Of Doping, and Hanging onto Cars

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Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
He's never tested positive...

Sorry, it all sounds the same to me. All we have it Graeme Brown's work that he was in his group, then magically put 30 minutes into him on the climb. And some time splits from some forum members on the internet. And a cellphone pic.

I, We, We, we like Cav's credibility. You're right, I take it back.
corrected it for you 13.

The term his highness used, was the royal "we".

We like our credibility. We also like Cav's credibity.

We like cycling's credibilty.

We like the UCI's credibility.

We like the word credibility. The word credibility, and proof, gives us credibility. We bow down before Edward Bernays. We like italics. Italics gives us credibility.
 
patterson_hood said:
An average 0f 715,000 fans a stage not to mention the photographers and other media and there isn't one photo of Cav taking a tow?
there are quite a few stretches throughout each stage where there is no one in sight.

watch a stage. you might learn something :rolleyes:
 
Jul 29, 2009
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I thought the main point was that Cav is too important to get busted but if the ToC busted him for an illegal tow that kind of blows that argument out if the water.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Apollonius said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same old story from the Cav haters. It's nothing but jealousy. You hear it here, you hear it in the peleton from lesser sprinters (Rojas, Farrar) - just accept he's the best and get on with it.

Nothing to stop the other teams from creating a team based around one elite rider, nothing to stop them using a specialised lead out train -but they wont because they don't have sprinters good enough to justify it so they just whine and moan about it instead.
re: trains
just want to say, in about 2008 Driedaagse Van de Panne, Cav did on of the most incredible solo sprints thru traffic, like some of Mcewen's.

And the 2009 San Remo win, was perhaps the best ever sprint win I have seen.

Frodo is brilliant. He does not need a train.

But this is different.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Of course the "language to defend" is going to sound the same - all denials sound the same.

It is for this very reason that people often ignore the denial and rely on other information to form an opinion.

Also, to the blue - you have repeated this a few times so it should be pointed out that it is the comms & UCI who enforce the rules, not the organizers.
the space inbetween commissaires and the UCI is not the symbol &.

there resides an unsaid dynamic in this position. Politics is the noun. Politics is also the verb that exists in practice.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
I have repeated it, and it hasn't been by accident...

My general impression is that the bigger the race, the less this distinction is true.
ahhh, and here is the explanation from 13.
 
Feb 28, 2010
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If the rules are going to be enforced fairly and uniformally surely it means no more sticky bottles, no more using the convoy to get back after a crash or when bringing bottles up, and no more hanging on to cars for spurious techical assistance? I can't remember how many `tows' Landis took when picking up yet another bottle on his now infamous ride .
 
Mar 6, 2011
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I was just wondering what people thought of using the cars for drifting to a blatant degree ie Garzelli at the Giro or Rein earlier at the Tour is as bad as towing. They seemed to get a fairly easy ride from the commentators both times.
 
Mar 6, 2011
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I now its unlikely but is it really impossible that Cav knew he was going to struggle and instead of letting himself get to far into the red rode his own ace and gained time in the descent and got pulled back to the grupetto on to the large flat section by his team.
 
Feb 22, 2011
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Midnightfright said:
I now its unlikely but is it really impossible that Cav knew he was going to struggle and instead of letting himself get to far into the red rode his own ace and gained time in the descent and got pulled back to the grupetto on to the large flat section by his team.
Is it possible to imagine people walking on the moon? Sure, but that would be hard. Much harder than filming the whole thing on a soundstage and covering up the evidence for 40-plus years.
 
Mar 25, 2011
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thirteen said:
there are quite a few stretches throughout each stage where there is no one in sight.

watch a stage. you might learn something :rolleyes:
Yet according to the accusers here people have seen him. Are you saying not one of those people has a camera of any sort?

:rolleyes:

And I watch as much as I can, some of us have a job though.

Why are people so desparate to prove that Cav isn't the best bunch sprinter ever? Clasping on to every little hope and silly story as if it'll suddenly prove eveything he's achieved is made up. It's pretty pathetic really. You may not like his attitude but 80% of the time he's right. To be honest I think every rider is very similar in their attitude, just most of them are probably given media training.
 
May 23, 2011
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patterson_hood said:
Yet according to the accusers here people have seen him. Are you saying not one of those people has a camera of any sort?
A photo snapped as the riders whiz by proves nothing. Riders get sticky bottles. They may touch the car while talking to the DS. They briefly motorpace. It is a matter of degree. It could easilty be explained away.

patterson_hood said:
Why are people so desparate to prove that Cav isn't the best bunch sprinter ever? Clasping on to every little hope and silly story as if it'll suddenly prove eveything he's achieved is made up. It's pretty pathetic really.
Why are people so desperate to excuse Cav's cheating? He has been caught before. The other riders repeatedly point it out. Cav is no different than Ricco. The two just chose different methods to cheat. Defending such a sad sack is pathetic really.
 
Two things:
1) What you are missing, that not only is there no evidence against Cavendish, the witness statements aren't especially credible either since they are made by people who have a stake in the game themselves and they aren't made under an oath of any kind. Floyd Landis' comments for example imo are so powerful because he hasn't got anything to gain from making them and if its lies he would have a lot to lose (prison!). Ventoso, Rojas, Farrar, they all compete against Cavendish right now. Why should I believe them without a shred of evidence?

2) Doping simply is a worse offense than holding onto a car. Cheating =/= cheating. You don't get a 2-year-ban for getting towed even if it's a blatant, very obvious case.
 
Mar 25, 2011
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
A photo snapped as the riders whiz by proves nothing. Riders get sticky bottles. They may touch the car while talking to the DS. They briefly motorpace. It is a matter of degree. It could easilty be explained away.



Why are people so desperate to excuse Cav's cheating? He has been caught before. The other riders repeatedly point it out. Cav is no different than Ricco. The two just chose different methods to cheat. Defending such a sad sack is pathetic really.
I'm not defending him, I'm asking for proof. There isn't any is there? If there is please show it. As I said before habeus corpus seems appropriate.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
A photo snapped as the riders whiz by proves nothing.
Actually a photo of Cav holding on to a car (which is what he is accused of doing) would prove everything.

Damiano Machiavelli said:
Riders get sticky bottles. They may touch the car while talking to the DS. They briefly motorpace. It is a matter of degree. It could easilty be explained away.
See what i highlighted there - the S, plural.

Why is Cav the only one being singled out?

Damiano Machiavelli said:
Why are people so desperate to excuse Cav's cheating? He has been caught before. The other riders repeatedly point it out. Cav is no different than Ricco. The two just chose different methods to cheat. Defending such a sad sack is pathetic really.
If he is cheating then punish him accordingly - but do far the accusers are his rivals, who aren't even riding near him.

To the blue - he got caught drafting his team car, and rightly was punished - what he is being accused of here is different.
 
May 23, 2011
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Dr. Maserati said:
Actually a photo of Cav holding on to a car (which is what he is accused of doing) would prove everything.
A photo shows one instant in time. It does not show how long he was getting illegal help. It does not show if his teammates pulled him off and on during a climb. It does not show if he spent more than ten seconds drafting a car.

I trust that the other riders know a lot more about what is going on than a fan at one spot on the side of the road, and they have repeatedly called him out.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
A photo shows one instant in time.
An instant of time would be better than what you have now - nothing.
Damiano Machiavelli said:
It does not show how long he was getting illegal help. It does not show if his teammates pulled him off and on during a climb. It does not show if he spent more than ten seconds drafting a car.
If this (non-existent) photo was Cav being handed a bidon, then it would not say much - however if it showed Cav holding on to a car then it would prove what he is being accused of.

Damiano Machiavelli said:
I trust that the other riders know a lot more about what is going on than a fan at one spot on the side of the road, and they have repeatedly called him out.
You are "trusting" riders (his rivals) who are not even in the same group?
 
May 23, 2011
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Dr. Maserati said:
An instant of time would be better than what you have now - nothing.
I have the other pros telling us what is going on as well as Cav getting caught before, which is a hell of a lot more than what you have.

I trust that the other riders know exactly what is going on.
 
They are not objective, especially with the adrenaline of the moment still racing through their veins like Farrar yesterday. Make them say the same thing in court under threat of perjury, then I might be inclined to believe them.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
I have the other pros telling us what is going on
....even though they are not in the same group.

Damiano Machiavelli said:
as well as Cav getting caught before,
for slipstreaming after a crash.

Damiano Machiavelli said:
which is a hell of a lot more than what you have.
I can post a picture of Cav not hanging on to a car if you like.

Damiano Machiavelli said:
I trust that the other riders know exactly what is going on.
Yes, Pro riders are always honest and to be believed.
 

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