- Aug 15, 2012
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Re: Re:
Your specifics are more to the point that I wanted to make. The win no matter what mentality is what has cycling in the fix it is. At some point sportsmanship and a sense of fair play have to be present, and Astanas current management structure precludes this. The logistical problems in replacing the Martinellis would be difficult to say the least, so Astana, with so many strikes against them, and the publicly stated mentality of their major ds, should reboot. I understand that a lot of people in cycling don't care about cycling, but to me and probably other fans it becomes insulting at a certain point. And unsustainable from a sponsorship point of view. Just one happy bike rider/wrencher's pov.
joe_papp said:I agree that no one should really cry for Nibali, since straight-up holding onto the team car is an infraction that everyone on the bike in the race knows is so verboten that it would be better to concede the time unless absolutely sure that you weren't being filmed or otherwise observed by a commissaire - or friend of a commissaire.yespatterns said:
But people who rage against Astana and suggest cycling would be better off w/o their sponsorship and the employment opportunities for riders and staff they bring to the sport are reasoning emotionally, at best, and difficult to take seriously.
Arguing that Astana team needs a management change and fundamental evolution of the organization's culture ... ok, that's reasonable. But just saying the team and sponsor should disappear...please.
Your specifics are more to the point that I wanted to make. The win no matter what mentality is what has cycling in the fix it is. At some point sportsmanship and a sense of fair play have to be present, and Astanas current management structure precludes this. The logistical problems in replacing the Martinellis would be difficult to say the least, so Astana, with so many strikes against them, and the publicly stated mentality of their major ds, should reboot. I understand that a lot of people in cycling don't care about cycling, but to me and probably other fans it becomes insulting at a certain point. And unsustainable from a sponsorship point of view. Just one happy bike rider/wrencher's pov.
- Jul 24, 2009
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It's an odd quote.
""We haven't seen each other since the Tour. There are lots of incidents in races, and what happens in the race stays in the race," Nibali said, adding: "At the time, I preferred not to mention it, but in 2010 Froome was excluded from the Giro for being towed by a car…"
What does Froome getting DQ'ed in 2010 have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't see why Nibali felt the need to throw that in.
No_Balls said:
It's an odd quote.
""We haven't seen each other since the Tour. There are lots of incidents in races, and what happens in the race stays in the race," Nibali said, adding: "At the time, I preferred not to mention it, but in 2010 Froome was excluded from the Giro for being towed by a car…"
What does Froome getting DQ'ed in 2010 have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't see why Nibali felt the need to throw that in.
- Aug 15, 2012
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- May 13, 2009
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One wonders the degree to which the sponsor(s) themselves inculcate this culture (or at least the Astana team culture as we perceive it)? After all, as Vinokourov has noted, Astana team was "created for [him] and thanks to [his] efforts"...and let's face it (even though I was Vino's #1 fan) - the guy is shady to say the least. Plus he's a product of the very evil Soviet sports school system.
Idk if cycling is really any more corrupt than Formula 1 though (for example).
Fair enough, and thanks for checking in and elaborating.yespatterns said:joe_papp said:I agree that no one should really cry for Nibali, since straight-up holding onto the team car is an infraction that everyone on the bike in the race knows is so verboten that it would be better to concede the time unless absolutely sure that you weren't being filmed or otherwise observed by a commissaire - or friend of a commissaire.yespatterns said:
But people who rage against Astana and suggest cycling would be better off w/o their sponsorship and the employment opportunities for riders and staff they bring to the sport are reasoning emotionally, at best, and difficult to take seriously.
Arguing that Astana team needs a management change and fundamental evolution of the organization's culture ... ok, that's reasonable. But just saying the team and sponsor should disappear...please.
Your specifics are more to the point that I wanted to make. The win no matter what mentality is what has cycling in the fix it is. At some point sportsmanship and a sense of fair play have to be present, and Astanas current management structure precludes this...Just one happy bike rider/wrencher's pov.
One wonders the degree to which the sponsor(s) themselves inculcate this culture (or at least the Astana team culture as we perceive it)? After all, as Vinokourov has noted, Astana team was "created for [him] and thanks to [his] efforts"...and let's face it (even though I was Vino's #1 fan) - the guy is shady to say the least. Plus he's a product of the very evil Soviet sports school system.
Idk if cycling is really any more corrupt than Formula 1 though (for example).
- Jul 24, 2009
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It's youtube. Don't read the comments goes without saying.
Thanks for the link.
BigMac said:
It's youtube. Don't read the comments goes without saying.
Thanks for the link.
- Aug 15, 2012
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I'm not sure if it's the sponsors or more so team management, but Astana is pretty much saying f-you especially with their latest comment that can be found on cyclingquotes basically blaming the fact it was filmed for hurting cycling. Lame lame lame.
joe_papp said:Fair enough, and thanks for checking in and elaborating.yespatterns said:joe_papp said:I agree that no one should really cry for Nibali, since straight-up holding onto the team car is an infraction that everyone on the bike in the race knows is so verboten that it would be better to concede the time unless absolutely sure that you weren't being filmed or otherwise observed by a commissaire - or friend of a commissaire.yespatterns said:
But people who rage against Astana and suggest cycling would be better off w/o their sponsorship and the employment opportunities for riders and staff they bring to the sport are reasoning emotionally, at best, and difficult to take seriously.
Arguing that Astana team needs a management change and fundamental evolution of the organization's culture ... ok, that's reasonable. But just saying the team and sponsor should disappear...please.
Your specifics are more to the point that I wanted to make. The win no matter what mentality is what has cycling in the fix it is. At some point sportsmanship and a sense of fair play have to be present, and Astanas current management structure precludes this...Just one happy bike rider/wrencher's pov.
One wonders the degree to which the sponsor(s) themselves inculcate this culture (or at least the Astana team culture as we perceive it)? After all, as Vinokourov has noted, Astana team was "created for [him] and thanks to [his] efforts"...and let's face it (even though I was Vino's #1 fan) - the guy is shady to say the least. Plus he's a product of the very evil Soviet sports school system.
Idk if cycling is really any more corrupt than Formula 1 though (for example).
I'm not sure if it's the sponsors or more so team management, but Astana is pretty much saying f-you especially with their latest comment that can be found on cyclingquotes basically blaming the fact it was filmed for hurting cycling. Lame lame lame.
- May 13, 2009
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Just own the behavior, admit the pretty obvious - that it was a desperate but foolish (desperately-foolish?) move in the heat of the moment - and resolve not to do it again...or at least not get caught.
Even if, for example, it was only the latest instance of your team leader cheating by hanging onto the car (though not saying that's the case here - just that w/ Astana anything's possible)...just admit it, chalk it up to really poor decision-making in an evolving situation and take your lumps.
Yeah, Whataboutery, or blaming the people or process that caught you for your getting caught is the epitome of lame.yespatterns said:
Just own the behavior, admit the pretty obvious - that it was a desperate but foolish (desperately-foolish?) move in the heat of the moment - and resolve not to do it again...or at least not get caught.
Even if, for example, it was only the latest instance of your team leader cheating by hanging onto the car (though not saying that's the case here - just that w/ Astana anything's possible)...just admit it, chalk it up to really poor decision-making in an evolving situation and take your lumps.
Nibs out training with BMC before Vuelta ,,,good footage
http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Also,+Vincenzo+Nibali+caught+training+with+BMC+prior+to+the+Vuelta&dashboard=vuelta-a-espana&id=A8c-CdrR2tk&yr=2015
http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Also,+Vincenzo+Nibali+caught+training+with+BMC+prior+to+the+Vuelta&dashboard=vuelta-a-espana&id=A8c-CdrR2tk&yr=2015
- Apr 2, 2009
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It is patently absurd that some people should be so offended as to make a moral issue out of it. He got caught up in a wreck that wasn't his fault and tried by stelth (which is more comical than appalling) to get back to the front against the rules.
The reason why the rules are not always applied rigorously and without mercy, is because in cycling the cruelty of fate sometimes plays a role in the jury's decision making process, for which some leeway here and there, if the circumstances are deemed warranting, is viewed as being more just than inflicting further penalty. And it has always been this way in the sport.
Of course Nibali's infraction was far too obvious for the jury to look the other way. Even he recognizes this. I'd imagine that after his being delayed at the Tour (again without out a team), frustration got the better part of his senses. The worst punishment for him will be the embarassment over the candid camera.
The reason why the rules are not always applied rigorously and without mercy, is because in cycling the cruelty of fate sometimes plays a role in the jury's decision making process, for which some leeway here and there, if the circumstances are deemed warranting, is viewed as being more just than inflicting further penalty. And it has always been this way in the sport.
Of course Nibali's infraction was far too obvious for the jury to look the other way. Even he recognizes this. I'd imagine that after his being delayed at the Tour (again without out a team), frustration got the better part of his senses. The worst punishment for him will be the embarassment over the candid camera.
- Jul 16, 2011
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Re:
My suggestion of a 10 minute penalty was based on what might be "fair" in such a scenario and as such is scenario dependent. Nibali was cheating to save his GC chances (OK, he had very bad luck to get in that situation). As such a 10 minute penalty would seem fair as a) it's a multiple of what he would have gained if he hadn't been caught (I would say 1-2 minutes).
In your Sky scenario, suppose Poels and Porte hung on to the Sky car after allowing Froome to draft 3/4 of the way up Alpe d'Huez. The letter of the law says that Poels and Porte are disqualified. Froome still wins the tour and so Poels and Porte really don't care. So is that fair? No, but what should the punishment be?
It's impossible to give a penalty to different riders for the same infringement, so that the real cost of the punishment to them is the same, e.g. Peraud could not care whether he lost 10secs or 10mins. Nibali would have felt the difference.
However, it's impossible to take this into account and be objective in any way. The rule book says for hanging on to a car, you get disqualified. That was hanging on to a car and not a "push off". According to the rules, he should be disqualified. End of story.
King Boonen said:
My suggestion of a 10 minute penalty was based on what might be "fair" in such a scenario and as such is scenario dependent. Nibali was cheating to save his GC chances (OK, he had very bad luck to get in that situation). As such a 10 minute penalty would seem fair as a) it's a multiple of what he would have gained if he hadn't been caught (I would say 1-2 minutes).
In your Sky scenario, suppose Poels and Porte hung on to the Sky car after allowing Froome to draft 3/4 of the way up Alpe d'Huez. The letter of the law says that Poels and Porte are disqualified. Froome still wins the tour and so Poels and Porte really don't care. So is that fair? No, but what should the punishment be?
It's impossible to give a penalty to different riders for the same infringement, so that the real cost of the punishment to them is the same, e.g. Peraud could not care whether he lost 10secs or 10mins. Nibali would have felt the difference.
However, it's impossible to take this into account and be objective in any way. The rule book says for hanging on to a car, you get disqualified. That was hanging on to a car and not a "push off". According to the rules, he should be disqualified. End of story.
They had to do something, it was so blatant and caught on TV. Had they not, maybe a rider or two in that group that suddenly got left behind might have had something to say,which would have been dismissed due to lack of evidence.
I seem to remember him getting back to the peleton with the aid of a moto or 2 in the Florence WCRR too.
I seem to remember him getting back to the peleton with the aid of a moto or 2 in the Florence WCRR too.
Re:
Yeah the circumstances forced the jury into this decision. Too blatant. Too obvious.
Its either this or we would have spent domestiques and sprinters in clusters attached to the cars during mountain stages. It would be a complete farce.
rhubroma said:
Yeah the circumstances forced the jury into this decision. Too blatant. Too obvious.
Its either this or we would have spent domestiques and sprinters in clusters attached to the cars during mountain stages. It would be a complete farce.
A time penalty would not be fair in my opinion. Nibali has broken the rules seriously and deserves a DQ.
For those advocating a time penalty, what happens if Nibali later on wins a stage against a rider that has not cheated? Is it fair that they get their stage win taken away?
For those advocating a time penalty, what happens if Nibali later on wins a stage against a rider that has not cheated? Is it fair that they get their stage win taken away?
Firstly, this kind of "cheating" happens in every grand tour, but it is not captured on cameras.Hayabusa said:
Secondly, how would Nibali "cheat" against the other rider you are talking about for the stage win? By winning some seconds which were going to be compensated by a time penalty?
I think there is a bit of Nibs that is glad to be out of this race. Maybe it was deliberate, knowing he would get caught. Its not as though there wasn't any other riders around. Someone would have mentioned it.
He's a racer a competitor and does not like losing . I think the Tour has stung him and with the crash right on the first stage [road] Nibs just thought " f$c% it"
If Aru does not win this race, I reckon Vino will be round Nibs house and sweeten him up to stay otherwise he's a Bye Bye
He's a racer a competitor and does not like losing . I think the Tour has stung him and with the crash right on the first stage [road] Nibs just thought " f$c% it"
If Aru does not win this race, I reckon Vino will be round Nibs house and sweeten him up to stay otherwise he's a Bye Bye
- May 9, 2014
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Re:
Branding yourself as a cheat is a much better way to go out than feigning illness anyway
ray j willings said:
Branding yourself as a cheat is a much better way to go out than feigning illness anyway
Re: Re:
Your missing the point this was not pre planned he wanted to race
Getting a tow ,slip streaming these things go on, You just don't see them.
How about Froome squirting with his asthma pump ?
What's cheating or what is just the accepted part of the sport.
I don't think Nib's will branded a cheat from now on, it was more comical if anything and he did ride a back from a minute down ....
Nibs wanted to win this race but as soon as that happened he knew or thought his race for victory was over.
Nothing to lose a bad year it can't get any worse etc and off he go's comedy tow and not caring if he get's caught or not.
PremierAndrew said:ray j willings said:
Branding yourself as a cheat is a much better way to go out than feigning illness anyway
Your missing the point this was not pre planned he wanted to race
Getting a tow ,slip streaming these things go on, You just don't see them.
How about Froome squirting with his asthma pump ?
What's cheating or what is just the accepted part of the sport.
I don't think Nib's will branded a cheat from now on, it was more comical if anything and he did ride a back from a minute down ....
Nibs wanted to win this race but as soon as that happened he knew or thought his race for victory was over.
Nothing to lose a bad year it can't get any worse etc and off he go's comedy tow and not caring if he get's caught or not.
rick james
BANNED
- Sep 2, 2014
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Re: Re:
You need to go and educate yourself if you think Froome using an inhaler is some sort of cheating.
Froome using this does not turn him into some sort of hulk, it makes his lungs/airwaves work at a normal level
ray j willings said:PremierAndrew said:ray j willings said:
Branding yourself as a cheat is a much better way to go out than feigning illness anyway
Your missing the point this was not pre planned he wanted to race
Getting a tow ,slip streaming these things go on, You just don't see them.
How about Froome squirting with his asthma pump ?
What's cheating or what is just the accepted part of the sport.
I don't think Nib's will branded a cheat from now on, it was more comical if anything and he did ride a back from a minute down ....
Nibs wanted to win this race but as soon as that happened he knew or thought his race for victory was over.
Nothing to lose a bad year it can't get any worse etc and off he go's comedy tow and not caring if he get's caught or not.
You need to go and educate yourself if you think Froome using an inhaler is some sort of cheating.
Froome using this does not turn him into some sort of hulk, it makes his lungs/airwaves work at a normal level
It's not about the GC. If i recall winning a stage is not only a prestige thing but a money thing too. Let's say that Nibali would win a stage in front of some random Caja Rural or Cofidis guy. The guy would be frustrated, that a guy who was caugth cheating in the same race took his team and personal success & money. For the continental teams the stage win in their home tour (Cofidis is for me more spanish than french) is often everything they want in the whole season. And that chance would be taken by a proven cheater.StannisBaratheon said:
EDIT:
That what I was thinking of. Not only glory but money from winning KOM & propably stage/s in the process too.Finn84 said:
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