Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[ToreBear]

so what exactly happened to paal golberg ?

i did not see the semifinals but i read what i could and still don't understand...did he fall, have a mental breakdown, a physical trauma (muscle, knee?), health issues (cold?).

the reason i am particularly interested is that i found some post race comments by the winners curious.

kriukov said that when he saw golberg in action in one of the legs, he realized that paal was going at his limit when the pace was less than red hot. he than communicated to the 'bear' to raise the pace at some point which the bear did dropping paal ? i simply find that for an athlete of paals talent, to give northug a 20 second deficit has to have some better explanation ?

Thats a good question. All I have heard is speculation. The bear being able to drop Golberg is just weird, "not normal". Though in this case I think the reason Golberg was dropped was with Golberg and not with his competitors. Normally I would have expected him to follow without any problems. Perhaps struggling a bit to follow Hellner in the last leg of the final,

What I saw happen was everything looking as expected until the last leg. On first hill from the exchange when the tempo was increased, as expected, Golberg began to fall behind. It looked like suddenly his legs were filled with lactate. Then he kept pushing and it probably got worse. Add panic to that and we have a blackout. He appeared to have totally lost it on the last hill. Being passed by Japan.

I'm a bit skeptical of taking post race interviews at face value. It could be Kiriukov saw it like you described. It could also be the interviewer asking questions in a way that he got the answer he wanted. It could be mind games(Kiriukov is a smart guy). Or it could be language issues. Kiriukovs English is not that good.

But, for Golberg to break like that it would be sensible for some weakness to show up earlier. But I expect the coaches who know Golberg well to see that as well as Kiriukov. So maybe there was something to spot earlier? I don't know.

As for the reasons. I'm not sure there is just one factor. I'm thinking it could be a combination. So variables that could have influence:
- Mental pressure, knowing you are the weakest part of the team.
- Sickness in it's early stages
- Not adapting well to the snow conditions
- Something with the altitude(IIRC it's 900m)

I don't think the sprinters went through an altitude camp, though I could be mistaken. There could also be some unknown factor relating to anaerobic performance at altitude. Sprint relay is very new, and the difficulty of the courses has increased these last few years.

So thats my brain storming of possible reasons. Your rampant speculation is as good as mine, probably better. Any ideas?

 

[search]

- Sickness in it's early stages

with Sundby being reported to be sick yesterday and Jacobsen having to miss the competition today due to illness I would not wonder if there was something going around.

we will see today if anyone else is hampered by it as well, I think.

 

[ToreBear]

with Sundby being reported to be sick yesterday and Jacobsen having to miss the competition today due to illness I would not wonder if there was something going around.

we will see today if anyone else is hampered by it as well, I think.

Yep, good point! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they stay healthy.

 

[python]

<snip>
So thats my brain storming of possible reasons. Your rampant speculation is as good as mine, probably better. Any ideas?

thanks tore ! i don't know if i have a better answer, particularly not seeing the event...i just found it extremely surprising (not so much the fact that paal has fallen behind) but the 20 seconds margin !! it appears he hit the wall, which perhaps points to a physical (rather than mental) explanation.

one possibility is that being a young talent with a relatively limited experience, he might have made mistakes during a CRITICAL inter-leg recovery periods (4 minutes or so by 3 times). we the fans seeing everything from the side lines may under appreciate that they are standing there in the cold, (supposed to) sip a drink, have some quick-acting glucose and being massaged...any slight dehydration or not having muscles sufficiently warm can effect the recovery.


you said it was his last exchange, thus the accumulation of fatigue (and the clearance of lactic) could have been sub-optimum.

that. or he was getting a cold he did not tell the coaches out of pride or fear not look a woos ?

 

[maltiv]

Oh no, Gössner 0,5 seconds from bronze..

Gössner in top shape would've won today.

 

[meat puppet]

so, johaug did it. hats off to her!

factoring from how miri and mäkäräinen did, darya could have podiumed or got 4th, IMHO.

as to gössner winning: Im not seeing it. johaug and björgen are too tough.

 

[maltiv]

so, johaug did it. hats off to her!

factoring from how miri and mäkäräinen did, darya could have podiumed or got 4th, IMHO.

as to gössner winning: Im not seeing it. johaug and björgen are too tough.

Assuming equal form as in Biathlon worlds, Gössner is almost a minute off her top form imo.

 

[python]

given how little a surprise it was to see the Norwegians taking up the podium again, i do appreciate gössner's terrific performance. i honestly thought that her place was at best in the tail end of the top 10.

hat's off to gössner . and i somehow did NOT know that she's half-norwegian. surely, THAT explains a lot . i also know that if all those girls ahead of her had to carry their own rifles today (even never firing a shot) they'd be lucky to get into the top 20.

and chekalaeva's 3d is another surprise, though a mild one.

 

[meat puppet]

that might be so, though I doubt the form depreciation can be quantified as linearly as you suggest.

IMHO the decisive factor would be tactics and the non-interval nature of xc racing. miri might be the quickest over the redline, but björgen and johaug beat her at the 105% FTP at which these ~25min races are run.

might be wrong, though. just the way I see it.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Göessner should stay with cross country skiing.
She really could turn into a powerhouse here.
If you are world class in areal sport you shouldn't settle for a gimmick sport like biathlon.

 

[maltiv]

Göessner should stay with cross country skiing.
She really could turn into a powerhouse here.
If you are world class in areal sport you shouldn't settle for a gimmick sport like biathlon.

Biathlon is a far bigger sport internationally though. Just compare the amount of viewers in any biathlon event with for example TdS...

 

[Bavarianrider]

Biathlon is a far bigger sport internationally though. Just compare the amount of viewers in any biathlon event with for example TdS...

It's a media hyped sport in a few countries.
However the actual sport is really really really really really really small.

 

[TomasC]

...i also know that if all those girls ahead of her had to carry their own rifles today (even never firing a shot) they'd be lucky to get into the top 20.
...

Wait - did Gössner actually carry her rifle today? That would explain why she didn't win.

 

[python]

the tomorrow's 15 km individual skate course:
(i cropped the small image out of the official course pdf, the rest can be found there)

they will do the loop 3 times.

i don't think this course suits northug particularly but seems perfect for cologna.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Göessner should stay with cross country skiing.
She really could turn into a powerhouse here.
If you are world class in areal sport you shouldn't settle for a gimmick sport like biathlon.

Is she not world class in biathlon? I mean, she's in the top 10 of the World Rankings and has won 3 races. Biathlon is much bigger than XC skiing in Germany, which lest we forget, is where she's from (unless you're a total Bavarian nationalist nut of course). It is true that there is more money to be made in winnings on the XC world circuit... but there might be more endorsements, appearance fees etc to gain from biathlon.

And plus, we've already learnt in the past: she chose to go back to biathlon rather than stay in the cross country team for 2010-11 because she likes biathlon more.

You yourself said she's more of a Lars Berger, and always will be... but there's a hell of a lot of cross-country skiers who'd love to have his cross-country palmarès.

Plus, you defend XC skiing as a 'real' sport as opposed to biathlon, but this comes on the back of several pages of your complaining (with my support it must be added) that XC skiing is killing itself by moving away from real skiing events and in favour of short, crappy sprint events and long, crappy mass start events where the sprint is the important thing. In addition to that, biathlon seems to be slightly marginalising the Individual, which is the least suited format for Gössner, in favour of events that do not penalise inaccuracy as much, which is ideal for Miri.

It's a media hyped sport in a few countries.
However the actual sport is really really really really really really small.

78 women started today (with one DNS). 114 women started the sprint in Nové Město two weeks ago (with one DNS). The number of realistic potential winners was far higher too. Is XC skiing really that much bigger than biathlon?

I like the idea of her being a cross-sport athlete. Biathlon keeps her happy, Cross-country keeps the specialists honest. It's good to see a measure of where the top biathletes are at, skiing-wise, as well. It does put a bit more pressure on Evi Sachenbacher-Stehle to perform in Oslo though, since it's her third chance at the World Cup level as a biathlete, and she's really struggled for ski speed at the other events.

 

[maltiv]

It's a media hyped sport in a few countries.
However the actual sport is really really really really really really small.

Both sports are small.

Today there was about 2000 spectators for the XC WC. In Biathlon Worlds there was an average of 30 000 spectators on the stadium!

Biathlon is sent by more TV stations, viewed by significantly more people, and has more active athletes. I can't see how you can possible argue that XC skiing is bigger.

 

[ToreBear]

thanks tore ! i don't know if i have a better answer, particularly not seeing the event...i just found it extremely surprising (not so much the fact that paal has fallen behind) but the 20 seconds margin !! it appears he hit the wall, which perhaps points to a physical (rather than mental) explanation.

one possibility is that being a young talent with a relatively limited experience, he might have made mistakes during a CRITICAL inter-leg recovery periods (4 minutes or so by 3 times). we the fans seeing everything from the side lines may under appreciate that they are standing there in the cold, (supposed to) sip a drink, have some quick-acting glucose and being massaged...any slight dehydration or not having muscles sufficiently warm can effect the recovery.


you said it was his last exchange, thus the accumulation of fatigue (and the clearance of lactic) could have been sub-optimum.

that. or he was getting a cold he did not tell the coaches out of pride or fear not look a woos ?

Recovery is a very good point! Who knows what their routine is. I don't think he would have a problem saying he felt bad if he knew it. If there was anything wrong I doubt he had any idea.

Well we could make a lot of theories. Personally, I'm starting to lean towards him watching solsidan before bed.

 

[python]

you guys seem to have a pointless argument with bavarianrider about which sport is bigger

i have personally not researched the issue and have no idea if he is right, but he seemed to have implied bigger=better earning potential.

is bigger=more spectators ?
is bigger=more registered racers ?
is bigger=more public and private money invested into the sport ?
is bigger=more media exposure ?
is bigger=more regular population folk particiape in the sport ?......

while it goes without saying that if you meet someone in a public park skiing recreationally, they almost certainly don't carry a rifle, it is also equally true that the biothlon is more of a spectator honey (as a competitive sport) in some nations that matter economically - germany comes to mind.

the problem with all pointless arguments is that we need to agree on the argument point first.

and of course if we are considering what's best for miri we need to ask HER first.

i am totally comfortable with her choice - though i am more of a xc ski fan and a practitioner - but i consider myself lucky being able to watch the incredible gal in both sports and a very pretty gal to boot

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The literal prize money is higher from FIS than IBU, but the indirect earning potential (eg sponsorships, endorsements etc) for a successful biathlete in Germany is higher, especially for a likable and photogenic one like Miri. Red Bull is a pretty useful sponsor to have on board.

Besides, sure Lars Berger could have won a bunch more than he did if he'd stuck to XC, but he didn't want to. Miri's the same. She's explained in interviews before, she likes biathlon more. Fair enough.

Besides, let's face it, biathlon is made more fun by having characters like her and Lars around. They're unpredictable, and unpredictability is fun. Except when you routinely root for people like them (as I do) and have to watch through your fingers when they line up in the standing position. Yet that's part of the fun. Don't tell me the Pokljuka pursuit wasn't an epic race. I was on the edge of my seat. Gabriela Soukalová probably has recurring nightmares about looking over her shoulder and seeing Gößner.

 

[ToreBear]

I had to watch the race again before I could get a clear idea of the race.

One think I'm sure of is that I prefer the mass start. The fis timing thingy did not want to play nice. At the end the tv graphics also had problems. And the producer kept focusing on the non seeded fillers at the start.

And generally all you see is skiers passing the same damn spot. You can't tell how they are skiing except when they are at that spot. Cornering ability? No idea. Downhill handling? no idea. Ability to change technique with the terrain? No idea.

For me it takes the fun out of watching. And all the switching back and fourth between skiers makes me dizzy. Per Elofsson talked about making the 50k in Falun in 2015 an interval race, that they were hoping to push it through. It might be less stressful to watch over a longer distance. But I think this is why I didn't watch much skiing in the 90s and 00s. A still picture with people moving passed it with a clock next to it is not interactive enough for my feeble mind.

As for it being more fair, I don't buy that. I'm pretty sure Gøssner would have taken the bronze had she started after Tchjekaleva. Nah I'm glad the majority of races are mass start.


As for this race, it was very exciting, Adding the Biathletes into the mix gave it an extra edge.

Gøssner was very impressive. That she was so much better than Makerainen is interesting. My impression is that Gøssner is very good in skate 2 as opposed to Kalla who is still lacking in that technique. Also I think gøssner is very good donwhill and with cornering. That gave her a lot against Weng and Kalla who are behind in this area. I don't know how good Tjekaleva and Stephen are in this area. Stephen is extreme uphill as her times in TDS showed.

I hope Gøssner considers doing XC more. She can really improve a lot, and the Germans need her. I'm thinking that if she is tired of the emotional roller coaster on hitting and missing, she could do XC skiing. A millimeter on the shooting range can mean win or loose, that is tough if you are competing for Germany, and shooting is your weak spot. I doubt if she focused more on XC she couldn't come back to biathlon later if she missed it. Perhaps some success in XC will help her deal with the pressure on the shooting range.

I don't see a reason for her considering where the money is. She will make enough if she is in the top in both sports. The important thing should be what she thinks is more fun and rewarding. Thinking about Neuner, I think the ups and downs of the Biathlon burned her out.

In XC one has some idea of where one can place, and so the expectations will be adapted. Well I hope this race gave her some things to think about. Though I wonder what her Classic skills are like.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Gössner was originally an Alpine skier as a child, switched to cross-country/biathlon after a major crash when she was about 14. Makes sense that she'd be pretty good at downhill and cornering with Alpine ingrained in her thinking. You say that the Germans need her in cross-country skiing, but right now they need her in biathlon too. Andrea Henkel won't be around forever, you know! XC is always, obviously, a very good backup option for her, and certainly I could anticipate her doing both come Olympic time, at least entering the relay as an XC skier. I think the Olympics being just one year away and her being the great white hope for German biathlon at the moment is going to keep her skiskyting for a while yet though. I hope so, at least. The pressure coming from the German fans will hopefully back off a bit in time to come, this year the men's team have flubbed their lines and the fans are kind of demanding a new Neuner, a role Miri is far too easy to plug into and make unrealistic expectations of her as a result. The young German biathlon girls - Preuß, Dahlmeier, Hinz, Karo Horchler - all look pretty handy and this will take some pressure off her in the time to come. I don't see her focusing on XC as a first option over biathlon in the near future, more that I see her as being more open to compete in a few events a few times a year, especially if she's not in overall WC contention in the biathlon, eg if she's missed a few races for illness or injury, as she has had a few issues with those in the past.

It might be interesting one year to see some biathletes compete in the Tour de Ski, probably with no interest in the GC with distance classical races to do, but certainly to go for a stage or two. I don't see that happening with Miri any time soon though, for one very simple, obvious reason: early January is when the German rounds of the biathlon World Cup take place... and a week before that is the mostly-for-fun Garmisch-Partenkirchen event in front of her hometown fans. Mäkäräinen is more likely as she gets older, and also as she's already won the overall WC and some World Championships medals. If she picks up something from the Olympics, biathlon is more or less mission accomplished for her (this was another reason for Neuner to give up; she'd won so much that there was little left for her to achieve other than stats-padding - and I don't think she was all that bothered about making it to Forsberg's record for wins - the expectations of the media and fans for her victory were getting bigger and bigger as the reward for wins was getting smaller) whereas Gößner still has much in the way of unfinished business in biathlon. Martin Fourcade on the other hand, he might be tempted to give it a go. There were still noises about him taking part in the relay in Val di Fiemme despite that that would mean flying back and forth from Oslo, whereas the women can fly one-way by competing on Thursday in Italy and Friday in Norway. Martin doesn't come across as being fixated on statistical superiority, so I can see him getting bored and trying something else long before he gets anywhere near OEB's records. He botched his attempt at the 15k in November, but after 10k he was among the quickest, he just collapsed completely on the final 5. There's promise there, if he has the inclination to persevere.

Liz Stephen was 2nd in the Lysebotn Opp in September, behind Johaug but ahead of Weng and Steira, so the severe climbing certainly suits her.

 

[ToreBear]

the tomorrow's 15 km individual skate course:
(i cropped the small image out of the official course pdf, the rest can be found there)

they will do the loop 3 times.

i don't think this course suits northug particularly but seems perfect for cologna.

Actually it's not that bad for him. He has problems when he has to use one technique monotonously. He seems to enjoy skate 2 a lot, and his strength is his ability to switch techniques quickly and use the terrain to his advantage.

But of course the men use skate 3 where the women are more likely to use skate 2, so I could be wrong.

Anyway Cologna could be the favorite, but I'm not so sure. There are a lot of guys who could win. Of course cologna has the times of those ahead of him giving him an advantage, but he could also have become content with his gold.

Tomorrow will be exciting.

 

[MrRoboto]

Per Elofsson talked about making the 50k in Falun in 2015 an interval race, that they were hoping to push it through.

The organizers for the championship in Oslo 2 years ago tried pushing through similar things (making it closer to the classic Holmenkollen 50 km), but wasn't allowed to. Can't really see it happening in Falun then.

 

[ToreBear]

Gössner was originally an Alpine skier as a child, switched to cross-country/biathlon after a major crash when she was about 14. Makes sense that she'd be pretty good at downhill and cornering with Alpine ingrained in her thinking.

snip.....

Yes poor Miri, shes needed everywhere.

But you are right she could do both.

I hope she focuses more on XC. I think she would benefit from a more steady progression than the ups or downs of hits and misses. But thats just my opinion.

 

[ToreBear]

The organizers for the championship in Oslo 2 years ago tried pushing through similar things (making it closer to the classic Holmenkollen 50 km), but wasn't allowed to. Can't really see it happening in Falun then.

I don't know how hard they were pushing though. Anyway I hope they keep doing mass starts a few more years. The 50k races are so rare, that the skiers have not adapted their tactics enough. I believe there are a lot of scenarios to be played out by a good ski team in such an event. They just have to think that silver is a good medal and drag Northug along with them, thats all.