Nicole Cooke attacks drug cheats in the womens peloton

[Avoriaz]

you cant seriously compare the UK to Europe for riding talent and terrain. I say crappy England 'tongue in cheek' but for riding - bumpy tarmac roads, cold weather, no hills (oh sorry we have that lump in surrey they did in the olympics)

Belgium, Italy...either really.

And the authorities are gona take the word of an 18yr old over the boss / coach of the team ??? have you heard of the Mantova Investigation.???

You should probably say "crappy" Wales if we are talking about Cooke.

As for the bumpy roads, cold weather and no hills, that could also be Belgium you are talking about

And he may well have taken her word given she was a world champion at every level she had competed in

 

[del1962]

you cant seriously compare the UK to Europe for riding talent and terrain. I say crappy England 'tongue in cheek' but for riding - bumpy tarmac roads, cold weather, no hills (oh sorry we have that lump in surrey they did in the olympics)

Belgium, Italy...either really.

And the authorities are gona take the word of an 18yr old over the boss / coach of the team ??? have you heard of the Mantova Investigation.???

For someone who gives his/her locatrion as UK, you seem remarkably ignorant about the UK's geography

 

[Benotti69]

Nicole Cooke turns up in Italy, throws the dope out of the house then proceeds to beat all the dopers.

This was at the during the epo era! LeMond couldn't beat riders on epo but Cooke could?

 

[martinvickers]

Nicole Cooke turns up in Italy, throws the dope out of the house then proceeds to beat all the dopers.

This was at the during the epo era! LeMond couldn't beat riders on epo but Cooke could?

Women's peleton had a considerably thinner field, B, and far less money to put into full scale programmes. Even a completely mediocre male pro rider is likely to actually be a pretty damn good rider really, just not in that company - men's cycling attracts large numbers of the best athletes (and then dopes them to kingdom come, sadly) - I'm not sure women's cycling of that era did.

I'm not saying low money sport = clean sport, but cleanER sport? Well, I'd put it this way - most of the doped up uber females were probably throwing hammer, or serving aces...

 

[Benotti69]

Women's peleton had a considerably thinner field, B, and far less money to put into full scale programmes. Even a completely mediocre male pro rider is likely to actually be a pretty damn good rider really, just not in that company - men's cycling attracts large numbers of the best athletes (and then dopes them to kingdom come, sadly) - I'm not sure women's cycling of that era did.

I'm not saying low money sport = clean sport, but cleanER sport? Well, I'd put it this way - most of the doped up uber females were probably throwing hammer, or serving aces...

According to Cooke it is not how you put it. Sounds like a full scale programme happening.

Obviously not everyone could afford it but according to Cooke that team had one.

So Women's Italian cycling was full of women who were not talented? Doubt that. It is a big sport over there.

 

[martinvickers]

According to Cooke it is not how you put it. Sounds like a full scale programme happening.

Obviously not everyone could afford it but according to Cooke that team had one.

AS I said, I certainly wouldn't call it clean - the Word Longo springs to mind - but was it as riddled as the men's peleton? I genuinely doubt it. The rewards weren't there to justify it.

So Women's Italian cycling was full of women who were not talented? Doubt that. It is a big sport over there.

That's not what I said, B - I said the female peleton was considerably thinner. Would you disagree?

 

[Benotti69]

AS I said, I certainly wouldn't call it clean - the Word Longo springs to mind - but was it as riddled as the men's peleton? I genuinely doubt it. The rewards weren't there to justify it.

Money is not the only reward. In fact most want the glory first, the money is secondary.

I aked the question, Cooke was beating epo using racers, unlike LeMond.

That's not what I said, B - I said the female peleton was considerably thinner. Would you disagree?

So a smaller peloton meant easier to win for Cooke and easier to beat dopers? I would say it was harder to beat dopers in a smaller peloton.

 

[pmcg76]

And it was clear that those products were used by the soccer team across the street?



So it's ay-okay as they aren't Brittish? And Nicole's statements won't cross the channel?



I know, my proposal of going through the motion of accusing them at their union and bringing hem to justice is silly as that would actually mean there would have to come a real case and evidence. What would be the value of that when you can just do a an emotional feel-good statement?

I mean it's exactly the same as what Verbruggen said right? I clearly say there is no problem. Oh crap, I don't say that... I also slam Nicole for being bitter.... Oh hmmmm I don't say that either. I also don't come with a way to go forward. Oh dang, I do give a good way to handle this.

So yes, exactly like Verburggen, except it isn't the same at all.

It doesn't change the fact you are using the exact same line in trying to discredit them

As I said, how many people will give a **** about a very generalised comment about doping at a women's cycling team from 11 years whilst we are in the midst of the biggest doping scandal in history. How will those girls be tarnished if nobody actually knows who they are or actually care. I would almost bet that most of these girls have moved on with their lives and wont even hear about the comments.

How much coverage will Cooke retiring actually receive overseas. I am not saying it's ok because it's non-British riders, I am saying maybe the British media would be interested if it involved British rider's but it doesn't so it's unlikely to cause any stir in Europe where the comments are likely to go unpublished.

I can just see it now in Spain and Ukraine, "Stop the press, a former British female riders says there was some doping products at her team over 11 years ago. Who were these girls? Lets reveal who they are and launch a full scale investigation?"

We don't even know which girls were living with Cooke so if anybody even took the time to investigate(highly unlikely) all they would have to say is 'I wasn't living there' or 'yes there was doping products but I wasn't involved'. Who is going to follow up?

I am sure when Cooke made her comments, she knew that nobody would care about who her team-mates were and she was giving an overview on the fact that she was faced with doping. I think Cooke better than anyone understands the general apathy towards women's cyclists.

There are plenty of male cyclist's who make sweeping comments on doping all the time and most of them get ignored. Ciaran Power and Roger Hammond are two in the last few days but will anyone care or go on a rant like you have.

It comes across like you have some sort of problem with Nicole Cooke to be turning a trivial comment into something that is going to destroy people's reputations when that ain't the case. Nobody cares except apparently you.

 

[martinvickers]

Money is not the only reward. In fact most want the glory first, the money is secondary.

I aked the question, Cooke was beating epo using racers, unlike LeMond.



So a smaller peloton meant easier to win for Cooke and easier to beat dopers? I would say it was harder to beat dopers in a smaller peloton.

I don't think that last statement makes mathematical sense. A smaller cohort is going to be a smaller bell curve, with fewer extremely talented athletes at it's far end.

Smaller AND thinner too. I would argue that fewer of the very best female endurance athletes drift to cycling - there are more rewarding avenues elsewhere. So the premium racers - and the premium dopers - can stand out. Call it the Navratilova effect *which now, thanks to the rewards of WTA circuit, doesn't exist there because the field is anything but thin).

I'd say it would be interesting, mathematically, to compare several sports for repeat success in both mens and womens. -women's tending to have the thinner field.

UCI World Champs - Road Race

Best Man - Merckx - 3 wins
Best Woman - Longo - 5 wins, 3 more podiums and 4 TT wins

Or even today - Marianne Vos has finished first or second for 7 consecutive years

Grand slam titles in tennis

Most Men - singles - Federer 17, sampras 14, emerson 12, Laver, 11
Most Women - signles - Court 24, Graff 22, Moody 19, Navratilova & Evert 18 each

But then look at athletics were solid women's programmes have existed side by side with mens for decades? - almost all the multiple records belong to men.

 

[Benotti69]

My original question was whether it was possible for Cooke to beat epo's riders?

Given what we know about the increase in benefit to some it seems unlikely that she would have won so much back then. EPO turned an average athlete Armstrong into a multiple GT winner. EPO made Big Mig into a mountain goat.

Given that we are now 'allegedly' in an era of 'micro doping' (2008 on ) Cooke was not winning at all since her Beijing/Varese wins when she seemed at her peak.

So how was Cooke able to beat epo riders? Because she was a LeMond and the others were all gregarios? I dont buy that.

I know she lost to Jeannson an epo user, but was Jeannson one of a few? No she wasn't according to what was in the fridge!

 

[Mellow Velo]

Sounds good at first reading...but think about that.

An 18 year old from crappy England turns up in ITALY the home of cycling...putting the dope on the front lawn and saying its 'me or the drugs gov'....

HA...and he did as he was told.

Wales surely!!!

Come on CC, you are still having a mare.
It's crappy Wales, if you don't mind
3 strikes.
Does that mean you are now out?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Money is not the only reward. In fact most want the glory first, the money is secondary.

I aked the question, Cooke was beating epo using racers, unlike LeMond.



So a smaller peloton meant easier to win for Cooke and easier to beat dopers? I would say it was harder to beat dopers in a smaller peloton.

Right there.
That's the rational for the first and only law of doping debate.
All winners, every race, must be dopers.

 

[sniper]

Come on CC, you are still having a mare.
It's crappy Wales, if you don't mind
3 strikes.
Does that mean you are now out?

i wouldn't call her out.
she may not have her facts straight all the time, at least she doesn't have that nasty whool pulled over her eyes.

If you go to war, innocent will get killed. That's not a fact in your book (you'll say "prove it!"), but it's a fact in my book, a lesson learnt from history, the remote and recent past. Posters like you are unwilling to learn from history. It's because of mindsets like yours that doping will continue to prevail in cycling.

 

[ebandit]

epo?

I aked the question, Cooke was beating epo using racers, unlike LeMond.

So a smaller peloton meant easier to win for Cooke and easier to beat dopers? I would say it was harder to beat dopers in a smaller peloton.

i don't recall many women cyclists being busted for epo............so who were
these epo using racers?............the whole field or just a few?
was this in single day or stage races? i think it's more possible for clean
riders to better doped riders in single day events

in womens racing not only are fields smaller but range of ability is wider
...........naturally gifted women can dominate more than in mens racing
...........just look at vos

 

[pmcg76]

My original question was whether it was possible for Cooke to beat epo's riders?

Given what we know about the increase in benefit to some it seems unlikely that she would have won so much back then. EPO turned an average athlete Armstrong into a multiple GT winner. EPO made Big Mig into a mountain goat.

Given that we are now 'allegedly' in an era of 'micro doping' (2008 on ) Cooke was not winning at all since her Beijing/Varese wins when she seemed at her peak.

So how was Cooke able to beat epo riders? Because she was a LeMond and the others were all gregarios? I dont buy that.

I know she lost to Jeannson an epo user, but was Jeannson one of a few? No she wasn't according to what was in the fridge!

Just last week, Jesus Manzano named former Banesto and Vitalicos Seguros rider Santiago Blanco as a clean rider.

Now taking your logic that you feel Moncoutie and Bassons were clean as they were outed by confirmed dopers, I would assume this logic applies to Blanco as well.

Blanco has 3 placings in around the Top 10 of a GT during a heavily doped era meaning he was beating riders on EPO. Indeed Blanco has some nice results for a clean rider.

http://www.cyclebase.nl/index.php?lang=en&page=renner&discipline=1&sex=m&id=1508

Granted that Cooke was a huge talent from a young age and the variance in the quality of female pros as noted above, it would seem very plausible that Cooke could beat riders on EPO.

Cooke also became dominant in stage races around the same time as when the men were moving away from EPO to blood bags. Obviously the presence of the EPO test curbed its use somewhat so maybe she benefited from that as previously she had performed better in the one day races.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Right there.
That's the rational for the first and only law of doping debate.
All winners, every race, must be dopers.

This +1000 this is the real issue with this debate. There's so little we know for sure, so many variables i.e. the drugs they were taking, how much they improved performance, when they were using them during the season, who was racing clean so the short cut is you won, you doped.

There's little to say it to really beyong given those variables it is impossible to either confirm or deny that, hence we're just chasing our tails for most of the time

 

[Mellow Velo]

i wouldn't call her out.
she may not have her facts straight all the time, at least she doesn't have that nasty whool pulled over her eyes.

If you go to war, innocent will get killed. That's not a fact in your book (you'll say "prove it!"), but it's a fact in my book, a lesson learnt from history, the remote and recent past. Posters like you are unwilling to learn from history. It's because of mindsets like yours that doping will continue to prevail in cycling.

My friend, the words stick and wrong end of, spring to mind.
Little bit of a running joke between myself and CC, from yesterday.
Hence the little winky: no malice.

 

[Benotti69]

i don't recall many women cyclists being busted for epo............so who were
these epo using racers?............the whole field or just a few?
was this in single day or stage races? i think it's more possible for clean
riders to better doped riders in single day events

in womens racing not only are fields smaller but range of ability is wider
...........naturally gifted women can dominate more than in mens racing
...........just look at vos

i would be surprised if Vos was clean.

 

[Benotti69]

Right there.
That's the rational for the first and only law of doping debate.
All winners, every race, must be dopers.

Cooke is the one throwing allegations out there of fridges with dope.

We know of Jeanson and Longo. Winners.

Why do we know about the male dopers? Guys like Walsh and Kimmage.

Who takes any interest in the Women's racing? Are the anti doping tests any good. The men's aren't!

Why do we suppose that the women do it all on talent?

Apparently Granfondos are riddled with PEDs.

Again, I asked the question. I did not give an answer.

Cooke was the one who put in the public domain.

 

[ebandit]

???????

i would be surprised if Vos was clean.

did nicole beat vos often? but the thread is not about vos

i noticed that you ignored my question re your statement that nicole

managed to beat all the riders on epo.................may i assume that you

just made that bit up?

 

[Benotti69]

did nicole beat vos often? but the thread is not about vos

i noticed that you ignored my question re your statement that nicole

managed to beat all the riders on epo.................may i assume that you

just made that bit up?

I asked a question. Iaske because i dont have the answers.

I dont know if Cooke doped. Somethings in my opinion warrented asking a few questions.

I dont know who is doping and who is not. Cooke was the one pointing to a house and fridge full of dopers and dope.

The women's teams have been and are run by men mostly from the world of pro cycling. Do they leave their doping experience at the door?

Does Cipo not have his girls on a program? I would be surprised if they are doing it on panne e acqua.

 

[ebandit]

so?

I asked a question. Iaske because i dont have the answers.

so in the absence of any report that nicole doped you must assume that she

was clean?

asking that nicole beat epo administered riders makes the assumption that

there were such..............there might have been none...or very few

 

[Benotti69]

so in the absence of any report that nicole doped you must assume that she

was clean?

asking that nicole beat epo administered riders makes the assumption that

there were such..............there might have been none...or very few

Cooke told us they were doping. No assumption.

 

[ebandit]

?

Cooke told us they were doping. No assumption.

yet you say you don't know....................and still go on.........and on

nicole was talking about some new team mates that she did not wish

to condone doping not herself

 

[JimmyFingers]

Cooke told us they were doping. No assumption.

Didn't she also say she threw it out? If she was doping herself then again we are asking if she is trying to pull off a massive double-bluff, which would no sense she is retiring and not under investigation, apart from here, because she chose to say something and make a stand.

And we attack her.

This is the bit I don't get. She is saying everything I want a pro-rider to be saying about doping, rather than the b*llocks about it ending in 2005. And instead of championing her she is getting counter-attacked. You want a whistle-blower? You have one. There is so much she could expose if she had a mind too, once we get past this myopic 'she won ergo she is a doper'