New Ultegra WTF

[MavicMoto]

So the great and vaunted Shimano engineers release the new version of their workhorse group.
One thing: why is it not lighter? Sram Rival (third tier gruppo) weighs 2149g vs NewUlt's 2301g. And you know it will cost at least 50% more!
Did they solve the annoying feel from the front of the DA lever?
How about the poor no-trim feature?
The dodgy connector link in the chain SM-CN79 ?
How much will the outer ring cost replace, the DA is over $450 !?
Will the wheelset retail for less than the 100g lighter Mavic Ksyrium Elites ($625-$650 @ 1550gms)? Otherwise a nice effort from the wheel team.
And props to the brake guys; a big jump in stopping power, some from the pad compounds and some from the careful match with the levers. Still 43g heavier than the highly regarded Rival units.
And that RD is light, 190g! Lets hope it doesn't spend as much time wrapped over the top of the cassette as the New DuraAce unit!

 

[steelciocc]

From Vicenza with love...

Sounds like a lot of great reasons to switch to Centaur...

 

[hmronnow]

To author of the article on the new Ultegra group:
This is a tiny detail, but the weight reduction relative to current Ultegra SL is only 44g. The 107g you mention is weight difference between current UL and UL-SL. (I know - reading tables can be confusing)

 

[Dr. Wattini]

all these new releases of equipment are nothing but a marketing scam to fool one into spending hard earned dollars....

 

[MavicMoto]

To author of the article on the new Ultegra group:
This is a tiny detail, but the weight reduction relative to current Ultegra SL is only 44g. The 107g you mention is weight difference between current UL and UL-SL. (I know - reading tables can be confusing)

I think you misunderstood.
The weight difference was between Sram Rival and the New Ultegra. It is worse for all other Ultegra versions!

 

[hmronnow]

No, I did not misunderstand. I was refering to the article on CN "Tech news: Shimano launch new Ultegra groupset, April 2, 2009" by James Costley-White. Since CN has no feature for giving feedback on indivdual articles, I used the forum. And seeing that there was already a thread on this groupset, I used this thread. But, as said, the correction is a tiny detail.

 

[Pietro]

So the great and vaunted Shimano engineers release the new version of their workhorse group.
One thing: why is it not lighter? Sram Rival (third tier gruppo) weighs 2149g vs NewUlt's 2301g. And you know it will cost at least 50% more!
Did they solve the annoying feel from the front of the DA lever?
How about the poor no-trim feature?
The dodgy connector link in the chain SM-CN79 ?
How much will the outer ring cost replace, the DA is over $450 !?
Will the wheelset retail for less than the 100g lighter Mavic Ksyrium Elites ($625-$650 @ 1550gms)? Otherwise a nice effort from the wheel team.
And props to the brake guys; a big jump in stopping power, some from the pad compounds and some from the careful match with the levers. Still 43g heavier than the highly regarded Rival units.
And that RD is light, 190g! Lets hope it doesn't spend as much time wrapped over the top of the cassette as the New DuraAce unit!

Lets' remember a few things. 28 grams in an ounce. 150 grams, 5 ounces on a rider and bike package of around 87,000 or so gram 'package'.

Great bearings, long lasting chainrings, better cogsets and chains, much better brakes, front derailleur and rear derailleur action for shimano vs sram. Altho only 2 things can be measured, weight and price, functionality and longevity more than makes up for the 150 or so gram weight differences. Lighter isn't necessarily better but just lighter.

 

[Advancedone]

Pietro, I like your take on things. You have the wisdom of someone who actually KNOWS what they are talking about. Someone who actually works on bikes and considers more than just "that's what I ride so it must be best".
We may not always agree, but respect to you.

 

[Pietro]

Pietro, I like your take on things. You have the wisdom of someone who actually KNOWS what they are talking about. Someone who actually works on bikes and considers more than just "that's what I ride so it must be best".
We may not always agree, but respect to you.

Mille grazie

 

[LugHugger]

Mille grazie

For the record, I agree with both of you. However, as a cross rider, I know of several local and international riders who refuse to use new DA due to mechanical reliability issues.

Also, there is the open question regarding the ridiculous price for replacing an outer ring. I have only one bike, a cross bike, which I race during winter, ride year round and commute on. This bike is set up with SRAM Rival. Setting aside reliability issues, if I wanted to ride new Shimano DA/Ultegra, what is the availability of 46/48T outer chainrings? And what is the cost?

I realise that this is a niche issue but designed obsolescence does irritate me.

 

[Bicyclestreet]

Terrific info. Thanks

 

[Pietro]

For the record, I agree with both of you. However, as a cross rider, I know of several local and international riders who refuse to use new DA due to mechanical reliability issues.

Also, there is the open question regarding the ridiculous price for replacing an outer ring. I have only one bike, a cross bike, which I race during winter, ride year round and commute on. This bike is set up with SRAM Rival. Setting aside reliability issues, if I wanted to ride new Shimano DA/Ultegra, what is the availability of 46/48T outer chainrings? And what is the cost?

I realise that this is a niche issue but designed obsolescence does irritate me.

Well, I would have to take a 7900 or 6700 ring off and see if you could just replace the rings. They are 130mm BCD, hopefully they have 'normal' holes in the crank arm and normal little shelves. The chainring bolts screw into the 7900/6700 big rings so new chainring bolts and hopefully you would NOT need to change the small ring also. TA, is available in 46/48t.

 

[MavicMoto]

Outer ring prices

That New DuraAce outer ring is really cool. Made of two sheets of aluminum, it is laterally very stiff, which made the front shifting really crisp.
BUT it costs $450 to replace. NewUlt will be less but what the hell?
Interchangeable with anyone's 130BCD ring otherwise.

 

[fiftyfour eleven]

Excellent post Pietro couldn't agree more with your sentiments.
You obviously have both feet parked in the real world of cycling.

 

[Black Dog]

Hold on a minute.

Great bearings, long lasting chainrings, better cogsets and chains, much better brakes, front derailleur and rear derailleur action for shimano vs sram. Altho only 2 things can be measured, weight and price, functionality and longevity more than makes up for the 150 or so gram weight differences. Lighter isn't necessarily better but just lighter.

Ok let us all be clear on a few facts. No one really knows what the longevity and long term functionality of the new group will be. Any statements about this come from the marketing department at Shimano. Only time will tell. It is really hard to get real data out of the sea of marketing hyperbola. Most people ride shimano because most people ride shimano, not because it is better or lasts longer. It because of a lack of options from the bike makers and because people assume that if a lot of people use something that it must be good (see Microsoft Windows as an example of the herd mentality).

I am not a luddite or a Shimano basher (I ride dura-ace (7800)). I can say any increase in durability over the 7800 series chains would be nice. I used one and went to SRAM after it stretched out in less than 2000km. I think that shimano is resting heavily on its laurels and has lost its way. Campy and SRAM are really going to make some serious inroads on the Shimano market share. Unless shimano pulls a big rabbit out of its hat, myslef and many others will jump to Campy or SRAM when there current generation of Shimano wears out. Even the pros will not ride the new 7900 as can be demonstrated by the numerous teams that are switching back to 7800.

 

[justme]

Black Dog, I agree with much of what you wrote except for a couple spots.

Durability. If you ask most pro riders off the record, they will tell you they prefer Shimano. It's not that it's more durable, but rather that it handles contamination better than Campy and Sram. Where Shimano has screwed up this year is that new DA and Ult don't deal as well with contamination as previous versions.

On market share. Campy is not gaining market share, in fact Campy is loosing market share. Sram is gaining quickly.

Campy is in the same boat as Shimano, and possibly even worse. Since the design and introduction of 11spd was poorly thought out, there are lots of issues with common items such as wheels not being compatible with 11spd. That's fine for some of the pro's but if you are on a team with Campy and Mavic as sponsors you've been having nothing but headaches.

Shimanos big rabbit is Di2. And honestly I have to say it's a very, very impressive rabbit, and the short comings of 7900 only make it look moreso. None of the pro's that I know that have ridden Di2 have had any negative comments about it. I can't remember the last time there was a group about which that could be said. Just wait two years for the Ultegra version and watch Shimano take back some of that market from Sram. The only people that have had anything bad to say about Di2 are people who have never ridden it.

 

[Pietro]

Black Dog, I agree with much of what you wrote except for a couple spots.

Durability. If you ask most pro riders off the record, they will tell you they prefer Shimano. It's not that it's more durable, but rather that it handles contamination better than Campy and Sram. Where Shimano has screwed up this year is that new DA and Ult don't deal as well with contamination as previous versions.

On market share. Campy is not gaining market share, in fact Campy is loosing market share. Sram is gaining quickly.

Campy is in the same boat as Shimano, and possibly even worse. Since the design and introduction of 11spd was poorly thought out, there are lots of issues with common items such as wheels not being compatible with 11spd. That's fine for some of the pro's but if you are on a team with Campy and Mavic as sponsors you've been having nothing but headaches.

Shimanos big rabbit is Di2. And honestly I have to say it's a very, very impressive rabbit, and the short comings of 7900 only make it look moreso. None of the pro's that I know that have ridden Di2 have had any negative comments about it. I can't remember the last time there was a group about which that could be said. Just wait two years for the Ultegra version and watch Shimano take back some of that market from Sram. The only people that have had anything bad to say about Di2 are people who have never ridden it.

-shimano more durable than Campagnolo? Not the levers. Dump some sand in each and see which works after that.

-Campagnolo's sales have increased every year since 1992 and probably will for 2009. Campagnolo does almost zero OEM, shimano did a lot, now many are shown with sram, both road and MTB. shimano is the one losing market share AND sram OE pricing is 'too good to be true'. If they continue, they will lose money since they are essentially losing $ on OEM kits.

-Which wheels are not compatible with 11s? You mention those that don't like Di2 haven't ridden it. Have you seen wheels that cannot accept a 11s cogset? If it had a 10s hub, it will work with a 11s cogset. List please. You imply this is a huge problem, which it is not.

-Problem with Di2? Yep, $5000 for a 8 piece group plus battery. Add the mythical carbon crank and almost $6000. It is fast and accurate but so are the groups now made that are mechanical. It answers no question, solves no problem with regards to the groups from the 3 makers now.

 

[Wallace]

I think 2009 will be remembered as the year when cycling component manufacturers collectively lost their minds. I know R & D takes years and Shimano and Campy had no way of knowing that the world's economies would melt down just when they introduced the most expensive groups ever marketed, but that's what happened. $1000.00 for a Di2 fd? You can get a complete Chorus 10 group for around that. But Di2 self-trims! There's one problem that's really destroyed the quality of my rides over the years. 7900 is by all accounts a failure and SRAM Red has no shortage of problems. And who needs 11 speeds? The demand for Super Record is so low that Campy isn't making enough of it to keep the pro teams stocked. Liquigas rides on Record. Here's a good slogan for Campy: Super Record: Ivan Basso isn't good enough for it, but you are. I ride Record 10 and compared to the 11 it's an amazing bargain.

The only bright spot in all this stupidity is, surprisingly, Di2: everyone I know who's ridden it loves it, and everyone in the stores is confident that, as with all new technology, with time the price will drop sharply and the bugs will be worked out. But until then, I don't know anyone, anyone, who would even think of spending $5000.00 on a group.

 

[justme]

Wallace I can't agree with you more. This is the year that all the manufacturers seem to have lost their mind. None of the mechanical groups offer any significant improvement, and none can justify the pricing.

Pietro. Just to clear things up, I'm not a Campy hater, I have Campy on more of my bikes than both Shimano and Sram combined. However, that doesn't stop me from talking about it's bad side as well as it's good side.

Sales and market share are two different things. You can actually increase total sales and decrease market share at the same time in several ways. If you are talking "sales" in terms of cash, you simply charge more and sell less. If you are talking volume you simply increase your volume but at a lower rate than the increase in total bikes sold.

As for compatibility issues with 11spd. I never said it was a big deal, simply that it was an issue. All problems can be corrected with some thought, and some already have. But just to assure you that I'm not as crazy as you think I am.

Zipp has reported a fix for their hubs not being compatible with 11spd. They made a custom spacer that had to be fitted inside the hub between the bearing and the body. You can read about it on their site.

White Industries has this on their website, ....Unique to the H2 is our titanium freehub body in a choice of Shimano or Campy* configurations. Titanium, we feel, is the best choice in the freewheel application since it is nearly as light as aluminum and has the equivalent strength to many forms of steel. Made in the USA

* not compatible with Campy 11 speed

Here's a letter from Mavic that was posted on the web,

1. Every Mavic ED10 wheel is compatible with Campy 11 speed with our new Campy 11 spacer with the exception of the 5 below....

2. The Five wheels that currently don't work: (I will further divide these up into 2 separate issues)
-Cosmic Carbon SL
-R-sys Premium
-R-sys
-CC Power-tap SL
-CC Power-tap Pro

...We of course love our good friends at Campagnolo and their fine products but this situation has been particularly challenging for us to come up with solutions after the product has been introduced on the market. We have only been able to work on this since after the trade shows. We have worked very hard in a short period of time to deliver our customers solutions for needs. Please extend a thanks to the shops and consumers for their patience on this matter. The information above is almost complete and we will get back to you on the few little bits of info still to come.

But of course companies like Zipp and Mavic are small in the wheel world and nobody should expect a cassette to work with wheels from such obscure companies.

 

[Pietro]

Wallace I can't agree with you more. This is the year that all the manufacturers seem to have lost their mind. None of the mechanical groups offer any significant improvement, and none can justify the pricing.

Pietro. Just to clear things up, I'm not a Campy hater, I have Campy on more of my bikes than both Shimano and Sram combined. However, that doesn't stop me from talking about it's bad side as well as it's good side.

Sales and market share are two different things. You can actually increase total sales and decrease market share at the same time in several ways. If you are talking "sales" in terms of cash, you simply charge more and sell less. If you are talking volume you simply increase your volume but at a lower rate than the increase in total bikes sold.

As for compatibility issues with 11spd. I never said it was a big deal, simply that it was an issue. All problems can be corrected with some thought, and some already have. But just to assure you that I'm not as crazy as you think I am.

Zipp has reported a fix for their hubs not being compatible with 11spd. They made a custom spacer that had to be fitted inside the hub between the bearing and the body. You can read about it on their site.

White Industries has this on their website, ....Unique to the H2 is our titanium freehub body in a choice of Shimano or Campy* configurations. Titanium, we feel, is the best choice in the freewheel application since it is nearly as light as aluminum and has the equivalent strength to many forms of steel. Made in the USA

* not compatible with Campy 11 speed

Here's a letter from Mavic that was posted on the web,

1. Every Mavic ED10 wheel is compatible with Campy 11 speed with our new Campy 11 spacer with the exception of the 5 below....

2. The Five wheels that currently don't work: (I will further divide these up into 2 separate issues)
-Cosmic Carbon SL
-R-sys Premium
-R-sys
-CC Power-tap SL
-CC Power-tap Pro

...We of course love our good friends at Campagnolo and their fine products but this situation has been particularly challenging for us to come up with solutions after the product has been introduced on the market. We have only been able to work on this since after the trade shows. We have worked very hard in a short period of time to deliver our customers solutions for needs. Please extend a thanks to the shops and consumers for their patience on this matter. The information above is almost complete and we will get back to you on the few little bits of info still to come.

But of course companies like Zipp and Mavic are small in the wheel world and nobody should expect a cassette to work with wheels from such obscure companies.

Fair enough but where I work, handbuilt wheels are the norm, not wheels out of boxes. Interesting you mentioned the R-Sys, probably a poorer design of a wheel doesn't exist(recall aside).

The bike biz has been flat for more than a decade but in terms of OE, shimano's share has been reduced significantly where Campagnolo paltry share is essentially unchanged.

BTW, I had a DA 10s cogset I tried to install on a new Zipp wheel and the cogset hit the hub body, ith the supplied 1mm shimano spacer. A second one solved the problem.

Of the groups now offered, I still like the feel of the lever of Campagnolo, in spite of the fact that it looks like a raygun.

But you are right, thousands for the parts that make the frame go down the road is astounding. All three need to take a step back but to what?

The genie is out and people clamor for that latest gizmo, regardless of how dum it is. Cycling 'news' sites and mags don't help when they fawn over every last gadget.

 

[LugHugger]

Getting back to new Ultegra.....

I ride about 300km per week. I don't know if that is average for most of this forums' users or not. It's ball park for the group of 10-20 guys and girls that I ride with on and off. Most of our group ride Rival, 105/Ultegra/SL and Chorus/Centaur.

None of the group rides top end stuff from any of the manufacturers. We can't afford to. Or more accurately, we can't afford to replace top end kit regularly. 90% of us ride hand built wheels for the same reason.

How many of us actually are able to ride the top end stuff and care how it performs?

 

[Nevermind]

First off, most teams are having issues with the new DA 7900 rear derailleur. They still use the rest of the group, but change the rear derailleur because of a stiffer pulley cage on 7800.

On the new Ultegra, I for one think it looks real nice. It's a bit lighter then the now old SL. If the shifting is equal or better, I for one will be happy. I really like the new shifters, they feel really good in hand (tested the DA 7900 and they look about the same in shape).

We will see what the new price is. All in all, I think there are some nice improvement on the Ultegra and they need to keep improving the group as the years pass.

 

[BrandonT]

Well from the limited pictures of the new Ultegra group its hard to say whether or not they have worked out more of the kinks or not. It looks like they have placed a little more cover on the underside of the lever pivot to protect the internals a little better.
I have been using the DA 7900 crank and it is cross compatible with previous versions of DA and Ultegra (Shimano doesnt want you to try to cross it with other versions). I have to say that it could be the best crank I have ever been able to use. I can only imagine how much better it would work with 7900 derailluer's. So I expect the new Ultegra crank will work just as well since its the same process just different materials.
I have Sram and Shimano groupo's and I will never buy the top of the line versions of either (I didnt buy the 7900 crank). Force and Ultegra will work way better for me in the long run.