholson, Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt, Gene Hackman, Michael Caine, Meryl Streep, Cate Blanchett, Tom Hanks, Liv Ullmann, Morgan Freeman, Daniel Day-Lewis, Emma Thompson? Okay, I guess those are mostly big names. Point is, athletes are as much screen entertainment as movie stars. PLUS their careers are much shorter. Even the lower paid, lower value players contribute substantially to the entertainment value because without them we would not have teams. So the players should get paid according to the entertainment value they provide, without breaking the owners back or wallet. So I too side with the players, even though some do get a bit extra greedy and there seems to be a one upsmanship when it comes to player contracts that is a bit over the top. But I say let the market dictate what owners can afford to pay. Eventually there is a practical limit to how much owners can pay and still survive.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Do you feel the same way about CEOs? As if, there were no CEO's, there would be no jobs? That's nuts if you ask me. Most CEO's are absurdly overpaid, and just like some sports team owners (you can list them) they will run their business/team into the ground, or the brink of financial ruin, and still make off like bandits (Frank McCourt anyone?).

Are they all overpaid? Probably so. But I'm again going to side with the players, the people doing the actual work, who still make far less than the CEO/Owners, including the bad ones.

As to the whoring out of the sport to sponsorship, and holding taxpayers hostage, there I fully agree with you. That is disgusting. I'm glad my former home town (Portland, Oregon) didn't build a baseball stadium, or sell the name of the Rose Garden (NBA arena)...yet anyway. And I'm glad my new home state (Connecticut) hasn't fallen for the bribes to get the NHL Whalers back, despite a lot of talk on it. And they didn't fall for Kraft's idea several years ago to build an NFL stadium just over the CT border next to Mass. But I feel very sorry for cities and tax payers who do fall for it. Seattle taxpayers are still paying for the Kingdome, even though it was demolished over a decade ago! And NY/NJ taxpayers are still paying for the old Meadowlands, even though it's been demolished, and there is a new stadium there. I'm also really sick of sponsored names, just as you are. Met Life Park, Qualcomm, etc. etc. I was really happy when fans in SF continually called Candlestick Park by that name, and were covering the signs with that name when the city tried to call it Monster.com park, 3Com park, etc. And while I'm on a roll here, anyone remember Enron Field?

So on that regard, you're right. Go ahead, take your team and move it if we refuse to give you a new stadium for free.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Yes, CEO´s are overpaid. It started all in the 80´s when shareholder value took over. Friedman the assassin of mankind took over. But now we are right into politics, corrupted republicans (Not that democrats are much better; actually your plutocracy, which also came to europe lately, is the same as for example the one party system under Arap Moi in Kenya. That far your once free & beautiful country has fallen), and all the disseases that come with it.

Back to NFL. You are right. I should have said the old owners who built the league (not that they were Saints; almost all were shady guys). Anyway, w/o them, no millonares on NFL playing fields... Their sons, cousins & uncles just inherited, they did nothing. That´s why i said i am on no side.

Enron Field made me laugh.

Seems on most points (outside player salaries) we agree as usual...

 

[Zam_Olyas]

wow skip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhM8j5gedo&feature=relmfu

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Well... two idiots shouting at each other. I guess none of them ever played any sports. Useless.

BTW, Manning is overrated, overpaid and greedy (taking money from kids to just sign autographs). Role model.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

wow skip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhM8j5gedo&feature=relmfu

Zamo, didn't know you had an interest in the NFL.

But back to the point... I agree wit you. At first I thought, 'Skip, what are you on?' Stephen A. Smith rightly said "that is asinine". Then I thought, 'Skip's being a crackhead'. Smith later aptly asked Skip, 'Are you on crack?' Incredible. The third guy in the booth with Skip and Stephen was just sitting back, smiling, and enjoying the ruckus, but later quipped 'Kid (referring to Manning being talked to by head coach Fox and GM Elway) if you work hard and really devote yourself to this you could... be... the next Tim Tebow'. Bwaaaaahahahah. What a great Skip slam.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Idiots. A waste of time watching it. Dumervil also should be added to the super idiot list. Not going to waste my time talking about that either.

My prediction is 10-6 for the Broncos, maybe 11-5 if they can get out to a quick start. Manning will still be quite good, but not the same guy we saw in 2006. Being in a fairly weak division could help.

Meanwhile, with Brees now signed, I still don't know what to predict for the Saints. They obviously have plenty of tools, but that division is tougher, and with no Sean Payton, and Vitt taking over half-way through the season...they could finish 12-4, or 8-8.

Welker on the other hand, I don't expect to get a new deal with the Patriots. After dropping that key pass in the SB, his turning 31, and the way the Patriots work on the business side, I don't see it. $9.5 mil guaranteed for someone like that is way too much. The Patriots gaps are obviously on defense, and if they can fill that at least somewhat, Welker could sit the season in protest and the Pats could still make it deep in the playoffs.

I know this is an NFL thread, but we talked some about college too. Bleacher Report is predicting LSU over USC in the championship. That's not a bad pick. I think Oklahoma could be a team that wins a lot of games as well.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I watched it. Skip was way out in left... no, outside the ballpark. Smith, who I agreed with, was crazed to carry on like that. Add it all up, you're right. IDIOTS.

I propose a new spelling for Dumervil... Dumberville.

If Saints go 10-4, which they could, and some other team does not come close to running the table (e.g. 15-1) like the Pack did last year, Brees could be the NFL MVP if he's allowed to make all his own play calls.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Carmichael will call the plays, but I see your point. If he's given total autonomy on every single play, yes, I could say that too. As you mentioned before, he's practically a coach on the field as is.

You either mean 12-4 or 10-6. The fourteen game season ended some years ago.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Well... two idiots shouting at each other. I guess none of them ever played any sports. Useless.

Just for grins, and no disrespect intended, Skip did play a little hoops for his HS team (LINK). But not very well.

Skip Bayless scored a grand total of 21 points in 15 games as the “starting” point guard for the 1970 state runner-up. That averages out to 1.4 points per game.

Stephen A. Smith at least was able to play college hoops until he was injured.

Stephen A. Smith came to Winston-Salem State University planning to make a name for himself as a basketball player under the tutelage of the legendary Clarence "Big House" Gaines. A knee injury and a suspect jump shot, according to Coach Gaines, shelved his quest for stardom. (LINK)

OFC, non of that disqualifies them from that bout of "vigorous expression of different opinion".

You either mean 12-4 or 10-6. The fourteen game season ended some years ago.

Oops, I meant 12-4. At 11:56 p.m. I was a little bleary eyed.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Zamo, didn't know you had an interest in the NFL.

But back to the point... I agree wit you. At first I thought, 'Skip, what are you on?' Stephen A. Smith rightly said "that is asinine". Then I thought, 'Skip's being a crackhead'. Smith later aptly asked Skip, 'Are you on crack?' Incredible. The third guy in the booth with Skip and Stephen was just sitting back, smiling, and enjoying the ruckus, but later quipped 'Kid (referring to Manning being talked to by head coach Fox and GM Elway) if you work hard and really devote yourself to this you could... be... the next Tim Tebow'. Bwaaaaahahahah. What a great Skip slam.

Yep, i watch baseball,nfl and college football ( badgers and jump around is the shiznit..would love to be there one day. )

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Wow. Someone saw "Moneyball"?

Shoots right up there as one of the best ever sport movies.

Favourite Line: "We don´t know anything (about how a player will perform in MLB)". Beane/Pitt to the head scout before he fired him. Epic. Basically what we discussed here for a quiet length. 100% compatible to NFL.

Scene: After head scout is fired, Beane/Pitt hires some guy whom he asked before if he ever played baseball. As he said no, he got the job. Awesome.

Story: Great. What i am always saying. Stats are not for losers, only if you look at the wrong numbers (which goes on in pro sports for ages).

"Oscar" goes to: Seymour Hoffman as Art Howe. Classic.

Conclusion/Fact check: Perfect. All in te movie goes in line with what truly happened. Now whole MLB uses stat guys who know a thing or two. It works, but in the end it´s a zero sum game now.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Just 9 days until the Hall of Fame game!

Tour is over, Olympics are commercialized garbage (okay, maybe not), but it's time for football! Here are some updates to get your blood going:

While Luck has reportedly struggled some with the entirely new offensive scheme in Indy, Manning has not seamlessly moved into Denver either. Matt Moore comes into Miami taking 1st reps, with Tannehill wisely sitting and watching. RG3 however continues to impressive everyone, including veteran defensive players on the Skins.

Justin Blackmon is holding out in Jacksonville for some stupid reason. Kendell Wright has been holding out but wants to get to camp and play, so expect a signing very soon. Matt Kahlil signed in Minnesota.

Seattle signed Antonio Bryant. Yes, that's correct, Bryant didn't play a down last year, and was thought to be done with football. But Pete Carroll saw something in him. Tatupu apparently tried to come back with Seattle after missing last year, and was hurt again, and likely out for 2012 as well. Can Bruce Irvin play ILB?

After walking out of a conditioning test in New England, Joseph Addai was promptly cut by Bill Belicheck. Not suspended. Not fined. Cut. But is anyone really surprised by this? Pats filled his shoes with DE Tim Bulman, formerly of Houston.

Mike Wallace is holding out in Pittsburgh. A potential hall of famer nearing the end of his career, this is some tough love someone is going to have to cave.

Bleacher Report having more fun. Five players guaranteed to be busts in 2012. (Make your picks now before looking, I'll list mine later).

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

5 busts:
1. Luck
2. PManning
3. EManning
4. Any RB whose OL lost continuity
5. Some guy from te Saints, maybe even Brees...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

1. Mark Sanchez
2. Charles Johnson
3. Michael Vick
4. Pierre Garçon
5. Reggie Bush

You cold argue some of those guys are already busting though.

Both Mannings, Adrien Peterson, Alex Smith, Brandon Jacobs, Troy Polamalu, Nnamdi Asomghua, Ryan Matthews, Osi Umenyiora, Matt Flynn, Tim Tebow and yes, Andrew Luck, could all have bust seasons.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The Cleveland Browns have reportedly been sold for $1b Link here.

Not officially final, but Jimmy Haslam will be the new owner. He currently is a small minority owner of the Steelers which he'll sell back to the Rooneys, and this official sale won't be fully approved until October, but the NFL apparently helped broker the deal so the NFL's approval will just be a formality.

What's most interesting is to see how active of an owner he is, and what immediate decisions he makes. Departing owner Randy Lerner was very hands off, and mr. invisible with the Browns. It remains to be seen what will happen with coach Pat Shurmur, if he'll keep his job. GM Tom Eckert is likely gone, and most important, president Mike Holmgren is the big question mark, as he's basically been running the team and building it. It remains to be seen if Haslam will bring some of the Rooney's long-term managerial wisdom to the Browns. With Trent Richardson and Brandon Weeden taken in the first round of the draft to help a very anemic offense, and now the sale, Cleveland has a big unknown the next year or two. But if I were a Browns fan, I'd be cautiously optimistic.

Hall of Fame Game on Sunday. Let's get excited people!

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

1. Mark Sanchez
2. Charles Johnson
3. Michael Vick
4. Pierre Garçon
5. Reggie Bush

You cold argue some of those guys are already busting though.

Both Mannings, Adrien Peterson, Alex Smith, Brandon Jacobs, Troy Polamalu, Nnamdi Asomghua, Ryan Matthews, Osi Umenyiora, Matt Flynn, Tim Tebow and yes, Andrew Luck, could all have bust seasons.

Definate possible for "Sanchize" and the other four listed there. I don't see Mannings busting. Peyton, maybe but only because of the injury and possible reinjury or not completely at full power. But even if that happens with Peyton, he's light years beyond the "bust" tag for what he's accomplished. Osi is already second string behind JPP and Tuck. Luck could bust... he just does not have the "relative" supporting cast he was accustomed to at Stanford. Then not saying it's going to happen, but:
1. Matt Flynn
2. TJax
3. Bruce Irvin

The Cleveland Browns have reportedly been sold for $1b Link here.

Not officially final, but Jimmy Haslam will be the new owner. He currently is a small minority owner of the Steelers which he'll sell back to the Rooneys, and this official sale won't be fully approved until October, but the NFL apparently helped broker the deal so the NFL's approval will just be a formality.

What's most interesting is to see how active of an owner he is, and what immediate decisions he makes. Departing owner Randy Lerner was very hands off, and mr. invisible with the Browns. It remains to be seen what will happen with coach Pat Shurmur, if he'll keep his job. GM Tom Eckert is likely gone, and most important, president Mike Holmgren is the big question mark, as he's basically been running the team and building it. It remains to be seen if Haslam will bring some of the Rooney's long-term managerial wisdom to the Browns. With Trent Richardson and Brandon Weeden taken in the first round of the draft to help a very anemic offense, and now the sale, Cleveland has a big unknown the next year or two. But if I were a Browns fan, I'd be cautiously optimistic.

Hall of Fame Game on Sunday. Let's get excited people!

Yeah, I heard the sale rumors. Whoever the new owner is probably will not make sweeping changes immediately. But if anyone is on the hot seat IMO it's Holmgren. He just does not build teams very well on his own. It only took Carroll 2 years in Seattle to accomplish what Mike did in his 8 years in Seattle, and that is how quickly other teams snap up Seattle cast-offs. If other teams around the league quickly picking up another team's cuts, that's a sign of the quality of the player cut.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Bleacher Report has ranked NFL Offenses:

1. Green Bay
2. New England
3. New Orleans
4. San Diego
5. Philly
6. Detroit
12. SF
13. NYG
17. Den
22. Wash
30. NYJ
31. Colts
32. Jax

And defenses. Here's the link.

1. 49ers
2. Texans
3. Philly
4. Baltimore
5. Pitt
6. Seattle
15. NYG
26. Denver
28. Patriots
29. Lions (who someone else at BR predicts a SB win).
32. Oakland

And finally coaching staffs.

1. New England (was there any doubt?)
2. Houston
3. NYG
4. Pittsburgh
5. Green Bay
9. St. Louis (Jeff Fisher's new staff)
11. NYJ
18. Seattle
31. San Diego (yes, someone had to say it!)
32. Saints (put Payton there, and they're maybe 1 or 2).

AP's first ever team power rankings are out. I'll post those later, along with comments.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Those are pretty fair rankings for the O, D, and coaching. Even Seattle offense at somewhere around #24 is fair. There is a lot of hope in Hawkville, but before they can be ranked higher they have to prove it first and eliminate the question marks at QB, WR, and OL. No doubting here Bellicheck is the best coach in the NFL.

Well, today is the annual Hall of Fame inductions (note: all "of-the-year" (OTY) awards listed are NFL, not team or conference):
- Jack Butler, CB, Steelers 1951-59, 4 Pro Bowls, 52 INTs, 50's all-decade team
- Dermontti Dawson, C, Steelers, 13 years, 7 Pro Bowls, 6x 1st team All Pro, 90's all-decade team, 4th time's a charm on Hall's ballot (OL don't get no respect)
- Chris Doleman, DE, Vikes-Falcs-9ers, 150+ sacks in 15 years, 8 Pro Bowls, 3x 1st team All Pro, 90's all-decade team
- Cortez Kennedy, DT, Seahawks, 10 years, 8 Pro Bowls, 3x 1st team All Pro, 90's all-decade team, 1992 Defensive POTY
- Curtis Martin, RB, Pats-Jets, 11 years, 5 Pro Bowls, 5x 1st team All Pro, 1995 rookie-OTY, 4th all-time NFL rushing yards (14,101)
- Willie Roaf, OT, Saints-Chiefs, 13 years, 11 Pro Bowls, 6x 1st team All Pro, 90's & 2000's all-decade teams

NFL Network aired their picks of the "Top 10 NFL Players to Not Make the Hall of Fame". There are a lot of players who arguably could make this list, but here is the NFL Network's list starting with #10 counting down [MY pick for IN or OUT of HOF]:

10. Ken Anderson, QB, Bengals, 16 years, 4 Pro Bowls, 1x 1st team All Pro, 1981 MVP & Offensive POTY. [OUT]

9. Ray Guy, P, Raiders, 14 years, 7 Pro Bowls, 6x 1st team All Pro. [IN]

C'mon HOF voters! This is the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of "I played every down". Special Teamers are an important part of the game. To leave them out of the Hall just because they only played special teams is a travesty. (So How'd Jan Stenerud get in?) Guy is probably the most FAMEous punter, if not of all special teamers, of all-time. He had a ridiculous hang time and was really a weapon with that hang time and ability to hit the coffin corner. Steve Tasker is another special teamer who is probably the best special team cover guy of all-time. He was so good coach Marv Levy would not him play much WR because they did not want to risk losing him for special teams.

8. Alex Karras, DT, Lions, 4x Pro Bowls, 60's all-decade team, "Mongo" of "Blazing Saddles", missed NFL season of 1963 due to NFL suspension for gambling (as did Paul Hornung, who is in the HOF). Apparently, Karras did not do enough azz kizzing over the gambling issue. [OUT]

7. Ricky Waters, RB, 9ers-Eagles-CHawks, 5 Pro Bowls, 3x 1st team All Pro, 20th NFL all-time rushing yards (10,643). May be better remembered by Philly and HOF voters for responding with "for who, for what" when asked why he did not extend to make a reception and instead avoided a head-on collision with a DB closing in fast. [OUT]

6. Ken Stabler, QB, Raiders, 15 years, 4 Pro Bowls, 2x 1st team All Pro, 70's all-decade team, 1974 NFL MVP, but weak arm that could survive his era and marginal career QB rating of 75. [OUT]

5. Andre Reed, WR, Bills-Skins, 16 years, 7 Pro Bowls, 2x 2nd team All Pro; 10th in NFL history in total career receptions (951) behind only Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Isaac Bruce, Hines Ward, Randy Moss, Tony Gonzalez, Terrell Owens, and Marvin Harrison; 12th in NFL history in total career receiving yards (13,198); 12th in NFL history in total career touchdown receptions (87); [IN... someday... he played in an era (1985-2000) when the passing game was not the big emphasis it is today].

4. Jim Marshall, DE, Vikes, 20 years, 2 Pro Bowls, often remembered for the "Wrong Way Run", but was undersized and overpowered when teams ran at him. [OUT]

3. Jerome Bettis, RB, Rams-Steelers, 13 years, 6 Pro Bowls, 3x 1st team All Pro, 6th all-time NFL rushing yards (13,662) behind Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Curtis Martin, and LaDainian Tomlinson; and ahead of NFL HOFers Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Jim Brown, Marshall Faulk. [IN!]

2. Chris Carter, WR, Eagles-Vikes-Fins, 16 years, 8 Pro Bowls, 2x 1st team All Pro, 90's all-decade team, 4th all-time total career receptions (1101) behind only Jerry Rice, Tony Gonzalez, and Marvin Harrison; 8th in NFL history in total career receiving yards (13,899); 4th all-time career TDs (130) behind only Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss; not currently in the HOF... no wonder he seems so PO'd all the time. [IN!!!]

1. Jerry Kramer, G, Packers, 11 years (1958-68), 3 Pro Bowls, 5x 1st team All Pro, 60's all-decade team, reliable road-grader for the Packer Sweep, mowed em down. [IN]

All career stats from http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/... beautiful.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Hi guys how are you doing? Guess you missed some real freaky things at the games. Who needs NFL then?

Swimming and "women" (aka alien) running is doped up to the gills, some NFL players might dream of.
The big fix is in (badminton thrown games (confirmed) to prevent high ranked teams in the next round; a boxer went down 6 times and got awarded the win (confirmed); some guy just said 2 reds were given to the opponent of Brazil coz they had problems to advance in the soccer tournament).
A whole lot no names scapegoats got busted, while the freaks are protected. It´s circus, far worse than cycling...

9. St. Louis (Jeff Fisher's new staff)

LOL. He´s clearly lower. No guts, cowardly game planning. Obscure assistants. Come on guys we know it...

.......

Could you imagine i thought Jim Marshall is surely in the HoF. A big miss from my side. Anyway, he´s my No. 1. Karras don´t belong there. That´s obvious. Anderson should be in the HoF. Bad voters. Hope Guy makes it. Best punter next to Lechler...

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Anderson should be in the HoF. Bad voters. Hope Guy makes it. Best punter next to Lechler...

Anderson (1971-1986):
4-time Pro Bowler & 1-time First-Team All-Pro
- 28th all-time career passing yards (32,838)
- 33rd all-time career passing TDs (197)
- 48th all-time career INTs (160)
- 42nd all-time career passer rating (81.9)
- tied 94th all-time career comebacks (10)
- tied 80th all-time career game winning drives (15)
In some of these categories you can find some QBs who are in the HOF who have worse numbers, including the likes of Bart Starr and Sonny Jorgensen. Even Elway has a lower career completion percentage.

In a game that mattered: 1981 SB vs 9ers: Bengals lost 21-26.
Passing Stats for Anderson in that SB:
Cmp Att Yds TD Int Lng
25... 34. 300. 2... 2... 49

So maybe you could make a case for him in the HOF, but in the big game that mattered vs the 9ers in the 1981 SB, his numbers for TDs/INTs were very average even though yards and cmp% was good. But no SB wins. I would also be looking for someone with a few more Pro Bowls and/or All Pro totals. So I leave him out.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

It's absolutely stupid and a travesty that Ray Guy and Jerry Kramer aren't in the HOF.

Guy is the best punter ever and changed the game a bit. Both hang time and coffin corner were terms created because of him. True that Shane Lechler has broken most of Guy's records. But at some point Lechler should end up in the HOF as well. As to the "every down" that's nonsense. Offensive and Defensive players are not on the field every down. And when they play, they often are not involved in plays. Lineman are, no doubt, but many others are not.

Kramer is somehow left out because voters look back and think there's enough Packers already in the HOF, or some stupid reason like that. And a natural bias against many linemen as you don't see them on highlight reels. Especially older players. Stupid.

I asked Brock this very question about players who should be in the HOF, I named a few (most on this list) and he agreed Guy belonged. Brock also said that they had to put Jerry in there, it was incredible that he's not. Brock also chuckled that his family wants to lobby to get him (Brock) into the hall. But Brock said as long as Kramer's not in there, he's in good company, as Jerry should by far go in first.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

It's absolutely stupid and a travesty that Ray Guy and Jerry Kramer aren't in the HOF.

Guy is the best punter ever and changed the game a bit. Both hang time and coffin corner were terms created because of him. True that Shane Lechler has broken most of Guy's records. But at some point Lechler should end up in the HOF as well. As to the "every down" that's nonsense. Offensive and Defensive players are not on the field every down. And when they play, they often are not involved in plays. Lineman are, no doubt, but many others are not.

Kramer is somehow left out because voters look back and think there's enough Packers already in the HOF, or some stupid reason like that. And a natural bias against many linemen as you don't see them on highlight reels. Especially older players. Stupid.

I asked Brock this very question about players who should be in the HOF, I named a few (most on this list) and he agreed Guy belonged. Brock also said that they had to put Jerry in there, it was incredible that he's not. Brock also chuckled that his family wants to lobby to get him (Brock) into the hall. But Brock said as long as Kramer's not in there, he's in good company, as Jerry should by far go in first.

The Hall of "Every Down" is nonsense. That was exactly my point. That is as ridiculous as leaving someone like Guy out of the Hall.

You mean this Brock who I think you've talked about before... always good to get a real insider's viewpoint. If you get a chance, ask him what he thinks of the reduced penalty for Vilma to a half season. I think that is pretty fair.

Well, you've heard. I know IT!!!!! But I'll break the ice anyway. Guess who showed up in my team's town and got a 1-year deal? I cringed when I heard. But you can't argue with the philosophy of potential high value for low payout. Still, I think Seattle's kicking the tires a little too much with this one. I just hope there's a clause in the contract where if TO starts to become a negative distraction that they can cut him loose without any guaranteed money. But he ran a 4.45. So IF he can stay team focused without whining and produce, I'll be happy and that would probably justify being given an N-th chance (where N is some number > 3 or 4).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think if anyone could get TO to be productive, it would be Carroll. And it's only $1m, and I'm sure not guaranteed much (if any). I'm more surprised that Seattle cut Doug Baldwin and Mike Williams at WR. But who knows what's going in on their camp for sure. Carroll is a people person, and if anyone can read what the future holds for players like TO (or Williams) it's him.

I have moved across the country and won't (likely) be seeing Brock anytime soon. When I last talked to him Bountygate broke and he was bothered by it, even though he came up during the dirty times when stuff like head slaps and chop blocks were legal. That's all I remember.

Speaking of the Saints, if anyone watched the Hall of Fame game, a few questions were answered. The Saints 1st team offense looked plenty good, and Curtis Lofton looks like he will more than fill Jonathan Vilma's shoes at LB.

The other question answered is how will scab refs do? And the answer is about as good as last time this happened. A couple botched calls, and a lot of no-calls. They didn't ruin the game, but the NFL has got to get their refs on the field before the pre-season is over.

BTW: Yes Foxxy, the doping and corruption at the Olympics has to top the NFL and Cycling even (though if the UCI succeeds at making the Lance issue go away, Cycling will top all sports. Maybe ever!). At least the judges in the gymnastics didn't give the US girl who fell on her ass the gold (like they did with the Chinese girl four years ago).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Here are the Associated Press power rankings for 2012.

I personally think this list is balls. For example, NYG and SF are too high (I don't think the Giants are even going to make the playoffs.) The Chargers are too high. KC and Ari should move up a few spots. The Cowboys are too low as well, unless you expect them to implode. Chargers are too high.

1 Green Bay Packers
2 New England Patriots
3 New York Giants
4 San Francisco 49ers
5 Baltimore Ravens
6 Houston Texans
7 Pittsburgh Steelers
8 Philadelphia Eagles
9 New Orleans Saints
10 Denver Broncos
11 Chicago Bears
11 Detroit Lions
13 Atlanta Falcons
14 Cincinnati Bengals
15 Dallas Cowboys
16 San Diego Chargers
17 New York Jets
18 Kansas City Chiefs
19 Buffalo Bills
20 Carolina Panthers
21 Tennessee Titans
22 Seattle Seahawks
23 Arizona Cardinals
24 Oakland Raiders
25 Washington Redskins
26 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
27 Miami Dolphins
28 St. Louis Rams
29 Minnesota Vikings
30 Cleveland Browns
31 Jacksonville Jaguars
32 Indianapolis Colts