Nicole Cooke attacks drug cheats in the womens peloton

[Franklin]

So your objection is not the anecdote in of itself but the fact it doesn't name anyone specifically, that's fine.

I wouldn't like her naming people publicly (unless there is no other way to remove them). I'd like her to step to her union behind closed doors. The union/anti doping/justice dep. then can look into it. Everyone deserves a fair trial. Another scandal and public lynching is nice for the media/clinic, but so far it solves little. In the end the unions need to fix this and create safe structures for young cyclists.

Surely not everyone is so PR aware and money driven though, are they? The fact is we (at the moment) don't know the reason for the statement and quite frankly all the speculation gets to be quite pointless.

I certainly don't read personal gain in her story. But you asked if there was a possible personal gain angle. It's possible and not extremely farfetched. These things happen (sadly enough).

But again, as far as we know we should see this one as an honest if emotional statement(I certainly think it's well meant). Motives are not important either way.

 

[xcleigh]

I wouldn't like her naming people publicly (unless there is no other way to remove them). I'd like her to step to her union behind closed doors. The union/anti doping/justice dep. then can look into it. Everyone deserves a fair trial. Another scandal and public lynching is nice for the media/clinic, but so far it solves little. In the end the unions need to fix this and create safe structures for young cyclists.



I certainly don't read personal gain in her story. But you asked if there was a possible personal gain angle. It's possible and not extremely farfetched. These things happen (sadly enough).

But again, as far as we know we should see this one as an honest if emotional statement(I certainly think it's well meant). Motives are not important either way.

Yep agreed.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Pedro, there are a few posters who agree with me, that Moncoutie, does just enough to get by. If you have no threshold for the appellation "clean", then Moncoutie aint. See his Alpe d'Huez timetrial in about 2003 Tour, in about 2002 or 2003 he came 13th or something on GC.

Moncoutie, like Evans, does enough. not egregious, may be just "recovery therapy" but they "do".

By clean I mean pane e acqua. Without going too off topic is it just his results that led you to that conclusion or something else?

For what it's worth that ITT on Alpe d'Duez was around 15.5km and he was still around 2:30 behind Armstrong.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

As in "It's possible".

There is a difference between 'Chances are' and 'There is a chance' with the former meaning something is likely but if you means the latter so be it.

My personal opinion here is that it's far beyond the ethical pale to associate with Landis/Hamilton's doctor. Be he clean or dirty, being involved with those people should mean a lifetime ban. *Wiggins once agreed*

And about "Cooke said that in 2008". Yes and she certainly shouldn't be crucified for what she said back then. But I do rail against her current statement!

Again, I'm absolutely shocked by the hypocrisie of the posters who call the Clinic fanatics when they rant and rave about someone posting a blanket accusation.

Those posters, we know who they are, display double standards on an amazing level. They should have been clamoring about the lack of evidence of Cooke and the smear she makes. So far it's just applause.

Can you point me to the part in the her statement where she makes this blanket statement aimed at all the team mates

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

There's no hard accusation in there at all.

Yes there is.

1. What she posts is hypocritical even if she would be a paladin with angel wings.

- She lived through the sport and reaped the (welldeserved!) profits. Yet now she's done she spits in the soup, while accusing an unknown amount of cyclists. All we do know is that everyone she ever rode with is suddenly suspect.

- She of all people should know how these things can be deceptive considering she (as epitome of clean cycling!) herself had a doctor who is connected to doping. Maybe those supplements were indeed benign?

2. Associating with a dirty doctor indeed usually is a very good indicator. Wish it weren't so, but that's easily seen in cycling's history.

- The question is, is Fabio dirty? We don't know. I (personally!) question his ethics. The evidence indicates he has no problem working with dodgy doctors.
- and even if he is, is having a dirty doctor 100% proof? Of course not.

That said, what Benotti said is hardly taking an axe to Nicole's neck. He says that having a dirty doctor isn't promising. Not a word there is wrong. He certainly implies that he think Fabio is dirty and that part is discutable. But let's be fair, he certainly has some questionmarks around him... and that fit's with the hypocrisie angle.

Yes, I'm sure some here think she's a lieing doper, but so far that sentiment isn't brought forward very forcefuly. You can take issue with her statement even if you are (like me) in no way convinced she doped.

I don't understand your logic at all. So because she worked with a doctor who may or may not be dodgy she has lost her right to comment on the sport? If what she says is true, and I see no reason why she would lie, then more people should be speaking out. Are you saying she should keep quiet?

It is perfectly understandable why you would keep quiet while you are racing. You only have to look at Bassons to see how he was ostracised from the sport.

In fact by 'spitting in the soup' there is a good chance she is forfeiting any further work in the sport.

Benotti is free to say what he wants. It is relevant to bring up past associations but I think how they get interpreted can be too simplistic sometimes but that is a different subject.

 

[Franklin]

Can you point me to the part in the her statement where she makes this blanket statement aimed at all the team mates

You missed about half the article it seems

Let me make an example. If you and I share a fridge and I start to shout that one of us is putting doping in there, but it sure isn't me, would you be okay with that? Or are you fine with that as I don't name you?

 

[pmcg76]

You missed about half the article it seems

Let me make an example. If you and I share a fridge and I start to shout that one of us is putting doping in there, but it sure isn't me, would you be okay with that? Or are you fine with that as I don't name you?

But it's not just two people involved in this, it's a full team and she doesn't blanket accuse them. She just says there was doping products in the team house and that management wanted her to try products. I don't think she was trying to implicate anyone, merely stating that doping was happening.

I would imagine most of the people on that team wouldn't even register on the radar of most fans of cycling so it's not like people will even care who the team-mates were. I myself would only recognise one other team-mate who was married to a male pro so we will leave it at that.

Now if it was other British riders involved, it might cause a bit of a ruffle but what Nicole Cooke says will hardly get to the countries of the girls involved. Outside of Britain, who cares about what Nicole Cooke says?? I think you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill here.

Like I directed at Benotti in another thread you also sound like former UCI president Hein Verbruggen when Grame Obree, Giles Delion and Nicolas Aubier made their accusations of doping in L'Equipe back in 96.

Verbruggen shot them down as being bitter and being cowardly and only speaking out when they couldn't hang on anymore.

Must be nice to know you are in the illustrious company of the esteemed Mr Verbruggen.

 

[Benotti69]

But it's not just two people involved in this, it's a full team and she doesn't blanket accuse them. She just says there was doping products in the team house and that management wanted her to try products. I don't think she was trying to implicate anyone, merely stating that doping was happening.

I would imagine most of the people on that team wouldn't even register on the radar of most fans of cycling so it's not like people will even care who the team-mates were. I myself would only recognise one other team-mate who was married to a male pro so we will leave it at that.

Now if it was other British riders involved, it might cause a bit of a ruffle but what Nicole Cooke says will hardly get to the countries of the girls involved. Outside of Britain, who cares about what Nicole Cooke says?? I think you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill here.

Like I directed at Benotti in another thread you also sound like former UCI president Hein Verbruggen when Grame Obree, Giles Delion and Nicolas Aubier made their accusations of doping in L'Equipe back in 96.

Verbruggen shot them down as being bitter and being cowardly and only speaking out when they couldn't hang on anymore.

Must be nice to know you are in the illustrious company of the esteemed Mr Verbruggen.

I am anti doping. Verbruggen was actively pro doping.

Go figure!

 

[martinvickers]

I am anti doping. Verbruggen was actively pro doping.

Go figure!

ah, but Verbruggen claimed he was anti-doping too, just like yourself...

 

[Benotti69]

ah, but Verbruggen claimed he was anti-doping too, just like yourself...

I deny acting improper with my good friend Thom Weisel and no nothing about introducing Armstrong and Bruyneel to Saugy.....

 

[martinvickers]

I deny acting improper with my good friend Thom Weisel and no nothing about introducing Armstrong and Bruyneel to Saugy.....

Go in peace, Benotti, you're obviously clean - I know, I asked your friends

 

[blackcat]

By clean I mean pane e acqua. Without going too off topic is it just his results that led you to that conclusion or something else?

For what it's worth that ITT on Alpe d'Duez was around 15.5km and he was still around 2:30 behind Armstrong.

and see who he was with and surrounded by.

Dont compare him to Armstrong and make his relative performance as evidence he is clean.

like Pantani's records, or Riis' climbing times. These are off-the-bell- curve even for the dopers , or off-the-dopers-bell-curve

 

[131313]

and see who he was with and surrounded by.

Dont compare him to Armstrong and make his relative performance as evidence he is clean.

like Pantani's records, or Riis' climbing times. These are off-the-bell- curve even for the dopers , or off-the-dopers-bell-curve

Sorry to drag this off-topic,as this is almost a subject for another thread. I just looked through the 2004 results, and it's actually pretty funny to watch in retrospect. Moncoutie certainly fits the profile of a guy not on the juice. Some good days, good meaing 6-8 minutes off of the top guys in the high mountains, normally followed by a day in the gruppetto. He obviously took a "rest day" before the HC TT, and the TT was pretty much target event. That, combined with his actual time and it actually doesn't look ridiculous to me.

What is funny is how he went straight to the gruppetto right after the rest day. Meanwhile Hincapie is 3 minutes down on one of the hardest stages of the race.

Context is important, too. If the Posties were all allowed to actually ride the HC TT, they probably would have had 6 guys in the top 10! Plus, you had other guys like Rasmussen soft-pedaling and stage hunting for later. I'm not a staunch Moncoutie fan boy, as I know nothing about the guy, but the HC TT result actually seems believable to me when you take the whole thing in context.

 

[blackcat]

Sorry to drag this off-topic,as this is almost a subject for another thread. I just looked through the 2004 results, and it's actually pretty funny to watch in retrospect. Moncoutie certainly fits the profile of a guy not on the juice. Some good days, good meaing 6-8 minutes off of the top guys in the high mountains, normally followed by a day in the gruppetto. He obviously took a "rest day" before the HC TT, and the TT was pretty much target event. That, combined with his actual time and it actually doesn't look ridiculous to me.

What is funny is how he went straight to the gruppetto right after the rest day. Meanwhile Hincapie is 3 minutes down on one of the hardest stages of the race.

Context is important, too. If the Posties were all allowed to actually ride the HC TT, they probably would have had 6 guys in the top 10! Plus, you had other guys like Rasmussen soft-pedaling and stage hunting for later. I'm not a staunch Moncoutie fan boy, as I know nothing about the guy, but the HC TT result actually seems believable to me when you take the whole thing in context.

well, thanks 131313 for the expert insider opinion. yours is always welcome and I am happy to eat my words
cheers

 

[Franklin]

But it's not just two people involved in this, it's a full team and she doesn't blanket accuse them. She just says there was doping products in the team house and that management wanted her to try products. I don't think she was trying to implicate anyone, merely stating that doping was happening.

And it was clear that those products were used by the soccer team across the street?

I would imagine most of the people on that team wouldn't even register on the radar of most fans of cycling so it's not like people will even care who the team-mates were. I myself would only recognise one other team-mate who was married to a male pro so we will leave it at that.

Now if it was other British riders involved, it might cause a bit of a ruffle but what Nicole Cooke says will hardly get to the countries of the girls involved. Outside of Britain, who cares about what Nicole Cooke says?? I think you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill here.

So it's ay-okay as they aren't Brittish? And Nicole's statements won't cross the channel?

Like I directed at Benotti in another thread you also sound like former UCI president Hein Verbruggen when Grame Obree, Giles Delion and Nicolas Aubier made their accusations of doping in L'Equipe back in 96.

Verbruggen shot them down as being bitter and being cowardly and only speaking out when they couldn't hang on anymore.

Must be nice to know you are in the illustrious company of the esteemed Mr Verbruggen.

I know, my proposal of going through the motion of accusing them at their union and bringing hem to justice is silly as that would actually mean there would have to come a real case and evidence. What would be the value of that when you can just do a an emotional feel-good statement?

I mean it's exactly the same as what Verbruggen said right? I clearly say there is no problem. Oh crap, I don't say that... I also slam Nicole for being bitter.... Oh hmmmm I don't say that either. I also don't come with a way to go forward. Oh dang, I do give a good way to handle this.

So yes, exactly like Verburggen, except it isn't the same at all.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Dont compare him to Armstrong and make his relative performance as evidence he is clean.

I compared his time to Armstrong's time because Armstrong was first. I would also add that Moncoutie may have been going hard to try and pick up some more KOM points as well.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

You missed about half the article it seems

I read it but am beginning to think you may not have understood it...

Let me make an example. If you and I share a fridge and I start to shout that one of us is putting doping in there, but it sure isn't me, would you be okay with that? Or are you fine with that as I don't name you?

That is possibly good example. A good example of what, I am not sure because it seems to have no relevance to what Cooke wrote.

At 18, in my first team house I did not have long to wait before encountering suspicious circumstances. In the fridge were various bottles and vials with diaphragms on top for extracting the contents via syringes. I rang dad and asked what I should do. We chatted it through and came to the conclusion that even condoning the presence of 'medicines' in the house I was staying, could lead to pressure being put on me, or in the worst case, if there was a raid on the house, it was highly unlikely that any of the "professionals " I was sharing the house with were going to say "it's a fair cop guv, That gear is all mine." Rather a finger would be pointed at the Brit who could barely speak Italian and somebody would say, "All these bottles – every one of them are hers ---- my mates and I tried to stop her but she just keeps doping every day". So, I emptied the fridge and put the lot out in the front garden and told the team manager to deal with it, either it went or I went. It went.

She found dope in the fridge.
Was worried that whomever was doping would probably throw the blame her way if they were caught (A reasonable conclusion imo).
She threw the dope away.

Where you get this notion that she is accusing everyone of doping is beyond me.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Cooke's fibs

So, I emptied the fridge and put the lot out in the front garden and told the team manager to deal with it, either it went or I went. It went

Sounds good at first reading...but think about that.

An 18 year old from crappy England turns up in ITALY the home of cycling...putting the dope on the front lawn and saying its 'me or the drugs gov'....

HA...and he did as he was told.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Sounds good at first reading...but think about that.

An 18 year old from crappy England turns up in ITALY the home of cycling...putting the dope on the front lawn and saying its 'me or the drugs gov'....

HA...and he did as he was told.

Why say 'crappy' England? I am not sure where you are from but you seem to have a keen dislike for Britain judging from your posts.

And is Italy really the home of cycling?

Could be a number of reasons:

She really was that good that it was worth keeping her and not the dope.
He was worried that she might say something to the authorities.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Cooke's words

Why say 'crappy' England? I am not sure where you are from but you seem to have a keen dislike for Britain judging from your posts.

And is Italy really the home of cycling?

Could be a number of reasons:

She really was that good that it was worth keeping her and not the dope.
He was worried that she might say something to the authorities.

you cant seriously compare the UK to Europe for riding talent and terrain. I say crappy England 'tongue in cheek' but for riding - bumpy tarmac roads, cold weather, no hills (oh sorry we have that lump in surrey they did in the olympics)

Belgium, Italy...either really.

And the authorities are gona take the word of an 18yr old over the boss / coach of the team ??? have you heard of the Mantova Investigation.???

 

[Hawkwood]

Sounds good at first reading...but think about that.

An 18 year old from crappy England turns up in ITALY the home of cycling...putting the dope on the front lawn and saying its 'me or the drugs gov'....

HA...and he did as he was told.

Wales surely!!!

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

And the authorities are gona take the word of an 18yr old over the boss / coach of the team ??? have you heard of the Mantova Investigation.???

You're going to have to explain the relevance I'm afraid?

 

[JimmyFingers]

And the authorities are gona take the word of an 18yr old over the boss / coach of the team ??? have you heard of the Mantova Investigation.???

Bizarre because as I read it that is exactly what she is saying. Engage brain before posting.

And we have plenty of decent hills, just no mountains. I suggest you move to Italy if they're not sufficient, with all their miles of perfect tarmac and endless climbs.

 

[Cycle Chic]

You're going to have to explain the relevance I'm afraid?

meaning Cooke's allegations would be a very small fish in a very large pond.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

meaning Cooke's allegations would be a very small fish in a very large pond.

That still doesn't mean that the guy in charge of that group of riders (obviously someone lower down the chain) would not be concerned if someone threatened with supplying drugs to a group of (perhaps some under age 18) girls.