Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[python]

my quick thoughts after just ended quals...

oestberg seems back in fighting finishing strong after stina...parma was strong. the 2 leading russian gals (nepryeva and beloroukova) are squarely in with a relative surprise of sedova making it too (she hates sprints).

some are still on the course, klaebo on the top is no surprise, followed by the strogly recovered iversen and pelle. also, it is obvious that mr. U is back to his sprinting ambitions taking the 5th. the tour leader bolshu is squarely in but losing to the winner a lot - 7.5 sec. which may mean he'd be lucky to make to a semi. also, noteworthy is a very strong showing from cologna (well, it's his swiss territory after all)...fair placing by krueger, which bodes well for his podium on the last day.

overall, the qual results should NOT be over interpreted b/c this sprint is a lot more about a good recovery than in toblah - it is at 1600+. meaning those starting in late QFs will be at a distict disadvantage in terms of recovery.

cologna and mr U do well in such situations. as does pelle and almost all french.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Tomorrow Bolshu needs to make a move, he must use his superior classics technique in order to build up a lead. I think Ustiugov is a clear favorite for the overall though.

Nice to see Sedova in the QF, if she can keep up in the following days, she can produce real entertainment and come from behind on the Final Climb. But Oestberg seems to be in the driving seat so far,

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well definitely an interesting Situation with the 3 guys in front and "old guns" Sundby and Cologna already far behind. I hope this means These two 'll blow up the race and go full throttle from the start tomorrow.

There are two big question marks concerning tomorrow's race. First of all, snowfall is predicted for tomorrow, so waxing could be crucial.
Secondly, what loop will they use? There has been hardly any snow in Oberstdorf over the last weeks and temperatures were rather modest. Therefore, I fear that they settled for a rather easy one again. The worst case would be if they use last year's "Mario Kart" Loop again. That would be astrocius but I wouldn't rule it out. Unfortuantely the Homepage has no Information about the Loop they'll use.

 

[BullsFan22]

First off, happy New Year to everyone!!

The course didn't bring as much trouble as I thought it would, so that's good. I still don't like the inclusion of the jump and the bumps. Shame for Weng, she feared she may have broken her hand. What's her status now? Can she/will she continue? Her performances have steadily gone down since the TDS last season. I guess she dealt with some sickness prior to this season.

Nobody was touching Nilsson today. That was even more impressive than Toblach and her victory on this very course two years ago. Will she rethink her plan? Will she continue in the tour or was this her last stage? Two years ago after the Val Mustair sprint (Val Mustair was the first stage then) she kept rolling, winning both stages in Oberstdorf and one in Val di Fiemme. She's too far back to challenge for the win, so maybe it won't make sense for her to continue.

The Americans doing well today is no surprise, skate sprints on hard packed conditions is what they've thrived on in the last few years. Caldwell will probably abandon the tour seeing that she's a pure sprinter (though she's had a few decent top 30 distance races and has raced relays before-including the Olympics last year). Diggins is once again a threat. The key for her will be to not lose too much time in the two classic races. Bjornsen is probably to far back to challenge for a podium, she's 1:20 behind. She'll have to motor and get bonus seconds in the two mass start races.

The Russian women didn't ski tactically very well today. Nepryaeva left far too much ground to try and make up and she missed out on, potentially, valuable seconds towards the overall. It would suit her if this were a classic sprint, but still, I thought for sure she'd make the semis, at least. She and Belorukova tried to find a gap but were closed off (not on purpose, simply reacting too late) and then didn't have enough snow to gain spots. Still, not too much damage was done. Nepryaeva is only 15 seconds out and Belorukova 31. They have good form and tomorrow is a classic race, so if their skis are good, they will challenge for the podium. You'd expect Nepryaeva to be the better distance skier, but Belorukova has skied exceptionally well in the distance races so far this season.

Oestberg appears to be Norway's only serious challenger for title. Jacobsen skied a surprisingly strong race today. Weng with the fall and injury. Hopefully it's not too serious. If it's a break then that will seriously hurt (no pun inded) her chances for the World's, nevermind the Tour.

Parmakoski is the only Finn (men or women) that's done anything of not at the Tour so far. Real pity for the Finns that they haven't figured in more, but they are missing the Niskanen siblings, a load of sprinters are not here and Kylloenen is actually coming back this season after poor form last year and an injury in summer/fall. Heikkinen is too unpredictable and again, two sprints in the first three stages is not really his thing.

The men's race will, I think, hinge on the next two races. The conditions are supposed to be tough in Germany. Snowing all day tomorrow and Thursday. Mass start race with bonus seconds up for grabs and then a handicap pursuit. One figures that top three will fight for every bonus sprint and assuming that none of them blow up while trying to pick up those seconds, they will challenge for the podium. The handicap race on Thursday will be interesting. What will the gaps be? Will the gaps be closer or will someone pull ahead? If it continues to snow then it will be very tough for one person to stay away or at least not lose too much of his advantage in the falling snow. The groups will form and there could be one or two big groups chasing the top three or two or maybe only one skier. Two seasons ago Ustiugov won the first five stages. The handicap start race in Oberstdorf he more than doubled his advantage to Sundby. There was snowfall that day, but nothing too major for Ustiugov to lose his advantage. Everyone was too far to really challenge him or gain significant time back on him. In the past, the Russians have employed team tactics in these mass starts, and I am betting on the same tomorrow. They'll want to try and break Klaebo but also not give away anything on the strong climbers like Cologna, Krüger, Manificat and Spitsov...

I really wish they picked better races for the tour. If you want to have two sprints, one of them has to be classic. That means at least 3 classic races to 4 skate races. That's much more respectable. But it's not just the style, it's the stale, boring distances. 15km races and sprints. As I said yesterday-where is the prologue, the classic sprint, the individual classic, the short 5/10kms, the Cortina to Toblach pursuit...Yeah you can't have everything in one week, but at least alternate something. I've mentioned this before, but Mignerey and FIS were whining and moaning about keeping classic skiing alive, yet they've quietly forgotten (ignored?) everything from what they said and what many wanted three seasons ago and they just kept doing what they want to do. In my opinion it's a shame for the sport. Not only are they not getting enough interest from non-traditional audiences, but they may start losing interest from traditional countries. I hope they take a serious long look in the offseason and do something about it for the future.

 

[Singer01]

Anybody not see Nilsson overtaking Bjoergen's sprint tally? She is so far ahead right now.

 

[python]

the fis STILL did NOT publish the course details nor the start lists. this is unusual so close to the start !

(pardon, few seconds ago i got a notification about the ladies and men's race but none about the course yet...)

while we cam reasonably know who starts,and their positions, in a mass start race it is the course that matters most.

in obertsdorf, no matter which way they go, it is crazy difficult to get to the front through a maze of poles and skis. it is going to be fencing admixed to skiing. Particularly difficult it's going to be if a team (it can only be the norwegians or russians) decides on a team tactic...that is, controlling the front. on paper, the russians have an advantage in terms of the classic proclivity, but the starting positions in the top 10 favour norway. I expect aggressive racing from ustiougov trying to hold the front for as long as possible. iversen can be just as aggressive. i doubt sundby will make a difference but cologna CAN.

if the results of the classic racing this season are to go by, bolshu should prevail handily. but this is going to be the 4th race in 5 hard days.

thus his past performance aint guarantee of any thing. curiously, the norwegian media is hyping klaebo for tomorrow, even though they say it will be decided tomorrow if he goes on.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Men's final was a brutal race, semis and 1/4 were no joke too. So it can be a good thing for Sundby, Cologna and Bolshu that they didn't go through. Hopefully Ilvo can do something tomorrow, he's been non-existent this season, also Poltoranin as well.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Re:

the fis STILL did NOT publish the course details nor the start lists. this is unusual so close to the start !

(pardon, few seconds ago i got a notification about the ladies and men's race but none about the course yet...)

while we cam reasonably know who starts,and their positions, in a mass start race it is the course that matters most.

in obertsdorf, no matter which way they go, it is crazy difficult to get to the front through a maze of poles and skis. it is going to be fencing admixed to skiing. Particularly difficult it's going to be if a team (it can only be the norwegians or russians) decides on a team tactic...that is, controlling the front. on paper, the russians have an advantage in terms of the classic proclivity, but the starting positions in the top 10 favour norway. I expect aggressive racing from ustiougov trying to hold the front for as long as possible. iversen can be just as aggressive. i doubt sundby will make a difference but cologna CAN.

if the results of the classic racing this season are to go by, bolshu should prevail handily. but this is going to be the 4th race in 5 hard days.

thus his past performance aint guarantee of any thing. curiously, the norwegian media is hyping klaebo for tomorrow, even though they say it will be decided tomorrow if he goes on.

Well, you can use reasonable tracks in Oberstdorf, if you want to. Burgstall is a very tough climb that allows for some serious damage if you try. (in 05 no one tried). However, they hardly ever use it these days and even if they do they don't go up all the way. My biggest fear is that the Germans saw some success in that joke of arace last year, so maybe they are trying to use that same wack ass trak again. The fact that they still didn't release the track concerns me even more. Still, the track they used in 2017 for the skiathlon sucked ass, too. There were hardly any gaps. I really hope they suprise em but i am expecting the worst.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Okay, the start list has the track data. They are using thes ame 2.5km Loop hey did in 2017. This one has only 40m of height difference. So they don't go to the top of Burgstal again, but leave out 30m of height diference gain.
Of course, they might still settle for last years Loop due to the weather tomorrow.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

On today's course - an exchange from 2016 in the thread:

So on Eurosport the comms are suggesting ways to shake up Nordic Combined, and one of them suggested decreasing the distance yet further and making it very sprinty, steep uphills, obstacles, jumps and like an XC version of ski cross. Which is precisely the opposite direction to how I was suggesting to change the sport!

This led to me being told about "cross country cross". And that this has been introduced into the Youth Winter Olympics. This is a horrifying, mind-blowingly evil spectacle which will bring about the destruction of not just this but ALL sport. If this is the direction they DO go, it is worse than replacing the Olympic kilo on the track with the execrable pile of BS that is the Olympic BMX. I already find it appalling that they've soiled the Winter Olympics by allowing X Games nonsense like "slopestyle" and the snowboard half-pipe in, but at least snowboarding is kind of about that "extreme sports" type stuff anyway; it is a horrifying thought that they may want to turn cross-country into that as well. Please put my mind at rest.

Agree completely. As if sprints weren't enough. It's ok to have these things at the youth level (up to maybe 15 or 16), and try to keep the sport interesting for the younger generation, but if they try to implement 'ski cross' or something similar with obstacles and sketchy downhills into the senior world cup, olympics, world's, etc, say goodbye to the sport. Maybe we are wrong, but I think that's what'll happen if they try it. Hopefully all the teams say NO thank you and we'll keep our traditional sport. I never understood why things like snowboard or half-pipe of freestyle skiing are part of the olympics. Keep that stuff for the X Games, for the stoners (no offense to anyone) and slackers (again, no offense to anyone).

Did anyone catch the Strandvall incident yesterday? If that's what FIS and the IOC are striving for, good luck with it. Strandvall is the master of causing crashes, fall starts and generally being disrespectful at the races, but this sort of thing happens in tight racing. This isn't the way medals should be decided, and most importantly, nobody wants to see stupid accidents and any sort of injuries.

 

[BullsFan22]

Okay, the start list has the track data. They are using thes ame 2.5km Loop hey did in 2017. This one has only 40m of height difference. So they don't go to the top of Burgstal again, but leave out 30m of height diference gain.
Of course, they might still settle for last years Loop due to the weather tomorrow.

Yeah, saw that as well. That's a shame. Since Oberstdorf hosted the 2005 World's, they've never used the full loops they used in 2005. A lot of times due to lack of snow, other times due to FIS wanting short loops for 'TV.' It's really a pity because those are some very hard courses. The 2.5km course itself isn't easy either, but 5, 7.5...those are tough. I remember during the World's that both the relays and skiathlon races were blown to pieces because the toughness of the course and the front skiers pushing the pace. Now we are stuck with these short loops. Last time they had a 15km classic in Oberstdorf was at the TDS in 2016. The course was just below 2km, but really they had little choice. Barely any snow. Two years ago was better for the skiathlon and handicap pursuit races, but still they used the 2.5km course. The classic portion of the men's skiathlon had quite a few crashes. Not as bad as last season, but still.

Hopefully last year doesn't repeat.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

On today's course - an exchange from 2016 in the thread:

So on Eurosport the comms are suggesting ways to shake up Nordic Combined, and one of them suggested decreasing the distance yet further and making it very sprinty, steep uphills, obstacles, jumps and like an XC version of ski cross. Which is precisely the opposite direction to how I was suggesting to change the sport!

This led to me being told about "cross country cross". And that this has been introduced into the Youth Winter Olympics. This is a horrifying, mind-blowingly evil spectacle which will bring about the destruction of not just this but ALL sport. If this is the direction they DO go, it is worse than replacing the Olympic kilo on the track with the execrable pile of BS that is the Olympic BMX. I already find it appalling that they've soiled the Winter Olympics by allowing X Games nonsense like "slopestyle" and the snowboard half-pipe in, but at least snowboarding is kind of about that "extreme sports" type stuff anyway; it is a horrifying thought that they may want to turn cross-country into that as well. Please put my mind at rest.

Agree completely. As if sprints weren't enough. It's ok to have these things at the youth level (up to maybe 15 or 16), and try to keep the sport interesting for the younger generation, but if they try to implement 'ski cross' or something similar with obstacles and sketchy downhills into the senior world cup, olympics, world's, etc, say goodbye to the sport. Maybe we are wrong, but I think that's what'll happen if they try it. Hopefully all the teams say NO thank you and we'll keep our traditional sport. I never understood why things like snowboard or half-pipe of freestyle skiing are part of the olympics. Keep that stuff for the X Games, for the stoners (no offense to anyone) and slackers (again, no offense to anyone).

Did anyone catch the Strandvall incident yesterday? If that's what FIS and the IOC are striving for, good luck with it. Strandvall is the master of causing crashes, fall starts and generally being disrespectful at the races, but this sort of thing happens in tight racing. This isn't the way medals should be decided, and most importantly, nobody wants to see stupid accidents and any sort of injuries.

Nice.

 

[python]

at half distance digga, is ...gahn, i mean gone at 19 sec behind parma...conditions soft, the teams with good skis are likely to have good skis for men.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well that was the expected horse *** race. Even if it wasn't snowing those Long ass flat sections would have killed any action until the last Loop. Imagie if this had been an individual start, though, would have been an epic battle.

Ustiogov pulling the donkey of the year. Totally grilling himself in a sprint when there was no sprint seconds to gain

 

[python]

bavaria, sometimes i wonder if it's your 1st tds...i am not trying to be negative...

ustiougov, surged from the very depth of the field to distance his gc competitors and/or to earn bonuses. he succeeded in both gaping klaebo by about 5 sec and earning a 5 sec bonus for a total payback for his surge of about 10 seconds. it is very valuable given the gaps of mere seconds after 4 stages.

(unless you are talking about a premature sprint he and iversen engaged in mid race). even then, it could have been a test which is part of racing....

 

[Bavarianrider]

Re:

bavaria, sometimes i wonder if it's your 1st tds...i am not trying to be negative...

ustiougov, surged from the very depth of the field to distance his gc competitors and/or to earn bonuses. he succeeded in both gaping klaebo by about 5 sec and earning a 5 sec bonus for a total payback for his surge of about 10 seconds. it is very valuable given the gaps of mere seconds after 4 stages.

(unless you are talking about a premature sprint he and iversen engaged in mid race). even then, it could have been a test which is part of racing....

Why would he test himself in useless sprint and not compete in those that actualy matter? He clearly struggled after that sprint and wasn't just resting for tactical reasons, but he simply had to rest. His kies were far from perfect either. In the end he mobalized himself in avery impressive Fashion but he clearly left some seconds on the table today.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

bavaria, sometimes i wonder if it's your 1st tds...i am not trying to be negative...

ustiougov, surged from the very depth of the field to distance his gc competitors and/or to earn bonuses. he succeeded in both gaping klaebo by about 5 sec and earning a 5 sec bonus for a total payback for his surge of about 10 seconds. it is very valuable given the gaps of mere seconds after 4 stages.

(unless you are talking about a premature sprint he and iversen engaged in mid race). even then, it could have been a test which is part of racing....

Why would he test himself in useless sprint and not compete in those that actualy matter? He clearly struggled after that sprint and wasn't just resting for tactical reasons, but he simply had to rest. His kies were far from perfect either. In the end he mobalized himself in avery impressive Fashion but he clearly left some seconds on the table today.

again i have to question your understanding of the racing action...when an athlete (skier, cyclists etc) surges in an unexpected manner, far from the finish or a decisive hill/time check - they dont test themselves - they test their competition. it is done in cycling all the time and it is done in skiing too, certainly not as often. the goals vary from seeing who is following and how fast to trying to create a brake away group.

again, watch the actual race. here's a swedish recording, but if you cant open it, i am sure a german or a youtube link will show the same....
https://www.svtplay.se/video/20327382/langdskidor-varldscupen/langdskidor-varldscupen-tour-de-ski-15-km-klassisk-stil-masstart-herrar?start=auto

at 9:00 or so ustiougov starts an acceleration and quickly drops the speed, iverson like the man possessed chased as hard as he could and ....watch this carefully. iversen then quickly passed ustiougov who had been slowing down. then iversen continued to a 3.3 mi time check at full throttle. soon after, ustiuogov winds up his own pace, quickly catches iversen and actually beats him by a whisker. both them stumped on a brake.

to me it was a racing game where iversen got suckered in. both turned out very strong at the end with iversen being the strongest.

the thing which german tv probably missed entirely was that usti broke a pole at about 6mi and THAT was the reason he completely disappeared from the on-screen time checks being almost 10 second in arrears.

that he found energy to surge at the end as he did - from the depth of the peloton - indicates to me he was less than wasted by the little game with iversen.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Apparently Iversen abandoned the Tour (he's not in the Start list for the tomorrow's pursuit). That huge news for both the Tour, but also for the Overall Cup. He's currently second, only 10 points behind Bolshunov, but there are plenty of points left in the Tour, especially in the end of it.

 

[BullsFan22]

The bonus seconds were the following lap, so Ustiugov made a mistake. He wasted energy for nothing. Then halfway his pole was broken. He was in 35th place starting the last lap and fought like a mad man in the last two km. What he should have done is not try to go into the lead on the last downhill before the stadium. Tuck in behind Iversen and De Fabiani and then try to pass in the finish straight. Wasted so much unncessary energy. Tomorrow is supposed to bring really good conditions. Iversen won't race. Klaebo also thought about abandoning but I guess he's staying. I am interested in Krüger's progress. He's 35 seconds behind Bolshunov, 1:06 behind Ustiugov and 1:21 behind Klaebo. There is a possibility of him catching Bolshunov, but the front two are safe. After that it becomes a question of group formations and cooperation. Lot's of things could happen. Bolshunov is really in no man's land. Unless the front two (assuming Ustiugov catches Klaebo) play games or aren't feeling that good, then Bolshunov won't be able to catch them, IMO. Krüger can really motor in skate races and he'll also have Skar with him. Though I don't think Skar will play a big role, maybe a few km's of help, but I don't see him hanging with Krüger.

In the women's race I see Oestberg going for it and trying to hold her lead. 24 seconds is a good margin and it would be a lot to give away, especially with another classic mass start on Saturday where the Russians were so strong. Belorukova has really improved her skating and she's a fighter but she'll still be caught by Diggins and Parmakoski. She only has 15-16 seconds and Diggins is a better skater. I can see those three making some ground. After that it's Sedova. I like her chances to make up ground and contend for the podium on Sunday. She can climb and she always does better in second half of races. The Russians finally have a strong women's team. It's also a very young team. Not to mention that the ones behind them, Istomina, Durkina, Zherebyateva...are even younger...all three are 21! I always wonder if it's too early to bring skiers that young to an intense TDS. Kalla won the tour when she was only 20, and it took her almost two years to get back to that level. After that she raced the tour sparingly and it's paid off, mostly.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Apparently Iversen abandoned the Tour (he's not in the Start list for the tomorrow's pursuit). That huge news for both the Tour, but also for the Overall Cup. He's currently second, only 10 points behind Bolshunov, but there are plenty of points left in the Tour, especially in the end of it.

I don't like it when big names drop out of the tour. If you are sick or injured, that's understandable, but you ought to try and finish it. Obviously everyone will focus on the world's in Seefeld, but I always thought that if you decide to abandon the tour, then why start at all? Yeah you get training and you don't want to expend energy, but it's not fair for the organizers and spectators who want to see good racing and as many top skiers as possible. Plus if you tailored your training schedule towards February and March, you have time to rest and recover. Not many contenders will go to Dresden next weekend. So they have two full weeks after the tour to prepare for either national championships or Otepaa.

I think next season, without the World's or Olympics on the schedule, should make everyone stay for the whole tour, even sprinters who only focus on their discipline.

 

[python]

you're wrong, bullsfan. i posted a link. it is clear who is storming up to a 3.3 km time check.it was Iversen way ahead of ustiougov with still good distance to go to a 3.3 km check. the distance iversen ahead in the recording is hard to judge but iversen is ahead full steam. only after slowing down, a second or two later, ustiougov gave a full throttler chase.

this is beyond argument as the images are unambiguous. ustiougov started the acceleration, and iversen got suckered in. the whole race is a waste of energy.

you also sound naive as the skiers are notorious for dropping out of the tds all the time. regardless of what you want to see or what's good for viewing or what's rational. it's their bodies and they are absolutely in their right to manage their health and human resources. particularly if a chemical dimension is minimized.

the norwegians are more often resorting to the tool as they have the longest tool set to play with. i too dislike the undercutting of the competition, but i am just a fan as opposed to an investor and understand the athlete's personal needs in the world where they are actually rather poorly protected from all sorts of challenges.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Re: Re:

I think next season, without the World's or Olympics on the schedule, should make everyone stay for the whole tour, even sprinters who only focus on their discipline.

It looks like there will be the Tour de Ski in the format as we know it (Lenzerheide, Vaduz, Toblach, Val di Fiemme) and a new second tour by the name Ski Tour 2020. It will run in mid february (Östersund, Are, Storlien-Meraker, Trondheim). It's an event organized by the Swedish and Norwegian ski federations. So my guess is, that those two nations will focus on this tour.

 

[Singer01]

If you drop out this year you cant come next year. Done.

 

[python]

before the pursuit today, i decided - purely for fun - to review the yesterday finish again. my goal was to estimate the end of race strength of the main contenders ...

remember the number - 45:30.3 - the winner's time. 2nd and 3d finished within 2 seconds.

the real actions starts on the last uphill, 1.5 to 2 minutes before the finish and before the pack crossed the last check point -14.4 km.

at 43:00 race time the pack is lead by iversen, larkov and de fabiani double poling behind each other. the action is measured and rhythmic. no signs of anyone sprinting or accelerating. at 43:37 the camera catches ustiougov slightly off the right-most lane. it must have been the start of his acceleration - 1min 55 sec before he finished. a very long, but typical for him 2-minute max acceleration few can match. he ran very much the klaebo style outside the soft, sticky tracks. at 44:27 he crossed the 14.4 km marker in 1st with with de fabiani 2nd, larkov 3d and iversen 4th (at 1.7 sec). The remarkable thing about the surge was that ustiougov had to swing-run all the way in front of his chasers across 5 lanes (6-7 meters) to the left b/c the path to stadium was bending left. that;s when defabiani and iversen seeing ustiogov in front put on their afterburners - almost a minute after ustiougov maxed out.

at 44:55 they show ustiougov descending still 1st, defabiani 2nd and iversen 3d. it is 150-200 meters from the finish. the rest we know. both easily overtook ustiougov, obviously b/c he had no steam left starting the sprint so much earlier.

the interesting action developed behind. klaebo and calle were 9th and 10th at 14.4 km (5.4 sec and 5.8 sec). at the finish though calle was ahead of klaebo in 5th beating klaebo by 2+ seconds. the swedish media of course hyped the little fact.

bolshunov was behind 10.3 sec at 14.4 km to eventually lose 20 sec at the finish. he must have been dead to lose 10 sec in 500 m.

the morale of the analyses: ustiougov made an inhuman effort and survived. calle seems strong for today. klaebo showed a tiny weakness, if any. bolshu imo was exhausted not bode all that great for today.

 

[search]

so, apart from Iversen on the men's side, from the women also Jacobsen (7th), Nilsson (8th) and Hennig (14th) are non-starters today

Edit: Skar (as a late addition to the race) will probably abandon at some point as well, I guess - but he could be useful today to do some donkey work for Krueger first