New site design

[pedrospeeps]

My answer

This must be a nightmare for you guys... I'm going away on a cycling vacation for 3 weeks and will only be checking the web results occasionally. Hopefully the bugs will be worked out by then and I'll feel good about keeping you as my main source.... Not the case at the moment though, it would be a shame for you to lose a previously loyal readership, which I think has been pretty large. BTW if you really want to feel some hostility, just put in a good word for Lance Armstrong on the Road Forum... That might make you feel better about the redesign reaction...

That did it for me...that guy has single handed destroyed cycling...and I have some connection with him! Off the point. The point is that this website was close to our hearts for such a longtime, it is like a death in the family, you just feel helpless and the powers that be don't seem to get it. My hope is that we all get through this, but I just can't look at the site at the moment, it just does not work...I have looked a few times today, ever hopeful I will be able to read it again, but the more I look the worse it gets. I just don't understand what has happened. We had a great website a few days ago and now we don't and nothing but a roll back would do it for me...I must be getting old like others on these posts, but I and so open to new ideas, this just insults my intelligence. Has any of the staff ever used the website in the real world?

 

[morephyous]

Really, the publishers should listen to the people taking the time to post as I really do believe you don't understand your core readership. I mean if someone like Jono L replies saying they don't like it, do you know what that means? If you guys are into cycling you'll know he's not often inclined to join a forum and post. Imagine similar minded people discussing they don't like the new CN at a coffee break. Word gets around, and gets around quick.

 

[Greg Johnson]

Gee buddy hate to tell you this but a lot of your readership also has the same woes and works long hours.

I worked for a long time just up the road from Gerard Knapps little hole in the wall upstairs office in Bourke St. Surry Hills and used to ride home after 12-14 hour working days in the dark so I dont really care if you are putting in long days. You operate a 24/7 business, I work in one, everyone has their issues. Get over it.

Not asking for a violin, just pointing out the fact that someone sleeps doesn't actually translate into a conspiracy theory or evil plot. I was in that office, you should have waved.

Sayonara. You arent listening, so why should anyone bother. By the way, dont you think a lot of your advertisers are reading this? Do you listen to them, or feed them the same self denying line of BS?

We're listening to constructive feedback and making changes based on that. Some aspects we cannot change - like simply going back to the old website. We've welcomed feedback in the context of a new website with open arms, so far have only had to make one unpopular decision (spoilers) and continue to welcome feedback.

I have absolutely no doubt our advertisers are reading this - I'm more than confident that some of the posts in this thread will be by them or their employees. But we have welcomed comment - which anyone can make openly here or privately via the e-mail addresses provided as they see fit, that includes our advertisers - and we have/are making changes based on that.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[ElChingon]

I'm confident that - once we get the current problems ironed out -

But not certain. The site you stole/bought/borrowed it off of has the same issues to this day. Buy crappy software you end up with crappy results.

 

[fourstagesinoneday]

I like a lot of the new features. I can happily live with the design (once the huge acres of white space are utilised on some pages). I can wait with baited breadth for the changes in how results are presented.

What disappoints me is the response to complaints about mobile functionality. I've posted at length about the problems, including possible ways to corroborate the problems, and haven't even received the courtesy of an acknowledgement. The site has asked for constructive feedback and then when it's received some members of the redevelopment team would rather get into an ego-fuelled fourm argument about how much they've invested in the redesign than address the problems being described.

Only two "official" comments I've seen addressing the issues are "it looks ok on my mates iPhone" and "it works fine on my Nokia 5800 if you install this browser". Others disagree with both, and point out it's total failure of functionality on other mobile devices. You shouldn't need to install another browser to view a website, and the browser suggested's own official Simulator has big problems with the site (though strangely handles bikeradar.com's carousel).

 

[pedrospeeps]

It would be helpful

Dear Greg
I am not sure I understand the spoiler problem, it does not worry me ( I can't read the page anyway), but it would be helpful if you could explain why this must stay as it seems to be a deal breaker for many people...why is is so important to you..it's only words, that could change if the decision was wrong or bad . Why tell the winner in the headline when you could hide it from the reader...to me that makes more sense, but then we have fallen down the rabbit hole these last few days.

 

[zyxwvu]

Stefan keeps pointing out how lucky we have to be with the new site, as we are able to visit cyclingnews FOR FREE.

Well Stefan, how about all the info you get for free, used to generate revenues. Are you regularly paying riders to get some quotes from them, are you paying tv-stations to broadcast the races that brings the people here? Are you sponsoring races that form the source of this very website? Etc. etc.
Some exceptions apart, I Don't think so.

You're reversing things Stefan. You should be happy people actually come and visit your site and enable you to generate money, we should not be seen as the lucky ones who can visit your site for free.

 

[drfunk000]

I totally subscribe to that idea, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Unfortunately, the site was broken, and needed fixing. The system was too outdated to be maintainable, and the creaking look was not an attractive proposition to advertisers, who pay for you to see it for free.

The creaking look? How about craigslist?

 

[Greg Johnson]

What disappoints me is the response to complaints about mobile functionality. I've posted at length about the problems, including possible ways to corroborate the problems, and haven't even received the courtesy of an acknowledgement. The site has asked for constructive feedback and then when it's received some members of the redevelopment team would rather get into an ego-fuelled fourm argument about how much they've invested in the redesign than address the problems being described.

Only two "official" comments I've seen addressing the issues are "it looks ok on my mates iPhone" and "it works fine on my Nokia 5800 if you install this browser". Others disagree with both, and point out it's total failure of functionality on other mobile devices. You shouldn't need to install another browser to view a website, and the browser suggested's own official Simulator has big problems with the site (though strangely handles bikeradar.com's carousel).

fourstagesinoneday - good point. Let me say that we're aware of the mobile issues and we will get to that, but the website must come first. This is not because we don't care about the mobile audience, I in fact acknowledge that due to the outdoor nature of the sport we love it's a very important area that we need to address.

Rather, there are fundamental issues with the way our race sections are currently structured. This is a core problem that must first be solved before we move on to ensuring usability on mobile platforms. There's no point having the website display on mobile devices if areas like this have basic navigation and display issues (things like not being able to click 'show more' to see full results, which we're removing).

I can say with certainty the mobile area is one on the cards - we had data mined last night to determine the most popular devices and their browsers in anticipation of addressing these issues.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[Crikey]

I have to agree with those who don't like the new format

Cyclingnews.com is one of the few sites I look at every day. I'm 53 years old, but have been riding, sometimes competitively, for about 35 years. Starting with the early spring races I used to use your site to check the results of each stage of each major race, scan the latest news, check the new technical gear, scan the interesting photos, and otherwise just enjoy the heck out of your site. Now, I have no clue where to get the stuff that was so intuitively available before. It looks as though you've tried to cram as much stuff onto the home page as possible, and in doing so have lost the basic signposts that allowed me to find what I wanted to see. Now it takes several clicks to see the complete write-up, results, and find photos of the latest race stage where before it was just one click to see everything about it. I'm not sure what the new design does for you but I find it harder to use than the old format. I always preferred this site to Velonews, Daily Peleton, and others, now not so much. A buddy of mine publishes the Cyclingrevealed website...maybe it's time to give that a try.

 

[Koriyama]

Speed of New Website (or Lack of)

Thanks to Daniel for responding to everyone's feedback about the new site. Much appreciated.

I must take issue with his comment stating that his tests show the new website to be faster.

It is NOT FASTER. I spend more time waiting for pages to do their thing (load, refresh, scroll) than actually reading and looking at the website. This is true on my home computer, my work computer, and one friend's computer.

Your tests are in contrast to my experience, and I'm sure to many, many, many other cyclingnews fans' experience as well.

There is something wrong with your tests, and not my experience.
Your tests are giving you false and wrong information about the speed of the new site.

I think this is a crucial and serious issue. Format and appearance I can adapt to over time, regardless of whether I like it or not. But, the physical inability to use the new website (because it is soooooo slow) cannot be adapted to.

If this problem is not eventually fixed, there will be no point in visiting cyclingnews for me and the many other cyclingnews fans.

Please examine the validity of your speed tests, and please improve the physical ability to use the site.

 

[fourstagesinoneday]

fourstagesinoneday - good point. Let me say that we're aware of the mobile issues and we will get to that, but the website must come first. This is not because we don't care about the mobile audience, I in fact acknowledge that due to the outdoor nature of the sport we love it's a very important area that we need to address.

Rather, there are fundamental issues with the way our race sections are currently structured. This is a core problem that must first be solved before we move on to ensuring usability on mobile platforms. There's no point having the website display on mobile devices if areas like this have basic navigation and display issues (things like not being able to click 'show more' to see full results, which we're removing).

I can say with certainty the mobile area is one on the cards - we had data mined last night to determine the most popular devices and their browsers in anticipation of addressing these issues.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

Thanks for the response Greg - there's plenty of us out there who will be more than happy to beta test for you on various devices and browsers as and when the mobile improvements come online. There is a thread further down the page re: mobile usability which might be worth "stickying".

With the expansion of WiFi I've found more and more of my CN.com usage switching to mobile devices, and I'm sure there's plenty of others in the same scenario, hence the concern with getting the site to work when we're on the move.

 

[Greg Johnson]

Thanks for the response Greg - there's plenty of us out there who will be more than happy to beta test for you on various devices and browsers as and when the mobile improvements come online. There is a thread further down the page re: mobile usability which might be worth "stickying".

With the expansion of WiFi I've found more and more of my CN.com usage switching to mobile devices, and I'm sure there's plenty of others in the same scenario, hence the concern with getting the site to work when we're on the move.

fourstagesinoneday thanks for the offer - we'll keep that in mind.

As you say, it just makes sense. You're out for a ride, want to show a mate the latest bit of kit you saw or check results, see where a race is at in the live coverage etc. Yes, I completely agree.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[yeagermeister]

Greg, Stefan, John, Susan...

Do you yourselves like the spoilers? Would you visit CN looking for race coverage knowing that you'd know the result before knowing how the result happened?

I can see how it is "news", but it's also the thing that makes cycling so beautiful- the suspense of the finish. Do you remember the Olympic coverage where NBC put the photo of Sammy Sanchez coming across the line with arms raised behind Jim Lampley as he said "and now, the conclusion of the men's road race!" Why did I watch NBC and whatever sports I had to sit through to see the finish? For the drama, which was completely ruined for me.

If nothing else, this should be one thing that you have a site poll for, and follow the results. It seems to be a hot topic that has been largely ignored other than Greg's comment that it was here to stay.

I understand that the site update was needed, and we'll all get used to it eventually. I'm a habitual reader, every day since 1998 or so, but if I start to take breaks from CN during most of May, June, July, and September, and also stop looking at it every Saturday and Sunday of Classics season, I will stop visiting entirely, and I'll just have to accept that the last bastion of spoiler-free cycling news has itself been spoiled.

 

[titan_90]

Future Publishing acquired Cyclingnews.com on July 3, 3007 - it purchased the website and brought the existing staff - myself included - with it. However the involvement between Cyclingnews and Future Publishing goes much deeper than that.

John Stevenson, who you'll have seen around this thread and is heavily involved with this project, is one of the original staff members from the Knapp Communications period and was involved with the 2002 re-design. The race sections and photo galleries on this website were all created with tools built by John himself.

Given how strong a relationship our readership have obviously built with that incarnation of the website, I'm confident that - once we get the current problems ironed out - we're only going to build on that and in 10 years time we're probably going to be in the same situation again.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

If this is true than you all should be ashamed of what bikeradar 2.0 sorry I meant cyclingnews.com has become. Future Publishing must have some really good Kool-Aid.

 

[rogeraider]

rogeraider

First let me say how much I appreciate your site. I am addicted to cycling news and particulatly enjoy getting up in the morning after a big stage or a classic and reading the live report before I look at the results. The blow by blow descriptions help you feel as though you're actually there. It's great!

So far I'm not a fan of the new layout though. There are a number of things that detract from the enjoyment for the user, but the overall effect is that the new site is made of fairyfloss whereas the old site was made of sacher torte.

The way information is presented lacks weight, lacks importance.It is not dense enough for the reader to take it seriously. When you click on to a report it seems the page is full of air and what information there is is pushed over onto the left hand side instead of filling the page. The reports I've read also seem to be on a diet.

The headlines in pale purple don't stand out and underlining everything defeats the purpose of underlining, it merely produces a cluttered look.

The constant flashups are annoying and distracting and make me feel like I'm wading through the trash pages on 9MSN.

The central news column takes up more space but is less enticing than before.The old system of block updates had you hanging out for the next entry, the new layout lacks immediacy.

'Today On Cycling News' again reminds me of 9MSN and is a waste of time because it's not today is it ! It's today and yesterday and the day before etc.

It seems the changes were made purely for the sake of change and were made by people who don't understsnd the fundamentals of design.

Good design is all about form and function and while the new site has pretty colours and moving pictures it lacks gravity and it lacks intuitivness.

Sorry to be negative but I enjoyed using the old site a lot more.

Rogeraider

 

[Greg Johnson]

Greg, Stefan, John, Susan...

Do you yourselves like the spoilers? Would you visit CN looking for race coverage knowing that you'd know the result before knowing how the result happened?

I can see how it is "news", but it's also the thing that makes cycling so beautiful- the suspense of the finish. Do you remember the Olympic coverage where NBC put the photo of Sammy Sanchez coming across the line with arms raised behind Jim Lampley as he said "and now, the conclusion of the men's road race!" Why did I watch NBC and whatever sports I had to sit through to see the finish? For the drama, which was completely ruined for me.

If nothing else, this should be one thing that you have a site poll for, and follow the results. It seems to be a hot topic that has been largely ignored other than Greg's comment that it was here to stay.

I understand that the site update was needed, and we'll all get used to it eventually. I'm a habitual reader, every day since 1998 or so, but if I start to take breaks from CN during most of May, June, July, and September, and also stop looking at it every Saturday and Sunday of Classics season, I will stop visiting entirely, and I'll just have to accept that the last bastion of spoiler-free cycling news has itself been spoiled.

The spoiler issue hasn't been ignored - the managing editor confirmed publicly last night in the official, locked thread we have established here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1331

This thread has been established so people know where to go for official updates on how the changes being made from the feedback we're receiving are progressing.

We're still getting people outraged that we won't reconsider things like the click 'show more' to see the full results, an issue we've already agreed needs changing and is currently being addressed - this has led to the establishment of this thread.

Due to the quantity of responses, it's not possible to expect everyone to read every post, so we hope this makes it easier. Of course, we still encourage feedback and further responses to those announcements in this thread.

Thanks
Greg Johnson

 

[ihatescarves]

Flash is easy to block out at the user end. The page design should flow appropriately.

Yes, but not so easy on a site-by-site basis.

Is there any chance you might be able to add something to the source of the page (such as class="cyclingnews" on the opening html tag) so that those of us who don't care for certain aspects of the new design might be able to easily write site-specific user CSS files? If I could do that I'd be able to hide the pointless Flash and the news headlines and get a view that looks almost like the cyclingnews of old...

 

[ianfra]

Hey Greg. I think you guys would make great politicians. Have you thought about changing career? '"Thanks for the feedback .... but we've made our decision!" What kind of user-friendly response is that?
Its a fact of life that designers aren't users - I don't know if you read my earlier posts on that issue. Take the IPC publication Cycle Sport and look at how the designers destroyed that! ProCycling is going the same way and now, you, (YOU-the last bastion of great cycling news) - have sadly passed on. No longer do you pop up on my little laptop as the first and last thing I see each day. No longer are you my source of information about my beloved sport. I don't understand why you are telling me and all your loyal followers to "F... off". But it hurts Greg. It hurts.

 

[scottsmack]

CN: "...we won't be changing the spoiler issue"

The only issue that I can think of at the moment (and I am still waking up) which won't be changing is the spoiler issue.

Thanks
Greg Johnson

My humble prediction is that spoilers will be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of defections. Lots of folks will get used to the changes, but there is a huge segment of your users who consider this to be a show stopper. It's astounding that an "editorial decision" would hold up in the face of such fury.

You should compare June 08 vs June 09 traffic patterns carefully. You may get a "curiosity bump", from the new site but once it stabilizes you'll know where you stand. In fact, why don't you publish it the stats so you can prove how meaningless all our *****ing was?

I apologize for being a little *****y myself, but a) I am shocked that CN is taking this position, and b) I am sad to see something of quality in my life go away. And no, I'm not being melodramatic. History is full of companies who respond to users' needs, survive and thrive. The ones that don't are merely forgotten.

I really did try to help.

Best of luck,
Scott

 

[yeagermeister]

The spoiler issue hasn't been ignored - the managing editor confirmed publicly last night in the official, locked thread we have established here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1331

Ah. I thought it was locked meaning for editorial conversation about how silly all of our responses were.

Kidding aside... I think that while most news is news in the end result, cycling is truly one of the only sports where the result is so dramatic and unknown that the lead-up to it is what matters, and not necessarily the winner. News of the CNN sort is not the same as what cycling has to offer (see my post from yesterday.) Again, is this something being driven by the "man"? Why are the spoilers here to stay? Just because it's what all news sites do? Does the owner want them and mandate it going forward?

I stopped reading VeloNews because they put the picture of the winner on the front page, unavoidable, within minutes of the race finish. You can't even get into their site without seeing that one piece of information, which to me (and by the looks of it, many of us), kills the buzz.

CN was diffrerent, and I read CN daily without worry that I would find out something I didn't want to know. At this point, I don't think any of us will find that safe haven again.

 

[titan_90]

The spoiler issue hasn't been ignored - the managing editor confirmed publicly last night in the official, locked thread we have established here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1331

This thread has been established so people know where to go for official updates on how the changes being made from the feedback we're receiving are progressing.

We're still getting people outraged that we won't reconsider things like the click 'show more' to see the full results, an issue we've already agreed needs changing and is currently being addressed - this has led to the establishment of this thread.

Due to the quantity of responses, it's not possible to expect everyone to read every post, so we hope this makes it easier. Of course, we still encourage feedback and further responses to those announcements in this thread.

Thanks
Greg Johnson

I could have gotten used to or even liked the redesign once some bugs that you have stated had been fixed. But the MAIN issue people are disgusted with is the spoiler headlines. Do your core viewers that have been built up in the last decade plus really mean nothing to you guys? If you wont or can't get rid of them is it really that hard to find a solution so everyone is happy? What about a page that has all of the links to the all the race info minus the spoilers? Hell use all the Flash and ads you want on it I don't care just give us a spoiler free area we can go to until we read the live race reports or can watch the race. Then we can view the rest of the material your site has to offer.

 

[slcbiker]

No, you didn't ignore the spoiler issue, you just didn't budge, or really seem to acknowledge you had thought it through.

Basically, what you said is, "we want to be like everyone else".

First of all, sports events are not like social/political/economic events, so comparing this to the BBC or CNN is a bogus comparison. If this were true, then no-one would bother buying tickets to watch said events. They'd just read the results.

But people like participatory viewing. You've never had a friend say something along the lines of "Don't tell me the Arsenal-ManU score, I've taped the game and am waiting to watch it"?

For many of us, those live reports are our only option to in effect "tape-it" as only the TDF (and this year the Giro) get much TV coverage. And in a compliment to your live reporting staff, I often liked their coverage better than the TV.

Nevermind however, it's a done deal. And while I may not abandon the site, I may use it less.

 

[Greg Johnson]

Hey Greg. I think you guys would make great politicians. Have you thought about changing career? '"Thanks for the feedback .... but we've made our decision!" What kind of user-friendly response is that?
I don't understand why you are telling me and all your loyal followers to "F... off". But it hurts Greg. It hurts.

Ianfra - there are a couple of aspects about the new website that I've been told are firm. One is that spoilers are staying, the other is that we are not going back to the old website.

I understand some people won't agree with these decisions, but I am told that on these topics the decisions are final and am just communicating this to you so you're informed. I'm not putting it the way you claim - but equally, I'm not leading anyone on. The new website is the new website - there's no point me leading you to believe otherwise if that is hard and fast fact.

I am trying to gain feedback on how we can improve the user experience within that context though.

Thanks
Greg Johnson

 

[Fiftygig]

Dear Greg
I am not sure I understand the spoiler problem, it does not worry me ( I can't read the page anyway), but it would be helpful if you could explain why this must stay as it seems to be a deal breaker for many people...why is is so important to you..it's only words, that could change if the decision was wrong or bad . Why tell the winner in the headline when you could hide it from the reader...to me that makes more sense, but then we have fallen down the rabbit hole these last few days.

This is an excellent point pedrospeeps

Greg & Team

I don't understand why spoilers with your race results must be an ultimatum. Surely you can achieve the same thing by splashing it all over your Breaking News section on the RHS if you must. This at least would give users the option of not looking at the RHS (very easy with the lovely modest format of the previous page). Judging by your own response, this is obviously something that you must tell you own bosses.

Also, the tabular presentation of the race events was extremely effective, with stage details, start list, results, main etc all neatly organised on the LHS of the page. It wasn't flashy but it was elegant. Please bring it back (particularly as these categories are another of the main reasons I visited CN and are now missing).

I for one don't understand why cleaning up the data management side of things and maintaining essentially the same much-loved front end are mutually exclusive.

Seems the only answer is advertising and corporate branding. If that is the case, why is it not possible to make a minor concession to accomodate the advertising but swallow the corporate pride and ditch the BR-style branding?... obviously your audience is not a fan of it (the underlines on the race results are indeed horrid).

I didn't go to CN for my news and results today. I got them from other sources such as official race sites and the UCI website, and I am actively looking for ways to replicate what for me was a perfect setup with the previous CN webpage. Results easily accessible with one click, profiles, start lists, but most importantly definitely no-spoilers!

Thanks for 10 great years CN but this is my bottom-line: Keep the spoilers and I am gone! (Greg's bosses whoever you are, take note of this!!)