Singer01
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Top 9 within 1'04" despite all of it, how about Oeberg after Sweden being absolutely nowhere all race?
3.9km 7 1:06:30.2 +56.4
4.0km 3 Standing 0 + 0 27.0 1:07:23.7 +10.9
4.9km 2 1:10:03.6 +15.7
5.6km 2 1:10:59.4 +12.2
Finish 2 1:12:14.1 +10.7
3.9km 7 1:06:30.2 +56.4
4.0km 3 Standing 0 + 0 27.0 1:07:23.7 +10.9
4.9km 2 1:10:03.6 +15.7
5.6km 2 1:10:59.4 +12.2
Finish 2 1:12:14.1 +10.7
@Meat Puppet: The king of cross country in Nordic combined is Allesandro Pittin.
Anyway, the Biathlon was exciting.
Anyway, the Biathlon was exciting.
Re:
Ole is overrated regarding his running compared to specialists.
Björndalen won WC excatly one time. Race at the begining of seaso, where all big XC names weren't in shape because they've aimed their top shape for 1st Tour de Ski and World champs, some were missing.meat puppet said:
Ole is overrated regarding his running compared to specialists.
Singer01 said:
It seems to me that other teams are content with German domination. When the 1st exchange happened, Germany had around 10-12s lead to Austria and Norway, which isn't that big, but they just gave up there. Instead of trying to go after Germany or hold the gap as small as possible, they started to look each other and the pace was very casual.
I think that Germany would've won anyways though, but would've liked to see more fight.
Generally the thing that annoys me most about nordic combined is that it is raced like a bicycle race not like an ordinary xc race.
Singer01
BANNED
Re: Re:
OEB has 3 wc podiums, it's not Daehlie, but it's not to be sniffed at either.
IIRC Fourcade has also done early season XC races, and has done shite all by way of comparison.Kokoso said:
OEB has 3 wc podiums, it's not Daehlie, but it's not to be sniffed at either.
Fourcade seems to struggle from not having the breaks for shooting bouts. Kaisa Mäkäräinen has said similar, she's had some very good results in races of up to 10k but says that's her threshold, above that recovery becomes an issue. So for those that aren't so dependent on the breaks that the shooting bouts gives them, the biathletes can have some pretty convincing results.
For example, in the Val di Fiemme Worlds in 2013, Miriam Gössner was half a second off a bronze medal in the 10k free, Mäkäräinen and Gasparin also managed results in the top 25 or so. Miri was a full minute faster than Denise Herrmann who is now one of the quicker female biathletes, but not the outright fastest save for at Östersund where she was way up there, and therefore serves as a good comparison point too. She is the 5th fastest women's biathlon this season according to the course time analysts at the Ukrainian fed; Domracheva, Kuzmina, Mäkäräinen and Aymonier - who is also a good comparison point to use, though transferred much younger so doesn't have the same body of work to compare as an XC skier as Denise - are the four who are faster. Lars Berger not only has that anomalous gold in the 15k at Sapporo (he was lucky with conditions, mind) but was also 4th in the World Championships two years earlier in Oberstdorf and, as well as OEB, he and Svendsen have done many relays for the Norwegian team, including in Lars' case a gold medal at the World Championships in the format (Gössner also has silver medals from the 2009 Worlds in Liberec where she set fastest leg time as a 19yo biathlete, and the 2010 Olympics when she admittedly spent the whole season on the XC team).
In the 50k at Sochi, due to fatigue, illnesses and injuries, a few XC teams were down on numbers and biathletes stepped in. This race isn't really representative as it's two and a half times longer than any biathlon race you'd normally see, but in that Arnd Peiffer was 40th and Erik Lesser 42nd, Milanko Petrović was 50th. The two Germans rank 14th and 15th for the season this year in terms of biathletes' speed.
I'd say that the likes of JTB and Fourcade could be relatively competitive over a relay leg at least, I reckon JTB can be more competitive than Fourcade over a 15k free as from his goes at Ruka and Sjusjøen we've seen Martin can be pretty competitive at the halfway stage then he falls away the longer the race goes on. They have a fairly sizable gap ahead of the rest of the field ski-speed-wise, then Benedikt Doll and Simon Schempp are next, although with Germany fairly peripheral in men's XC with their golden generation retiring, they probably wouldn't be too much of a downgrade.
For example, in the Val di Fiemme Worlds in 2013, Miriam Gössner was half a second off a bronze medal in the 10k free, Mäkäräinen and Gasparin also managed results in the top 25 or so. Miri was a full minute faster than Denise Herrmann who is now one of the quicker female biathletes, but not the outright fastest save for at Östersund where she was way up there, and therefore serves as a good comparison point too. She is the 5th fastest women's biathlon this season according to the course time analysts at the Ukrainian fed; Domracheva, Kuzmina, Mäkäräinen and Aymonier - who is also a good comparison point to use, though transferred much younger so doesn't have the same body of work to compare as an XC skier as Denise - are the four who are faster. Lars Berger not only has that anomalous gold in the 15k at Sapporo (he was lucky with conditions, mind) but was also 4th in the World Championships two years earlier in Oberstdorf and, as well as OEB, he and Svendsen have done many relays for the Norwegian team, including in Lars' case a gold medal at the World Championships in the format (Gössner also has silver medals from the 2009 Worlds in Liberec where she set fastest leg time as a 19yo biathlete, and the 2010 Olympics when she admittedly spent the whole season on the XC team).
In the 50k at Sochi, due to fatigue, illnesses and injuries, a few XC teams were down on numbers and biathletes stepped in. This race isn't really representative as it's two and a half times longer than any biathlon race you'd normally see, but in that Arnd Peiffer was 40th and Erik Lesser 42nd, Milanko Petrović was 50th. The two Germans rank 14th and 15th for the season this year in terms of biathletes' speed.
I'd say that the likes of JTB and Fourcade could be relatively competitive over a relay leg at least, I reckon JTB can be more competitive than Fourcade over a 15k free as from his goes at Ruka and Sjusjøen we've seen Martin can be pretty competitive at the halfway stage then he falls away the longer the race goes on. They have a fairly sizable gap ahead of the rest of the field ski-speed-wise, then Benedikt Doll and Simon Schempp are next, although with Germany fairly peripheral in men's XC with their golden generation retiring, they probably wouldn't be too much of a downgrade.
Re: Re:
I disagree. At the time Bjørndalen was among the best xc skiers in free style in Norway and an obvious candidate for a spot on the relay team. In that 30k in SLC I would say he was on route for a bronze medal (Elofsson was on route for the gold).
Kokoso said:
I disagree. At the time Bjørndalen was among the best xc skiers in free style in Norway and an obvious candidate for a spot on the relay team. In that 30k in SLC I would say he was on route for a bronze medal (Elofsson was on route for the gold).
Singer01 said:
back in 2010 NC did the final climb of the Tour de Ski
XC
http://medias4.fis-ski.com/pdf/2010/CC/2671/2010CC2671RL.pdf
NC
http://medias2.fis-ski.com/pdf/2010/NK/4112/2010NK4112ROF.pdf
Gottwald took 70 seconds less than the best on a 1km shorter and easier course so he probably would have been somewhere between Heikkinen and Perl timewise on the full course.
Re: Re:
And I was't comparing Ole and Fourcade.Regarding that; I don't know In direct comparison Martin was faster than Ole, so for me winner is clear.
You don't have to defend Ole; I was not sniffing at Ole's results.Singer01 said:
And I was't comparing Ole and Fourcade.Regarding that; I don't know In direct comparison Martin was faster than Ole, so for me winner is clear.
Re: Re:
Nobody of them knows that most Ole's results looked like this: 23, 18, 18, 13, 10, 40, 16, 25, 13...
Most of the people think that Ole won small number of world cup races.Norbea said:
Nobody of them knows that most Ole's results looked like this: 23, 18, 18, 13, 10, 40, 16, 25, 13...
Re: Re:
Having initiated the discussion about OEB's skiing talent, let me emphasise that to me his SLC 2002 30k performance is the most important single piece of evidence. Should have phrased the sentence about this race and his WC success better.Kokoso said:
Singer01
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Conditions look better for the mens relay, probably means there will be a more 'fair' result, however probably not as much excitement. Fourcade and Boe on the 3rd legs, weird.
And France twice on the penalty loop on the first stand shoot, though if anything like yesterday that doesn't rule them out.
And France twice on the penalty loop on the first stand shoot, though if anything like yesterday that doesn't rule them out.
i dont think there is a swede in the world watching the relay who has not LOLed at their nordic little bro :lol:
Re: Re:
I am sure that is correct. However there was nothing wrong with OEB getting a place on the Norwegian olympic team in xc at that exact time. He qualified by good performances in national races and it seemed convincingly so that he might be able to challenge the podium in those olympics in peak form.
Svendsen failed again on the last shooting in difficult conditions. It has paid of for Sweden to practice in windy conditions before the games. The only one who did that regularly before the games on the Norwegian team was OEB. In retrospect he should have been on the team instead of Birkeland.
Kokoso said:
I am sure that is correct. However there was nothing wrong with OEB getting a place on the Norwegian olympic team in xc at that exact time. He qualified by good performances in national races and it seemed convincingly so that he might be able to challenge the podium in those olympics in peak form.
Svendsen failed again on the last shooting in difficult conditions. It has paid of for Sweden to practice in windy conditions before the games. The only one who did that regularly before the games on the Norwegian team was OEB. In retrospect he should have been on the team instead of Birkeland.
Re: Re:
I am not saying it was wrong that Ole was in Norwegian XC team back then, am I? Back then it was surely right because Norway quite sucked in free technique back then and was regularly beaten by others. Hence they were forced to use Berger and Ole.
My point is Ole is overrated. Everybody thinks he won small number of world cups or that he was contendet every time he stepped in. True is, most of the time he was pretty mediocre (pretty much as Fourcade who some want to compare with Ole all the time).
Btw. Fourcade participated in much less xc world cups than Ole. And, if I remember correctly, his performace was at least once negatively influenced by worsening conditions.
Norbea said:
I am not saying it was wrong that Ole was in Norwegian XC team back then, am I? Back then it was surely right because Norway quite sucked in free technique back then and was regularly beaten by others. Hence they were forced to use Berger and Ole. My point is Ole is overrated. Everybody thinks he won small number of world cups or that he was contendet every time he stepped in. True is, most of the time he was pretty mediocre (pretty much as Fourcade who some want to compare with Ole all the time).
Btw. Fourcade participated in much less xc world cups than Ole. And, if I remember correctly, his performace was at least once negatively influenced by worsening conditions.
Interesting is, that Fourcade lost 43.2 on 10 km F and was 22nd, whereas Ole lost 1:19.1 and was 23rd.
So it's really, really hard to compare the duo based on xc world cup results. Especially when Fourcade only participated twice in world cup and at least one of those races was negatively influenced by deteriorating track conditions.
So it's really, really hard to compare the duo based on xc world cup results. Especially when Fourcade only participated twice in world cup and at least one of those races was negatively influenced by deteriorating track conditions.
Re: Re:
Well, I guess I didn't know that "everybody" thinks he was that good. It is very few who would think there would even be a point in trying to compete against world xc athletes. Ole and Martin are among those who might stand a chance at any real result.
When it comes to Nordic Combined the last one I can recall having any chance against specialized xc athletes would be Bård Jørgen Elden. He was never a good jumper and might have had a better career if he had specialized in xc. It is more common that the best jumpers are close to the elite jumpers. I remember Bjarte Engen Vik jumped in the National Championship and got a 3rd place
Kokoso said:Norbea said:Kokoso said:Norbea said:
My point is Ole is overrated. Everybody thinks he won small number of world cups or that he was contendet every time he stepped in. True is, most of the time he was pretty mediocre (pretty much as Fourcade who some want to compare with Ole all the time).
Btw. Fourcade participated in much less xc world cups than Ole. And, if I remember correctly, his performace was at least once negatively influenced by worsening conditions.
Well, I guess I didn't know that "everybody" thinks he was that good. It is very few who would think there would even be a point in trying to compete against world xc athletes. Ole and Martin are among those who might stand a chance at any real result.
When it comes to Nordic Combined the last one I can recall having any chance against specialized xc athletes would be Bård Jørgen Elden. He was never a good jumper and might have had a better career if he had specialized in xc. It is more common that the best jumpers are close to the elite jumpers. I remember Bjarte Engen Vik jumped in the National Championship and got a 3rd place
If I'm reading the course information in the start list correctly, that's about 1900 meters/6,000 ft. of total climbing in the 50 K? How does that compare with other Olympic or World Cup 50Ks?
http://medias4.fis-ski.com/pdf/2018/CC/2163/2018CC2163SL.pdf
http://medias4.fis-ski.com/pdf/2018/CC/2163/2018CC2163SL.pdf
Massive fail by La Gazzetta, today the still featured Klaebo as the 5 star favourite for the race and didn't even mention Poltoranin.
^^wtf is wrong with la gazzetta ...
klaebo did not plan the 50k, isn't in the start list and in fact is ...in Norway already for at least half a day.
could be a time zone reporting error ?
yep. polto is a fave as are niskanen, cologna, sundby, dyrhaug, harvey(fork him) and perhaps a pair of young russians. i expect a lot from bolshunov remembering his meteoric 2nd leg in the relay... very difficult to predict b/c it will depend on the tactics which in turn will depend on the wind and the conditions.
i have a hunch that sundby will NOT get an individual gold again. hope niskanen is smarter than busting himself as in the skiathlon.
...klaebo did not plan the 50k, isn't in the start list and in fact is ...in Norway already for at least half a day.
could be a time zone reporting error ?
yep. polto is a fave as are niskanen, cologna, sundby, dyrhaug, harvey(fork him) and perhaps a pair of young russians. i expect a lot from bolshunov remembering his meteoric 2nd leg in the relay... very difficult to predict b/c it will depend on the tactics which in turn will depend on the wind and the conditions.
i have a hunch that sundby will NOT get an individual gold again. hope niskanen is smarter than busting himself as in the skiathlon.
Re:
I don't think so, the newspaper came out today and the klaebo thing was already reported by various international websites yesterday and even before that, I get that XC skiing is no longer a priority for them, but come on.python said:^^wtf is wrong with la gazzetta
klaebo did not plan the 50k, isn't in the start list and in fact is ...in Norway already for at least half a day.
could be a time zone reporting error ?
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