Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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Feb 20, 2010
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Tandrevold took a few seconds out of E Oeberg at pretty much every split, Interesting.

Can't beleive this Norway team are proving so dominant in the relays having lost their 2 best athletes (and in Olsbu one of the top 3 relay racers since I've been watching, along with Berger and Dahlmeier. Someone who is both fast and reliable, unlke Eckhoff occasionally).

Makes the mixed relays less interesting than I thought they'd be, now Tandrevold and Knotten have stepped up.
Tandrevold realistically is getting to where she looked like she'd get. Physically she's been elite for a long time as long as she could stay healthy, the problems with her have more been psychological and/or tactical.

Knotten's improvement at this stage of her career is jaw-dropping and I think it's going to be difficult to discuss without needing to relocate the conversation to another part of the forum.
 
Apr 10, 2019
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Very interesting, I'm also a skater coming from running and cycling background. I had spent a lot of time becoming a strong double poler and was very solid in V2(what we call it in the US) but was having issues with V1 on steep hills. It wasn't until I did a video session with a really good coach that I could see what was going on (hips not high enough, which in turn kills shin/ankle angles), and things changed overnight. Physics combined with physiology can be strange; what works for one might be disastrous for another even though the basics are similar.
When it gets really steep you have to shift your weight a bit back into your heels, otherwise you push the front of your skis down against the slopes and won't glide.
Overall I've found "try to keep your hips high/towards the front" as the best overall uphill v1 clue for me.
But yeah, different physiologies seem to be a really important thing when it comes to uphill v1.
 
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Mar 16, 2021
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Really pleased for Weng, hope she can build her form towards the TdS, she's historically easily the 2nd best on the final climb.
 
Jul 10, 2009
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Really pleased for Weng, hope she can build her form towards the TdS, she's historically easily the 2nd best on the final climb.
Totally agree! She's taken a little stick here in the past for being an oddball (that's how I read it anyway) but to me she's likeable enough and definitely deserves her share of luck after the last seasons. It would be great to see her firing on all cylinders at TdS.

Edit: Heidi vs Sophia vs Delphine vs Healthy Frida vs Ebba vs the leaner and meaner Diggin's on the Alpe could be an historic battle! Right now it looks like Claudel's to lose but it's still a month out; a lot can happen.
 
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Jun 22, 2010
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Johan Olsson had a good session on Swedish TV about Diggins last weekend, were he talked about how there is a big difference between technique and style.

Diggins have a very messy style, but her tecnique isn't bad at all in skating. If you chopped all the female skiers in half (haha) and only looked at their movement from the waist an down I'd say Diggins is perhaps the best. Her hips are stable and her angles are overall very good, meaning she gets the power down in the right direction. The upper body movement isn't that great, but not that bad either, but her head movememt makes everything look extremely chaotic. But the head movement is perhaps the one movement during a race that have the smallest affect of your performance.

Petter Northug was also a skier where the technique were better than his style in skating, even if he had different issues than Diggins. Both had some kind of strange looking head movement, but where Diggins is executing really good with the legs, Northug was executing really well with the upper body.

I honestly think Diggins technique in skating is a lot better than many of her biggest opponents.

Nepryaeva was asked about Halvard Hanevold (weird) and technique. And she specifically mentioned Diggins. “Diggins is an example, you watch her and think, wow this person is moving all over the place, looking very unsteady but she’s still skiing fast.” Something like that.

Her technique is awful, her capacity and personality are what helps her overcome that.
 
Feb 20, 2010
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Tora Berger is the best example of somebody who skis awfully but was still fast without going into the Mühlegg realm. She was splashing snow around in jump-skate like a toddler in a paddling pool, exacerbated by skiing alongside the likes of Domracheva and, you know, being Lars' brother, which makes you wonder how the hell they coexisted as kids. Lars was so carefree and Tora so serious; Lars was so elegant on skis and Tora was so all over the place.

Benedikt Doll is a good comparison of what we're talking about for Diggins because his skiing other than his absurd head movements is not actually all that bad, but he looks like a goddamned pigeon out there and it's just way too hard to overlook.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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I think you’re very wrong about this.

She’s improved since her early WC years, and especially her Minnesota years (which tells you something), but her technique is still not good.

The skier with the best technique on the US women’s team is Julia Kern. There’s no question about that.

The thing about the USST, I know this for a fact, I’ve been around them, went to races with them, they don’t work on technique with their skiers, they leave that to the clubs which the national team skiers represent.

Diggins is from Minnesota, but she’s represented Stratton Mountain School for many years now. Brennan is from Park City, but she represents Alaska Pacific University, after graduating from Dartmouth college. Kern also represents Stratton, and she studied at Dartmouth, but she never raced on the college circuit. I don’t know if she’s graduated or still has some classes left.

But yes, saying Diggins’s technique is good is just plain wrong, for starters, there is a lot of upper body movement, wasted movement.
 
Aug 31, 2019
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But yes, saying Diggins’s technique is good is just plain wrong, for starters, there is a lot of upper body movement, wasted movement.
Diggins is much closer to a good technique than an awful technique.

I explained my reasoning behind it on the previous page. There is a difference between technique and style. Her style isn’t elegant, but her overall skating technique is pretty good (I’m talking about the technique on normal/good days, she’s not great at keeping the technique on bad days, when she can’t keep the core stable and the upper body comes to far forward. she’s probably one of the women that drops technique/movement the most on bad days together with Frida and Kerttu) and her footwork seems excellent.

Compare her to the opponents and there are very few of the girls that are better. Parmakoski and Flugstad Østberg are the obvious names that spring to mind, the others have also big flaws. Frida is a bit stiff and not finishing each step as good as she could, she’s not fulfilling the potential of the extra centimeters she got. Also one of the few that’s collapsing technically more than Diggins on a bad day. Kalvå is pretty similar to Diggins, good core and footwork but the way she’s using her arms has to be in effective. Victoria Carl has a bit of a strange rotation in hip/upper body. She’s a female Holund. Claudel is elegant, but she’s lacking a lot of strength and she’s seems to be a bit to high up with the upper body meaning she doesn’t get enough power down with the poles. That’s definitively also a technique issue and not only a power issue. Kerttu and Brennan (and girls like Stadlober, Laukli and Bergane) I don’t need to explain. Hennig is my favorite technically in classic, but in skating she has big flaws even if she looks elegant especially in what we call double dance (is that V2 in US?).

I’d place Ilar, all three Weng, Andersson in the more or less the same bracket as Diggins. Also the sprinters Ribom and Sundling. All of them have some issues, but in general they are good at getting the power the right direction. I think it looks like Dolci also have a very good base technique in skating, but as she’s not that often been in the TV screen before today I haven’t thought a lot about her movement yet. She looks stable and able to put more power down than Claudel for example.

Watching clips of Diggins skating from the front you can see that her shoulders doesn’t move that much (you want some movement as you want to have the weight moved over from side to side in each kick), so I think the upper body movement you talk about is over exaggerated and a result of the stupid head movement.

The US skiers seems far behind for example the Norwegians when it comes to technical work and focus on this area. Rosie Brennan literally said on the Devon Kershaw podcast that she doesn’t do specific training for the technique. That is visible. I hope the younger athletes have a more open mind to this specific training. Diggins enormous step forward in classic technique this year indicates that she’s working on it more than Brennan at least.

In general my take is that the best men have better technique than the women in skating, probably because they are much stronger, both in the core and in the upper body. If you compare the girls to the likes of Røthe and Kruger most of them looks pretty bad. In the context of women skiing Diggins is not looking to be at any bigger technical disadvantage at all.
 
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Aug 31, 2019
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Then I think Diggins biggest advantage over girls like Ebba and Frida is that Diggins have learned the importance of creating speed over the hill tops, while those Swedes are more old school in their mindset with “I’m gonna go as fast as I can up every hill”. (I think Diggins was like this when she was their age also, so there is hope they will learn)

There have been a lot of work with gps-analyses the last 10 years or so regarding this, where I think the Norwegians have been on the front foot, but Diggins is obviously doing this very well and is possibly the best on the women’s side to do this. Both in Gällivare and Östersund there have been plenty of footage from these hill tops on the TV screen where the difference have been pretty visible (of course today the Swedes seemed to be hindered by the skis and Frida had been sick so she wasn’t near her best).
 
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Mar 16, 2021
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Having very little knowledge about the technical aspect, what ive taken from this thread os that it appears having a good technique is almost redundant. Since there seems to be no correlation between technique and performance.
 
Aug 31, 2019
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Since there seems to be no correlation between technique and performance.
No, there is no correlation between style and performance.

Technique is still relevant, but the physical aspect is of course the most important. If you take the athlete with the best capacity (say Krueger) and give him the skating technique of someone like Maloney Westgaard, it’s not like Kruger suddenly would be 2 minutes slower in a 10k. Maybe he’d be half a minute slower and would be fighting in range 6-10 instead of the top 3. And same if you give Maloney Westgaard the capacity of Kruger, he would be much better but be would still not win any skating races.
 
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Feb 20, 2010
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Having very little knowledge about the technical aspect, what ive taken from this thread os that it appears having a good technique is almost redundant. Since there seems to be no correlation between technique and performance.
It's the same as in cycling. Good technique is better for efficiency, but some people have bigger engines than others and so don't need optimal technique to still be competitive. This has become increasingly the case as the fields have been eroded by the decline of interest of a number of nations meaning the depth has grown less.

And in Mühlegg you have an equivalent of Chris Froome, somebody whose technique was both inefficient and ugly to watch but who had such a surfeit of power that he just splashed away from people regardless. However, it was very hard for fans to point at somebody skiing like that and say "yes, that truly is the best skier in the world".
 
Jun 22, 2010
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To be fair to Mühlegg, he was a world junior champion and was one of the strongest skate skiers before moving to Spain and going nuclear. He had the talent, but had a hard time getting on the podium. Probably had enough at one point and started doing what any top skier was doing at the time.

Froome never had a junior career like that and he was an also ran before moving to Postal, I mean Sky.
 
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Back when Muhlegg was a junior more or less everyone had bad skating technique so he probably wasn’t at any bigger disadvantage then.

The big revolution in skate technique happened after Alsgaards win at Lillehammer 94, but not everyone managed to take big step technically. Muhlegg and Botvinov are two guy that sticks out, both of them around at the early 90s and both of them very successful at the early 2000s with horrible style and not great technique compared to guys like Bjørndalen.

But you are right that Muhlegg with two golds from Word Juniors was a guy with a whole different junior career as Froomedawg.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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Back when Muhlegg was a junior more or less everyone had bad skating technique so he probably wasn’t at any bigger disadvantage then.

The big revolution in skate technique happened after Alsgaards win at Lillehammer 94, but not everyone managed to take big step technically. Muhlegg and Botvinov are two guy that sticks out, both of them around at the early 90s and both of them very successful at the early 2000s with horrible style and not great technique compared to guys like Bjørndalen.

But you are right that Muhlegg with two golds from Word Juniors was a guy with a whole different junior career as Froomedawg.

Calling Botvinov and Mühlegg with horribly styles but calling Diggins with great technique. Yeah, alright. Neither of those two guys had great technique, but neither does Diggins.
 
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Calling Botvinov and Mühlegg with horribly styles but calling Diggins with great technique. Yeah, alright. Neither of those two guys had great technique, but neither does Diggins.
You don’t seem to agree that there is a difference between style and technique.

Botvinov and Muhlegg had horrible style and also pretty bad technique.
Diggins have bad style, but pretty good technique.
 
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Muhlegg and Botvinov are two guy that sticks out, both of them around at the early 90s and both of them very successful at the early 2000s with horrible style and not great technique compared to guys like Bjørndalen.

A bit of a tangent, but watching Bjørndalen on skis was such a delight. Sometimes he hit what he shot at, too.
 
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A bit of a tangent, but watching Bjørndalen on skis was such a delight. Sometimes he hit what he shot at, too.
I’m lucky and was able to ski 2 km or so just behind him during a training at Lillehammer many years ago. His movement looked even more elegant in real life.

(Frode Andresen was my favorite of the Norwegian biathletes, but he wasn’t great at the shooting range. I’m still pissed the cross country team didn’t select him for the 50 km in Val di Fiemme in 2003)
 
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I’m lucky and was able to ski 2 km or so just behind him during a training at Lillehammer many years ago. His movement looked even more elegant in real life.

That sounds like an amazing experience! I never saw him race in person, but I wish I had.

(Frode Andresen was my favorite of the Norwegian biathletes, but he wasn’t great at the shooting range. I’m still pissed the cross country team didn’t select him for the 50 km in Val di Fiemme in 2003)

Another beautiful skier, though heartbreaking to watch at the range, sometimes.

Pity that he and OEB were not selected for more cross-country races. I agree that Andresen would have been great in the 50 km in Val di Fiemme 2003, still don't understand why he wasn't chosen.
 
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Pity that he and OEB were not selected for more cross-country races. I agree that Andresen would have been great in the 50 km in Val di Fiemme 2003, still don't understand why he wasn't chosen.
If i remember correctly there was a limit from FIS of athletes you could chose, and Norway had to many specialists in the rooster. So a guy like Tore Bjonviken was selected instead and he didn’t make top 40 in the 15 km… And in the 50 km Norway fielded a sprinter like Bjerkeli and classic specialist Estil and Skjeldal was the best in 24th (Alsgaard was the big hope, but he was mentally tired and not 100% healthy and didn’t start).
Ideally both Andresen and Lars Berger should’ve been selected for this race, they went 1-2 in the 30 km at Norwegian Champs some weeks before that WC.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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Alsgård was in West Yellowstone two Novembers in a row, 2003 and 2004. Sponsored of course by Madshus. He retired after the 2003 season. Was only 31 at the time of retirement. In terms of world cups, Dæhlie retired at essentially the same age, after the 1999 season.