Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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Sep 25, 2009
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it is over. bravo niskanene and bravo bolshunov !
my instant comments:
- livo and alexander were even physically and a greater experience won
-the 2:40 gap on the rest is indicative of how superior these 2 were.
- i do like but not gloat that sundby is off pedestal. never believed he deserved it
- the larkov bronze is hardly a surprise after seeing how he and polto dropped toeseth in the relay
- polto a big disappointment. we may still learn why...
 
BullsFan22 said:
Bolshunov looked dead, or just knew he had no chance with those skis? I don't understand why he didn't change skis. They had a huge lead, why risk it? He wasn't going to blow it. Niskanen had to win it, but won it on ski speed.
What could he do?! Niskaken made 3 seconds in the downhill just nothing you can do.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Awesome win by Niskanen today! Surprising that Poltoranin faded like he did, feel sorry for him. I haven’t seen a 50k like this ever, I thought it was individual start when I started watching at about 30k:p
 
BullsFan22 said:
Bolshunov looked dead, or just knew he had no chance with those skis? I don't understand why he didn't change skis. They had a huge lead, why risk it? He wasn't going to blow it. Niskanen had to win it, but won it on ski speed.
I think Bolshunov blew it when he didn't change at the same time as Iivo. He might've underestimated Niskanen at that point and thought he would be able to ski away with the lead he got during change. Once Niskanen came back with relative ease, Bolshunov probably knew it was done. Changing at the last lap would've been too risky, as only 4km left to catch 10-15sec and also sprint to finish left where all remaining power needed.

Niskanen was simply stronger today, but better on tactics as well.

Ps. There was speculation whether Bolshunov changed once in the very beginning, but might've not been the case.
 
DenisMenchov said:
BullsFan22 said:
Bolshunov looked dead, or just knew he had no chance with those skis? I don't understand why he didn't change skis. They had a huge lead, why risk it? He wasn't going to blow it. Niskanen had to win it, but won it on ski speed.
What could he do?! Niskaken made 3 seconds in the downhill just nothing you can do.

Should have changed skis. This was a straightforward ski exchange. He wasn't going to lose any time doing it. They would have left the pen at the same time, +- one or two seconds. Unless the coaches picked horrible skis, he would have had a better chance. I think this is purely inexperience on Bolshunov's part. This is his first 50km in the world cup/world champs/olympics, and only his second 50km ever.

That said, Niskanen made the race, he was the one that attacked, he worked at the front, kept his pace, didn't wait for anyone to catch him and made the necessary ski changes. I picked him as the co-favorite alongside Poltoranin, with Bolshunov as a top 3, but had doubts about Bolshunov, mostly due to experience.

As far as Poltoranin is concerned, I am really sad for him. I thought he was going to hang with Niskanen, but it wasn't meant to be. He'll be 34 for the next Olympics. 15km classic at Seefeld next year, but this was a HUGE opportunity for him. Real pity.

Larkov. Wow. I thought that he'd get a top 10, but not too much more than that. For him to comeback to the chasing pack, sat in, and then went off. Didn't expect that.

Glad that Harvey didn't get a medal.

Sundby, again no individual medal. He was gifted two golds. In the relay by Krueger and Klaebo and in the team sprint by Klaebo.

Cologna surprisingly dropped off the chasing pack quite early. 50km at the Olympics really not his thing. Still another gold medal. One is better than nothing.
 
DenisMenchov said:
BullsFan22 said:
Bolshunov looked dead, or just knew he had no chance with those skis? I don't understand why he didn't change skis. They had a huge lead, why risk it? He wasn't going to blow it. Niskanen had to win it, but won it on ski speed.
What could he do?! Niskaken made 3 seconds in the downhill just nothing you can do.
It is easy to blame the skis at the end, but remember Bolshunov initially catched Niskanen mainly due to better skis. In 50km you gain somewhere and in other places you lose. I tend to believe that today the overall strongest skier won, not the best equipments.
 
Googolplex said:
bambino said:
Changing at the last lap would've been too risky, as only 4km left to catch 10-15sec and also sprint to finish left where all remaining power needed.
It wasn't possible at 46 km. Only after full 8,3 km laps, so at 8,17,25,33,42 km.
There you go. It would be good to know whether Bolshunov actually only change once, or did he change already after first 8km.
 
BullsFan22 said:
DenisMenchov said:
BullsFan22 said:
Bolshunov looked dead, or just knew he had no chance with those skis? I don't understand why he didn't change skis. They had a huge lead, why risk it? He wasn't going to blow it. Niskanen had to win it, but won it on ski speed.
What could he do?! Niskaken made 3 seconds in the downhill just nothing you can do.

Should have changed skis. This was a straightforward ski exchange. He wasn't going to lose any time doing it. They would have left the pen at the same time, +- one or two seconds. Unless the coaches picked horrible skis, he would have had a better chance. I think this is purely inexperience on Bolshunov's part. This is his first 50km in the world cup/world champs/olympics, and only his second 50km ever.

That said, Niskanen made the race, he was the one that attacked, he worked at the front, kept his pace, didn't wait for anyone to catch him and made the necessary ski changes. I picked him as the co-favorite alongside Poltoranin, with Bolshunov as a top 3, but had doubts about Bolshunov, mostly due to experience.

As far as Poltoranin is concerned, I am really sad for him. I thought he was going to hang with Niskanen, but it wasn't meant to be. He'll be 34 for the next Olympics. 15km classic at Seefeld next year, but this was a HUGE opportunity for him. Real pity.

Larkov. Wow. I thought that he'd get a top 10, but not too much more than that. For him to comeback to the chasing pack, sat in, and then went off. Didn't expect that.

Glad that Harvey didn't get a medal.

Sundby, again no individual medal. He was gifted two golds. In the relay by Krueger and Klaebo and in the team sprint by Klaebo.

Cologna surprisingly dropped off the chasing pack quite early. 50km at the Olympics really not his thing. Still another gold medal. One is better than nothing.
Sundby no individual medal today. But as you continued into the gold in the Olympics, I need to remind he did also get individual silver on Skiathlon, without anyones help or gifted.
 
bambino said:
BullsFan22 said:
DenisMenchov said:
BullsFan22 said:
Bolshunov looked dead, or just knew he had no chance with those skis? I don't understand why he didn't change skis. They had a huge lead, why risk it? He wasn't going to blow it. Niskanen had to win it, but won it on ski speed.
What could he do?! Niskaken made 3 seconds in the downhill just nothing you can do.

Should have changed skis. This was a straightforward ski exchange. He wasn't going to lose any time doing it. They would have left the pen at the same time, +- one or two seconds. Unless the coaches picked horrible skis, he would have had a better chance. I think this is purely inexperience on Bolshunov's part. This is his first 50km in the world cup/world champs/olympics, and only his second 50km ever.

That said, Niskanen made the race, he was the one that attacked, he worked at the front, kept his pace, didn't wait for anyone to catch him and made the necessary ski changes. I picked him as the co-favorite alongside Poltoranin, with Bolshunov as a top 3, but had doubts about Bolshunov, mostly due to experience.

As far as Poltoranin is concerned, I am really sad for him. I thought he was going to hang with Niskanen, but it wasn't meant to be. He'll be 34 for the next Olympics. 15km classic at Seefeld next year, but this was a HUGE opportunity for him. Real pity.

Larkov. Wow. I thought that he'd get a top 10, but not too much more than that. For him to comeback to the chasing pack, sat in, and then went off. Didn't expect that.

Glad that Harvey didn't get a medal.

Sundby, again no individual medal. He was gifted two golds. In the relay by Krueger and Klaebo and in the team sprint by Klaebo.

Cologna surprisingly dropped off the chasing pack quite early. 50km at the Olympics really not his thing. Still another gold medal. One is better than nothing.
Sundby no individual medal today. But as you continued into the gold in the Olympics, I need to remind he did also get individual silver on Skiathlon, without anyones help or gifted.
Yeah, sorry GOLD medal I mean. I know he has a silver from the Skiathlon.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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to be fair, sundby was NOT gifted that team sprint. anyone watching it should have seen that he increased the gap opened by klaebo by several seconds - a direct and tangible contribution to the eventual gold...

that said, i continue to consider him undeserving as an athlete who is supposed to be in a hospital in stead of crushing the words best for 4 years in a row...i think his aging human machinery is finally catching up with him. bjoergen imo is another case...not yet showing as much the fissures.
 
Well, I was wrong. Well done to Niskanen, he was clearly the best today as he had enough in the tank despite being at the front from the bang.

Revisionist and totally one sided juxtapositions to Myllylä et al in the finnish media will be unbearable of course.
 
Great 50k! Well done by Niskanen. Bolshunov will be tossing and turning in his bed tonight thinking he should have made that pit stop. No surprise, Sundby home once again without an individual gold. Poltoranin low on fuel in the end.

It is all over and the future belongs to Klaebo and Bolshunov.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Bavarianrider said:
Well finally, after all These years a 50km race was raced the right way. Makes you wanna cry when you think how many gifts were handed out to Northug.
I don’t think that’s correct, many things need to be perfect for this to happen. You need no snow, not too fast conditions, a tough course, willingness to risk it all and you need extreme form in the current best long distance skier in the world. It could feasibly only happen maybe once every two years. If you think it’s just a matter of “doing it” I think you are wrong. It’s almost impossible, but Niskanen trains all year to deliver that one peak performance, same with Olsson, and that’s what it takes, plus all the above.
Also, Northug won from extremely reduced fields most of the time, it’s not easy to leave him in top shape despite what you might think.
 
Also, Olsson won 'the right way' in 2013. He and Södergren tried to race 'the right way' in Falun, but the conditions were not suited and everybody else was too cowardly to give any help to those moves and it settled down into a "wait for the last kilometre" race.

Northug did win from reduced fields, but by holding on in races of attrition primarily; no, leaving him in top shape is difficult, but all too often when he was badly-placed at the back of the group doing his usual job of picking his way through the stragglers to hang on to the group, which he was exceptional at when on form, people weren't doing anything but skiing tempo up front, giving him the chance to recover once he rejoined on the flat before drifting to the back again on the climb. That's just how Northug raced, but if people had been pushing the pace or making attacks while he was just getting on to the back after making the big effort to fight through those who were dropping to make it back to the group, it would have put more pressure on him, and all too often that didn't happen until too late in the race for it to actually be effective. At Falun you did also have the problem that Vylegzhanin and Bauer rather got in each other's way in the final kilometre when Vylegzhanin wanted to attack up the final step in the Lugnet-Arena.
 
bambino said:
BullsFan22 said:
DenisMenchov said:
BullsFan22 said:
Bolshunov looked dead, or just knew he had no chance with those skis? I don't understand why he didn't change skis. They had a huge lead, why risk it? He wasn't going to blow it. Niskanen had to win it, but won it on ski speed.
What could he do?! Niskaken made 3 seconds in the downhill just nothing you can do.

Should have changed skis. This was a straightforward ski exchange. He wasn't going to lose any time doing it. They would have left the pen at the same time, +- one or two seconds. Unless the coaches picked horrible skis, he would have had a better chance. I think this is purely inexperience on Bolshunov's part. This is his first 50km in the world cup/world champs/olympics, and only his second 50km ever.

That said, Niskanen made the race, he was the one that attacked, he worked at the front, kept his pace, didn't wait for anyone to catch him and made the necessary ski changes. I picked him as the co-favorite alongside Poltoranin, with Bolshunov as a top 3, but had doubts about Bolshunov, mostly due to experience.

As far as Poltoranin is concerned, I am really sad for him. I thought he was going to hang with Niskanen, but it wasn't meant to be. He'll be 34 for the next Olympics. 15km classic at Seefeld next year, but this was a HUGE opportunity for him. Real pity.

Larkov. Wow. I thought that he'd get a top 10, but not too much more than that. For him to comeback to the chasing pack, sat in, and then went off. Didn't expect that.

Glad that Harvey didn't get a medal.

Sundby, again no individual medal. He was gifted two golds. In the relay by Krueger and Klaebo and in the team sprint by Klaebo.

Cologna surprisingly dropped off the chasing pack quite early. 50km at the Olympics really not his thing. Still another gold medal. One is better than nothing.
Sundby no individual medal today. But as you continued into the gold in the Olympics, I need to remind he did also get individual silver on Skiathlon, without anyones help or gifted.
Exactly. Let's at least be fair towards Sundby. No reason to let our bias run wild. The man, whether you like him or not, did his share to win the two gold medals in the team events and thoroughly deserves the gold medals.
 
In addition to the conditions of possibility for races like the one today listed above, I think you need a skier (or skiers) who not only has the endurance goods required but also a) lacks tactical options given their capability profile and b) are mentally (head)strong enough to just go into the tactic of attrition via pushing a strong pace all along. Any second guessing will result in holding back just enough for the pack to catch up.

All these fell into place today.
 
Re: Re:

Nomad said:
Bavarianrider said:
All you Need is guys who aren't afraid to take risks and tackle mass start racs like an Individual start race.
Mühlegg did it in 2002
Olson did it in 2013
Niskanen did it today.

Everything else where only half hearted tries.
Mühlegg? Too funny. Lol:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_M%C3%BChlegg
Well, no Doping talk in here. But you really think Mühlegg was the only one who did this in the middle of the blood manipulation era
By the way, he was NOT tested positive in this race.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Also, Olsson won 'the right way' in 2013. He and Södergren tried to race 'the right way' in Falun, but the conditions were not suited and everybody else was too cowardly to give any help to those moves and it settled down into a "wait for the last kilometre" race.

Northug did win from reduced fields, but by holding on in races of attrition primarily; no, leaving him in top shape is difficult, but all too often when he was badly-placed at the back of the group doing his usual job of picking his way through the stragglers to hang on to the group, which he was exceptional at when on form, people weren't doing anything but skiing tempo up front, giving him the chance to recover once he rejoined on the flat before drifting to the back again on the climb. That's just how Northug raced, but if people had been pushing the pace or making attacks while he was just getting on to the back after making the big effort to fight through those who were dropping to make it back to the group, it would have put more pressure on him, and all too often that didn't happen until too late in the race for it to actually be effective. At Falun you did also have the problem that Vylegzhanin and Bauer rather got in each other's way in the final kilometre when Vylegzhanin wanted to attack up the final step in the Lugnet-Arena.
Bold: I disagree, when olsson and sodergren go all out, people will hang on for dear life, they can’t necessarily contribute. Niskanen and poltoranin didn’t need any help, they just left. You need to be insanely strong, very good skis, right conditions and as someone else mentioned, have the right mentality, no hesitation and bet it all. Lacking that, the best and safest option is to ski a steady tempo, keep in the front group and attack late. Poltoranin also attacked remember, but unsuccessful a got 15th or something even though he was probably top 3 strongest on the day. Should he have gone early or chilled with Harvey and gotten podium? You can’t bet it all like that everytime.
 
Re: Re:

Bavarianrider said:
Nomad said:
Bavarianrider said:
All you Need is guys who aren't afraid to take risks and tackle mass start racs like an Individual start race.
Mühlegg did it in 2002
Olson did it in 2013
Niskanen did it today.

Everything else where only half hearted tries.
Mühlegg? Too funny. Lol:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_M%C3%BChlegg
Well, no Doping talk in here. But you really think Mühlegg was the only one who did this in the middle of the blood manipulation era
By the way, he was NOT tested positive in this race.
Well...should we continue this on the The Clinic side then? I wasn't speculating - just pointed out a well-known fact about Mühlegg. And BTW, he did test positive during the Olympics. His Wikipedia page states: "Traces of darbepoetin were found in a random urine test on 21 February." Translation: He was found glowing with 2nd gen EPO (NESP) during the Games. All 3 of his golds from SLC were stripped.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/winterolympics2002/hi/english/other_skiing/newsid_1838000/1838493.stm
 

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