Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[DirtyWorks]

Is there a chance that he ate contaminated meat that led to this result? Yes.

No. There is no reasonable chance. This point must be repeated until all the pretenders stop using it. It's equivalent to the Tyler Hamilton vanishing twin doping explanation. We agree that the Clen didn't get there because he ate something, but the way you phrased it gives the pretenders room to believe the meat supply is a remotely possible explanation.

Some of the comments suggest that the UCI's goals are the same as WADA's. They are not. Contador losing the appeal would be a major failure for the UCI. The UCI wants the RFEC decision to stand so Pat can say, "Well, we tried... Sigh.... " and ASO gets one of their stars cleared of doping allegations. A failed appeal preserves the appearance of an anti-doping program and satisfies ASO and IOC.

Contador's blood values are damning too. Does anyone know if they were introduced?

Training camps being arranged in Israel. Huh. The IOC/UCI is very good at this kind of distanced influence, so it is reasonable to assume CAS was bought. After all, Pat didn't get his Tour de China because China is a hotbed of competitive cycling. It's pay to play in China.

 

[sniper]

I guess Contador left out the part about Riis bribing Da Joos with a training camp in Israel. Aside from that everything was confirmed.

There is no proof of AC bribing anybody, but there is no reason to dismiss it as conspiracy theory either.
I'm a bit surprised about the ease with which some posters reject the possibility of (some sort of) a bribe in this particular case.
The possibility of LA bribing the UCI used to be rejected with the same conviction. Now we know better.

We should learn from history.
Lesson 1: bribes come in different shapes.
Lesson 2: nobody's "not for sale".

again, no proof whatsoever, but just saying it aint no conspiracy theory either, and the possibility of a bribe should at the very least be considered, at least on a critical forum such as this one.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

There is no proof of AC bribing anybody, but there is no reason to dismiss it as conspiracy theory either.
I'm a bit surprised about the ease with which some posters reject the possibility of (some sort of) a bribe in this particular case.

The reason we can dismiss it is the source, Becca.
What he knows about ethics could be written legibly on the back of a stamp.

The possibility of LA bribing the UCI used to be rejected with the same conviction. Now we know better.

Not by anyone here except some LA apologists.

We should learn from history.
Lesson 1: bribes come in different shapes.
Lesson 2: nobody's "not for sale".

No. 3 - There has to b a benefit. Now if it shown that Alberto and the boys were not building a cycling school but dry walling Baraks new mansion then we might have something.

again, no proof whatsoever, but just saying it aint no conspiracy theory either, and the possibility of a bribe should at the very least be considered, at least on a critical forum such as this one.

There is also the possibility that Barak is a robot.

 

[BroDeal]

There is no proof of AC bribing anybody, but there is no reason to dismiss it as conspiracy theory either.
I'm a bit surprised about the ease with which some posters reject the possibility of (some sort of) a bribe in this particular case.
The possibility of LA bribing the UCI used to be rejected with the same conviction. Now we know better.

We should learn from history.
Lesson 1: bribes come in different shapes.
Lesson 2: nobody's "not for sale".

again, no proof whatsoever, but just saying it aint no conspiracy theory either, and the possibility of a bribe should at the very least be considered, at least on a critical forum such as this one.

The possibility of Armstrong bribing the UCI came from Silvia Schenk (sp?) saying that Armstrong had given a large sum of money to the UCI and it had not been accounted for plus Armstrong's deposition in the SCA arbitration where he admitted to giving the UCI money but could not recall how much nor how many times he had given. The possibility of Riis bribing CAS comes from a rival team owner's mussings with no evidence and one crackpot on the CN forums.

 

[The Hitch]

Lesson 2: nobody's "not for sale".

Ever heard of Giovanni Falcone?

 

[sniper]

Ever heard of Giovanni Falcone?

I do now. (I had to wiki the guy up though.)

 

[doolols]

If they weren't a 100% sure of a positive outcome, AC and Saxo should be much more concerned, or at least reserved, about the possible outcome, and Saxo should not be planning their entire season on AC.

Well, of course they would appear confident. Outwardly, publicly, they believe he's going to get off. Privately, you can bet that contingency plans are in place.

Can someone explain to me how they think he might escape with no (further) penalty? People on here are saying that the only way he can win is to prove the clenbuterol came from the steak, which is their only defence. It seems everyone agrees that, from our point of view outside CAS, the likelihood of the ingestion is much less than the transfusion.

 

[Nilsson]

Well, of course they would appear confident. Outwardly, publicly, they believe he's going to get off. Privately, you can get that contingency plans are in place.

Can someone explain to me how they think he might escape with no (further) penalty? People on here are saying that the only way he can win is to prove the clenbuterol came from the steak, which is their only defence. It seems everyone agrees that, from our point of view outside CAS, the likelihood of the ingestion is much less than the transfusion.

I wouldn't say the likelihood of ingestion is much less than that of the transfusion. It's impossible to say (for us). It all depends on the fact if a transfusion is likely (can it be proven?) and if it matches with the clenbuterol. If it doesn't match, it could even be that (maybe) there was a transfusion indeed, but possibly still a case of food contamination as well. A transfusion as such neither explains the clenbuterol (directly) nor excludes the theory of food contamination. The transfusion theory always implicates earlier use of clenbuterol (e.g. the famous 200 mcg a day for three weeks by WADA) which can be an obstacle (for CAS)...

It all depends on the statistics etc. CAS is going to use. There are a lot of different numbers out there. For example:

Based on a scientific study, the WADA argues the possibility of a cow in Castilla y León being fattened with clenbuterol is 0.0065 percent. Although the steak was bought in Irún, in the Basque Country, the AMA report refers to Castilla y León because its investigations establish the cow was reared in Pedraza de Alba (Salamanca) and slaughtered in Fuentesaúco (Zamora). The WADA also stated that 143 cases of illegal fattening with clenbuterol were detected from 1999 to 2002, and just four from 2003 to 2009.

 

[Cimber]

WADA has made a comment on the AP-story:

WADA has noticed the article written by the Associated Press on January 11, and wants to clarify that during the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) hearing into the case of Alberto Contador at no stage did WADA challenge any member of the panel for a lack of independence.
WADA is now awaiting the decision to be rendered by CAS.

As with all cases, and following the approach adopted throughout this case, in order to maintain the integrity of the legal process WADA will make no further comment.

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/News-Center/Articles/WADA-statement-following-AP-article-on-CAS/

 

[Woody22]

No. There is no reasonable chance. This point must be repeated until all the pretenders stop using it. It's equivalent to the Tyler Hamilton vanishing twin doping explanation. We agree that the Clen didn't get there because he ate something, but the way you phrased it gives the pretenders room to believe the meat supply is a remotely possible explanation.

Some of the comments suggest that the UCI's goals are the same as WADA's. They are not. Contador losing the appeal would be a major failure for the UCI. The UCI wants the RFEC decision to stand so Pat can say, "Well, we tried... Sigh.... " and ASO gets one of their stars cleared of doping allegations. A failed appeal preserves the appearance of an anti-doping program and satisfies ASO and IOC.

Contador's blood values are damning too. Does anyone know if they were introduced?

Training camps being arranged in Israel. Huh. The IOC/UCI is very good at this kind of distanced influence, so it is reasonable to assume CAS was bought. After all, Pat didn't get his Tour de China because China is a hotbed of competitive cycling. It's pay to play in China.

I just added that line in to keep the blind Contador fans at bay.

I think the whole thing stinks and if he gets off I for one will not move on and consider him an unfortunate victim of circumstances. Wonder how the clean riders will feel about it.

Anyway, enough ranting. Decision is unknown yet and it is not suprising that all the theories and "I heard this....." come out as the decision draws near.

As a fan of cycling, I hope he gets the 2 year ban his own Federation should have given him long ago so he can no longer cheat his fellow riders.

 

[Granville57]

Wonder how the clean riders will feel about it.

Which ones are those again?

 

[sniper]

Which ones are those again?

There may not be too many clean riders, but there are gradations, and Contador is known in the peloton to be among the heavy users.
I remember reactions from some riders in terms of "we weren't at all surprised to hear Contador got caught".

 

[ferryman]

There may not be too many clean riders, but there are gradations, and Contador is known in the peloton to be among the heavy users.
I remember reactions from some riders in terms of "we weren't at all surprised to hear Contador got caught".

Please feel free to post a link to any rider from your 'memory' to back up this statement because I certainly can't remember any.

 

[biopass]

Please feel free to post a link to any rider from your 'memory' to back up this statement because I certainly can't remember any.

What about (if my memory is correct) Chavanel, who sounded surprised that Contador failed a drugtest for Clen, and not a more "common" cycling related drug.

 

[biopass]

It was actually Offredo.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chavanel-says-contador-must-prove-his-innocence

"Right now, amongst the riders, I can tell you that we’re not that shocked.”

 

[danjo007]

It was actually Offredo.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chavanel-says-contador-must-prove-his-innocence

"Right now, amongst the riders, I can tell you that we’re not that shocked.”

hhahahaha, SNAP ferryman!

 

[The Hitch]

To defend Ferryman, that statement by offredo (before he got caught) doesnt really back up "Contador is known in the peloton to be among the heavy users"

By that logic Cancellara is known in the peloton to be among the heavy users because Devolder said his e3 break was impossible and Cav is known in the peloton to be among the heavy users becase Farrar questioned his recovery after suffering on mountain stages.

 

[sultanofhyd]

So these days "We are not shocked that he tested positive" = "We know he is a heavy user".

 

[LaFlorecita]

So these days "We are not shocked that he tested positive" = "We know he is a heavy user".

 

[sniper]

So these days "We are not shocked that he tested positive" = "We know he is a heavy user".

I remember more than one such reaction from within the peloton. It wasn't Chavanel or Offredo, it was Chavanel AND Offredo, and some others (I also seem to remember a German cyclist with similar remarks.)

In sum, yes, statements like "we weren't shocked to hear AC got popped" from more than one fellow-rider do indeed equal "look at whom he rides for, look at how he turned into a time-trial specialist with skinny legs, look at his links with Op. Puerto, etc., and do the friggin math".

Note also that the support for AC in the peloton was rather meager. Again, from memory, I recall riders saying AC's acquittal by the RFEC was a joke and an injustice.

 

[roundabout]

So Contador apparently has an exemption for high hematocrit according to the article in El Pais.

 

[Havetts]

€200.000 HCT.

Can you link the article roundabout?

 

[Cimber]

€200.000 HCT.

Can you link the article roundabout?

Think this is it:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/encrucijada/Contador/elpepidep/20120113elpepidep_7/Tes

 

[sniper]

Think this is it:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/encrucijada/Contador/elpepidep/20120113elpepidep_7/Tes

good article. from the article:

una persona de cuya imparcialidad duda bastante: el presidente de la formación arbitral, el israelí Efraín Barak

this is why:

Los abogados de la AMA empezaron a dudar de Barak, un jurista nacido en Argentina, cuando supieron que apenas una semana antes de la vista de Lausana había sido invitado por el Consejo Superior de Deportes (CSD) a dar una conferencia en Madrid en un seminario antidopaje en el que también participó Gorka Villar, abogado de Contador, hijo del presidente de la Federación Española de Fútbol y, esto lo investigaron posteriormente, que también había tenido antes relación profesional con Barak.

Even the Spanish press seems to spread conspiracy theories

"Este proceso en una farsa. Hemos estado a punto de irnos", fue el mensaje telefónico (sms) que uno de los expertos de la AMA envió a un amigo en la noche del miércoles 23 de noviembre, después del tercer día de la vista del caso Contador en Lausana.

 

[L'arriviste]

In 1999, only 16 riders (taken from all levels) had an haematocrit exemption (source). Wonder how many there are now.