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Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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I think the champs thus far have been great. Even the sprints, actually. This might go against the grain, but i dont care. Sure I wish the norwegians won less, and Johaug was on perma-vacation, but I guess this is what it is.

Track design has been key, IMHO. As long as the tracks are suitable, ie. comparable to lumpy bike races but in skiing's own terms, even mass start races may be good. I think Seefeld has at least partially succeeded in this. To wit: not too difficult climbs that induce too much caution, but not too flat either.

Mens skiathlon especially was selective and then decided in a short 15-30sec burst of power while the contenders were fatigued. Uneven pacing with peaks and troughs is needed. Niskanen probably had the highest vo2max (allegedly 7 litres per minute in absolute terms) of those who were there at the end, but could not answer when very high neuromuscular power was needed. There is no way someone wins that race Northug style, just wheelsucking, as was the norm some 5-10 years ago. Women's race was like that too, if you abstract Johaug away and look what happened behind her: selective from the gun and then decided in a burst. Johaug also made her initial attack exactly like that: attacked from behind, put in a burst of maybe 45 sec and dropped the others.

More generally, the ability to generate 20-30sec bursts repeatedly and while fatigued seems to have become all the more important in modern xc lately, as mass starts become the norm. The ability to hold a steady pace gives you the ticket to enter the business end of a race but is rarely sufficient in and of itself. According to people working close to the field, this trend has been driven by originally sprint-specific qualities spilling over to distance racing and distance skiers, especially thanks to mass starts. Universal distance skiers have to be very good aerobically, but also need the burst-ability and high top speed in the flats. Neuromuscular power is thus becoming emphasised.

I tend to welcome this development and find it good that more is required from medalists than "pure endurance" - as long as select groups and breakaways still have a chance of succeeding, which depends quite a lot on track design. I used to have a different opinion, but have changed it. One pure TT race is enough for endurance specialists. Maybe make it 20k for both genders.

***
As for today's race the jury will decide whether to put salt on the "red loop" at noon. Finns seem to be in opposition, as this would render the conditions a bit less hard by enhancing glide and hardness of the snow.

Niskanen though has stated he is ready either way, and this I believe. I would be surprised to see him lose, but the race will likely be close. Him and Bolshu both have Rossignols. Waxing and maybe finding the perfect pair of skis will play a role for sure.

I appreciate Niskanen's excellence as a sportsman, but am semi fed up with the Finnish media hyping him as the "ultimate skier" (though failing to mention that he has been dropped like a bad habit when pedal hit the metal in the skiathlon and also leg 3 in team sprint against Iversen's attack...) and hence root for less-of- one-trick-ponies such as Bolshu.

It is a cultural thing and I find the "as long as we win classic TTs for which maybe three people specialise all is good" attitude prevalent in Finland quite symptomatic. Klaebo will walk away with at least two golds, probably three, thanks to his neuromuscular capabilities. Will he be unhappy that some think he is not the "ultimate skier"? I dont think so.

It seems that Finns want Xc to be one way. But it really is the other way, for better or worse.
 
Re:

meat puppet said:
Mens skiathlon especially was selective and then decided in a short 15-30sec burst of power while the contenders were fatigued. Uneven pacing with peaks and troughs is needed. Niskanen probably had the highest vo2max (allegedly 7 litres per minute in absolute terms) of those who were there at the end, but could not answer when very high neuromuscular power was needed. There is no way someone wins that race Northug style, just wheelsucking, as was the norm some 5-10 years ago.

I have noticed indeed that in recent times there have been fewer big group finishes than in the past. In Seefeld's case it was helped by + degrees. Conditions are harder, when it's warm, and groups collapse more easily.

However, I also heavily suspect that groups get broken more easily due to decline in competition in XC skiing. Think of the 2000's. We had 4 strong Germans, 4 Italians, 4 Swedes, Czechs, etc. You could have had at least 20 skiers all going for medals. Try to break that group. Nowadays it's a competition between Norway and Russia and a handful of some others elsewhere. So it's easier to break the group.

Of course all this doesn't apply to women, where competition has been more sparse anyway.
 
Re: Re:

zarnack said:
meat puppet said:
Mens skiathlon especially was selective and then decided in a short 15-30sec burst of power while the contenders were fatigued. Uneven pacing with peaks and troughs is needed. Niskanen probably had the highest vo2max (allegedly 7 litres per minute in absolute terms) of those who were there at the end, but could not answer when very high neuromuscular power was needed. There is no way someone wins that race Northug style, just wheelsucking, as was the norm some 5-10 years ago.

I have noticed indeed that in recent times there have been fewer big group finishes than in the past. In Seefeld's case it was helped by + degrees. Conditions are harder, when it's warm, and groups collapse more easily.

However, I also heavily suspect that groups get broken more easily due to decline in competition in XC skiing. Think of the 2000's. We had 4 strong Germans, 4 Italians, 4 Swedes, Czechs, etc. You could have had at least 20 skiers all going for medals. Try to break that group. Nowadays it's a competition between Norway and Russia and a handful of some others elsewhere. So it's easier to break the group.

Of course all this doesn't apply to women, where competition has been more sparse anyway.
This is a fair point regarding competition and conditions. Yet I think the tracks also count. For instance, men's Vancouver 2010 skiathlon resulted in a late breakaway and reduced group sprint on a fairly easy course whereas the subsequent Holmenkollen race in 2011 no one could for one reason or another. Maybe competition was already lesser then, I dont know.

However, I also tend to think that the fiercer the competition, the more important these short bursts of power become.
 
Re: Re:

MrRoboto said:
meat puppet said:
It seems that Finns want Xc to be one way. But it really is the other way, for better or worse.
That will change once they get a good skier who wins in more of a Northug fashion.
Sure, but that might take a while. My point also being there are other reasons to enjoy sports than tribal ones. :)

Tight race this. Bolshunov did not have it, that much is certain. Bessmertnykh and Sundby clash with Niskanen & Toenseth.
 
So Norway has already equalled the 7 golds they won in XC in Lahti and PyeongChang. And we are just through 8 events out of 12... The domination is just getting more thorough. Congrats to Sundby though. Telling though that his elusive championship title happened in an interval start, and not mass-start.

What's wrong with Bolshunov though? Is he a bit tired due to a busy schedule? Bessmertnykh is a surprise though. But he has had some good rest too before today.
 
Re:

Singer01 said:
Don't see that team beating the Norwegians, Johaug gives them a 30 second cushion. Be nice if it was close though. Either way Karlsson is going home with at least 2 silver's, not bad for a 19 year old.

Yea it's scary to think that although it's only 5 km, Johaug could easily find 30 seconds over that distance!

Sweden competing against Norway relies on someone in Norway's team having a clear off-day, a bit like Jacobsen in Olympic relay. Also it relies on whether Andersson has somewhat recovered and won't drop behind on the first leg.

By the way, what is Norway's order? If Nilsson is in a direct battle against Östberg, I think she would stand a better chance than against Björgen last year. Johaug isn't much of a sprinter.
 
Re:

zarnack said:
So Norway has already equalled the 7 golds they won in XC in Lahti and PyeongChang. And we are just through 8 events out of 12... The domination is just getting more thorough. Congrats to Sundby though. Telling though that his elusive championship title happened in an interval start, and not mass-start.

What's wrong with Bolshunov though? Is he a bit tired due to a busy schedule? Bessmertnykh is a surprise though. But he has had some good rest too before today.

Sundby has been peaking better in the last championships and at least in the Individual race he doesn't have to outsprint anyone. Not my favourite skier but its deserved.

Regarding the russuans, I think that Bolshunov is tired from a very busy schedule. He has been racing almost all World Cup races and its already his fourth race in this championships. Probably didn't adapt well to the very warm conditions too. I really think he shouldn't race the 50km to be fresh in the fight for the World Cup overall.
Bessmertnykh is a classic style specialist so he would always be a contender for this race, especially after getting third in Cogne. However I am puzzled at the choice of Vylezganin over Belov since Belov has always been better than his older teammate at this kind of races.
 
Re: Re:

search said:
zarnack said:
Singer01 said:
By the way, what is Norway's order? If Nilsson is in a direct battle against Östberg, I think she would stand a better chance than against Björgen last year. Johaug isn't much of a sprinter.
probably Weng - Johaug - Jacobsen - Oestberg, but it's not confirmed yet. Could also be Falla 1st

or not ;). Weng - Oestberg - Jacobsen - Johaug is the order, if this article is to be believed

https://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/i/P3VPj7/therese-johaug-blir-norges-ankerkvinne-paa-stafetten

That should make things interesting. Andersson and Karlsson will need to try to open a gap on the classic part, I guess. And that's not impossible
 
Very pleased with today's result. I really think MJS deserved his individual gold. But it's funny with the Russians - when one athlete fails, a new one shows up. Really did not see Bessmertnykh on the podium (or Bolshunov way off the podium) after the race he did in Cogne just over a week ago. But I guess a lot can happen in 10 days.
 
Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Singer01 said:
zarnack said:
Singer01 said:
That was pretty impressive by Johaug in those conditions, she needs to get her wins now because it appears the swedes are definitely coming. The relay could be great.

Relay could be great if all Swedes were on form, but Andersson has clearly suffered due to illness. However, I think in the next championships in 2 years' time Sweden could start the 4x5 relay already as favourites, provided they all remain healthy of course.
I agree, i think in 2 years time Johaug will still be the best female XC skiier on the planet, but i think most of the rest of the top 5 could be Swedes instead of Norwegians.
Unless Weng gets her form back from the last 2 years of being the world No1 and Tour de Ski winner. Kalla, Karlsson, Nillson, Anderson should be a match for anyone in a 4x5 relay.

Anybody seen the start list for tomorrow, assuming conditions are similar who is out early with best chance to benefit?
Has Østberg said that she will retire in 2 years?
How about Haga? She's only the Olympic champion in the 10km chrono, albeit in freestyle. But the 10k will be in skate in the 2021 Worlds too. And Weng will still only be 29, she's had a terrible year but this is out of sync with the rest of her career. It is worth noting that Weng does have a tendency to not get it right at major championships, mind. I hope she can get it back, I like Heidi, but there's a distinct possibility that by the time we get to Oberstdorf she's the third strongest skier called Weng on the Tour...
I was also thinking about Haga, but because I haven't seen her all year, I don't think she can currently be categorized as one of the 5 best distance athletes. But clearly, her top level is very high. Do you know why she has not been in contention this season?
 

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