Of Doping, and Hanging onto Cars

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Jul 3, 2011
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Tyler'sTwin said:
You're just jealous of Tommy V. :rolleyes:
Arguments against Voecklar are at least substantiated with comparing times from previous tours etc - all sides are given a fair hearing.

Yet what times from Cav have been compared? Not a single detractor in this thread has produced any sourced numbers to substantiate their claims.
 
stephens said:
I guess there is cheating, and then there is cheating.

Is Cavendish (allegedly) hanging on to a car worse than Kolobnev doping?
Is Maradona's hand of god goal worse than footballers using epo?
Is Marquerito's plaster boxing gloves worse than Mosley's (balco) steroids?

...
I guess there is "towing", and then there is "towing".;)
 
Granville57 said:
Maybe I wasn't clear. I was referring to the rumor (my word) of Cav actually taking a tow. I don't know if Tyler saw that first hand or not, but the fact that he was so upset seems to imply that he had more to go on than just his own assumptions. Maybe someone in one of the Garmin cars confirmed? That's what I was trying to express.
Understood. No comment. Thanks.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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131313 said:
So they're all doing it...

I'm sorry, how is this a ridiculous comparison, and how is the language to defend it any different? I'm just not seeing it.

Oh well, at least Rojas agrees with me: “We want a clean sport, not only in the fight against doping, but also about other things. We asked for a television camera to follow Cavendish in the race."

No one, and certainly not me, is saying that Cav should be 'thrown out of the race', just like I don't think someone should be tossed out just for suspicion of doping. What I am saying is that the organizers should actually care about the rules, and make an attempt to enforce them for all riders, even the big names. It's no different than doping, and the excuses are no different. The more excuses pile up, just like the last one, the more it reinforces my point.
Of course the "language to defend" is going to sound the same - all denials sound the same.

It is for this very reason that people often ignore the denial and rely on other information to form an opinion.

Also, to the blue - you have repeated this a few times so it should be pointed out that it is the comms & UCI who enforce the rules, not the organizers.
 
May 23, 2011
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samerics said:
I take it proof is on offer?
The OP is right. Your arguments sound exactly like the doping apologists. The defense boils down to one of the old standbys:

1) Never tested positive.
2) If a rider is not caught then it is not doping.
3) If he was doping then he surely would have been caught.

Cav was blatantly cheating in the Tour of California. Does anyone think that he would not do the same in other races?
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Also, to the blue - you have repeated this a few times so it should be pointed out that it is the comms & UCI who enforce the rules, not the organizers.
I have repeated it, and it hasn't been by accident...

My general impression is that the bigger the race, the less this distinction is true.
 
May 17, 2011
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I don't doubt Cavendish has gotten some extra help. But I don't think its blatant. Its probably more like getting a "power bottle". The guy in the team car hands off a bottle and then presses the accelerator for a second or two. When I watch video of guys getting passed bottles and other stuff, they do seem to hang on for a bit too long then I would think is necessary. I think anything blatant would be caught on video by now.

And Cavendish is no stranger to grabbing on to the team car, in the Tour of California, he was relegated for doing so:

http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/Archives/2008-archive/stages/stage6.html

"Cavendish was penalized 20 seconds after officials said the High Road rider grabbed onto the side of a team car while trying to catch back on to the peloton."
 
Jul 25, 2009
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I don't think Farrar is changing his tune; he is just being noncommittal because he has no proof. The lack of proof means he needs to slide away from his accusation or he will be unjustly branded a sore looser.

Cavendish's non-denial doesn't impress me at all. I would like to watch a race where the guy who wins on the Champs actually pedals to Paris. If Cav can't do that, he should stick to opening stages and shyt small races. There's not enough proof to kick him out of the tour, but in my mind, his green jersey will always have a stain on it.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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You did it! Criticised for denying and also criticised for not denying! And all in the same thread! Good job.
 
May 26, 2009
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Jun 16, 2009
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131313 said:
He's never tested positive...

Sorry, it all sounds the same to me. All we have it Graeme Brown's work that he was in his group, then magically put 30 minutes into him on the climb. And some time splits from some forum members on the internet. And a cellphone pic.

I like Cav's credibility. You're right, I take it back.
oh god - Cav vs Graeme Brown? Yeah I can see Graeme being honest about his own lack of strength.... He always has been in the past - right? :D
 
Jul 2, 2009
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parity said:
And Cavendish is no stranger to grabbing on to the team car, in the Tour of California, he was relegated for doing so:

http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/Archives/2008-archive/stages/stage6.html

"Cavendish was penalized 20 seconds after officials said the High Road rider grabbed onto the side of a team car while trying to catch back on to the peloton."
That wasn't up a climb though. It was after he crashed with 8km to go on a flat stage, getting his bike fixed (legitimately? who knows?) while on the move - the sort of thing we see every day,but actually against the rules. If he hadn't then won the stage, they would probably have ignored it.
 
Mar 15, 2009
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parity said:
I don't doubt Cavendish has gotten some extra help. But I don't think its blatant. Its probably more like getting a "power bottle". The guy in the team car hands off a bottle and then presses the accelerator for a second or two. When I watch video of guys getting passed bottles and other stuff, they do seem to hang on for a bit too long then I would think is necessary. I think anything blatant would be caught on video by now.

And Cavendish is no stranger to grabbing on to the team car, in the Tour of California, he was relegated for doing so:

http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/Archives/2008-archive/stages/stage6.html

"Cavendish was penalized 20 seconds after officials said the High Road rider grabbed onto the side of a team car while trying to catch back on to the peloton."
Exactly.

Good point.

But wait, where are the photos?!?!
Can you prove it?!?!
There is a commissaire permanently embedded in his rear wheel!!!!
 
May 17, 2011
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Mambo95 said:
That wasn't up a climb though. It was after he crashed with 8km to go on a flat stage, getting his bike fixed (legitimately? who knows?) while on the move - the sort of thing we see every day,but actually against the rules. If he hadn't then won the stage, they would probably have ignored it.
Regardless if it was flat or on a climb, it shows that if Cavendish has something on the line, winning a stage or making a time cut, he's not above breaking the rules.
 
Jan 19, 2011
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
It is easy to be the best when you are getting an illegal tow through the middle of the route while the other sprinters are busting their humps actually riding their bikes.
yeah, thats right he does it all the time, every race in fact.

Farrar should try it, maybe a peice of string with a cork. Oh no, that wouldn't work 'cause his mouth is open complaining again.

Since he's such a righteous law abiding lad I know I won't be seeing any sticky fingers on collecting bidons, or getting tows from team cars after a mechanical or puncture, he will of course be on the opposite side of the road.:rolleyes:
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Apollonius said:
Arguments against Voecklar are at least substantiated with comparing times from previous tours etc - all sides are given a fair hearing.

Yet what times from Cav have been compared? Not a single detractor in this thread has produced any sourced numbers to substantiate their claims.
The evidence against Cavendish is analogous to a rider being accused of doping by several of his peers and having a drug ban in the past.
 
On the subject of "hanging on to the car," the "sticky water bottle" is one of the revered traditions on the European tour. So much so, many European bicycle shops sell bespoke water bottles for that very purpose. The come in Continental, Clement, Mastik'One and Pana cement. They formerly also were sold in 3M Fast Tack but too many riders using them found themselves unable to "disengage" from the team car.
 
May 25, 2010
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
The OP is right. Your arguments sound exactly like the doping apologists. The defense boils down to one of the old standbys:

1) Never tested positive.
2) If a rider is not caught then it is not doping.
3) If he was doping then he surely would have been caught.

Cav was blatantly cheating in the Tour of California. Does anyone think that he would not do the same in other races?
My arguments?? This is my first contribution to this thread :D. Sounds like it's you with the agenda :rolleyes:

Cavendish is not Armstrong, get over it. Mountains, molehills and unsubstantiated slurs spring to mind.... If you'll pardon the pun.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
The guy rode one of the Giro climbs faster than Contador. I mean, I guess anything is possible. And there's no proof...

guys stop hanging onto cars when the TV cameras come by, and things are much more broken up that people realize. The team cars know where the cameras are, so it's really not that hard to make sure you don't get caught. Easier than passing a doping test. And similar, in my mind.
13, thanks for the insight.

:thumbsu: to you

or depending on one's perspective, :thumbsd: to you. Or thumbsdu to those who should be :dq'ed:

good to get the insight from a pro, thanks for availing me (can I say us?) of your opinion and insight.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Ragerod said:
Clearly you've seen an extended version because I've only seen this and it's mentioned once before the interviewer moves onto discussing the sprint. Although I would like you to point me in the direction of that interview.



Unlike yourself, the cycling press need evidence before they can report 'cheating activities' because they can be sued for defamation of character which leads to settlement agreements and damages the integrity of the publisher. Hence it's reported as Ventoso says.. or Landis claims..

It's not unreasonable to ask for proof and to presume someone is innocent without evidence and the accusations by Movistar riders and a comment by Farrar isn't evidence.



My assumption would be that Farrar doesn't know exactly when they got back to the grupetto because it was fairly big and he was probably focusing on his own efforts only to notice Cavendish half way up.



I saw the photos at the time and if I remember correctly Cavendish wasn't in them yet everyone was angry about Cavendish cheating and not about anyone else. There's enough circumstantial evidence to convince me that he got help up Mt Etna but in this instance there is not.
a comment by Farrar is actually evidence. Called witness testimony. May not see a car pul, but it does put the logistics into clarity, cos the commissaires know cycling.

If a non-climber, gets dropped from the grupetto, 70 out, they wont get back if there are other HC or Cat 1 cols. Unless, it is 2km from a summit, and u are il Falco or Sam Sanchez
 
Mar 13, 2009
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stephens said:
I guess there is cheating, and then there is cheating.

Is Cavendish (allegedly) hanging on to a car worse than Kolobnev doping?
Is Maradona's hand of god goal worse than footballers using epo?
Is Marquerito's plaster boxing gloves worse than Mosley's (balco) steroids?
need to add

Is Frodo allegedly getting a pull, and allegedly on all known gear under sun known to Max Sciandri, worse than Ricco getting caught on gear and doping?

not getting caught on PEDs and pulls, < getting caught on PEDs.

Frodo allegations < Riccy Riccio +tests.
 
Mar 25, 2011
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An average 0f 715,000 fans a stage not to mention the photographers and other media and there isn't one photo of Cav taking a tow?
 

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