Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

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Based on a scientific study, the WADA argues the possibility of a cow in Castilla y León being fattened with clenbuterol is 0.0065 percent. Although the steak was bought in Irún, in the Basque Country, the AMA report refers to Castilla y León because its investigations establish the cow was reared in Pedraza de Alba (Salamanca) and slaughtered in Fuentesaúco (Zamora). The WADA also stated that 143 cases of illegal fattening with clenbuterol were detected from 1999 to 2002, and just four from 2003 to 2009.

I believe these stats refer to testing of live cattle, not meat from slaughtered cattle. If the numbers in the last sentence refer to just Castilla y Leon, then they are definitely live cattle stats, not meat, and are not relevant to the probability of contaminated meat. OTOH, if they refer to all of Spain, they don’t support the 0.0065 % conclusion. IIRC, there are approximately 8 million cattle in Spain, so an average of less than one positive a year indicates that one in a million is more likely an overestimate, not an underestimate, of the probability.

But even if we do accept a probability of one in seventeen thousand, that is still in the range of effectively impossible. Where a number like that might come into play is if a large number of cyclists were tested using the sensitive equipment, and only Bert tested positive. Then you might be able to build a case. While the probability of a lone individual being positive is one in 17,000, the probability of one individual in a group testing positive—assuming each member of the group ate meat from a different source--could come into a more plausible range, if the group were large enough. Say, one in a thousand, or even one in several hundred. But I still don’t believe this number stacks up well against the transfusion scenario.

When 900 out of 1.000.000 are tested, at random in Europe, numbers are at least volatile

Again, if the samples are taken at random—and I think the burden of proof on Bert to show that they aren’t, IOW, that that governmental branch is acting incompetently—there is not that much volatility. We are talking of a standard error of roughly 5%, though any % of zero is still zero. Last year I furnished some calculations making various assumptions. With a sample of that size, the error simply is not large enough to change the general conclusion that the possibility of contaminated meat is extremely low.

I keep harping on political polls. In the U.S., look at the Obama vs. Romney numbers. They are based on a poll of just a few hundred voters, out of a population of I guess nearly two hundred million adults, spread across an enormous country that features huge variations in local culture and political leanings--but they don’t change that much over time. E.g., you don’t see 50-50 one week, and 75-25 the next week. And that’s despite the fact that there are many other factors definitely working to add volatility to the situation, that every day both men are doing things that will affect the opinion of voters. The numbers remain relatively stable over time because the sampling process does in fact have a relatively small error.

I understand the gut feeling, but where are the facts, numbers, chances?

IMO, that’s Bert’s problem, not WADA’s. Most of the hard science speaks to low probability of contamination, rather than to the probability of transfusion. This is mostly because, as I said, transfusion is quite possible, how likely it is revolves around asking whether Bert would actually do it—IOW getting into his head, which is something WADA/UCI or CAS are not supposed to do. It's not their job to furnish an estimate of the probability that Bert would risk something like this. In fact, if you look at some of the things dopers do—Ricco’s botched transfusion; setting up a special alarm clock to wake up in the middle of the night when your EPO-raised HT is about to cause a heart attack; inserting a tube in the urinary tract in order to **** out someone else’s clean urine—it’s obviously very dangerous to assume any drug or procedure that will provide PE will not be seriously entertained by an athlete.

The main science relevant to this issue is based on the frequency of his tests at various times during the year, which could provide an estimate of how easily he could get away with the various steps, particularly taking fairly large doses of CB for at least several days, without getting caught. IMO, if he could show that he had a fairly narrow window at all times that would be a big help.

The problem here is that he has to take CB in large doses over an extended period of time. He would only have to take it 3-4 days to reach the levels in his urine assuming withdrawal/transfusion, but probably longer if it was going to help him lose weight. At least a week, maybe two weeks. Following that, the drug would be in his system at a level detectable even by the relatively insensitive equipment for probably at least a week. So he has to be test-free for probably at least 2-3 weeks, and—inevitably bringing in psychological factors—he has to be tested infrequently enough so that he would believe he could be test free for this period of time. For example, if he were tested randomly, on average, once every two weeks, he would be a fool to try this, even if, in principle, he might get away with it. I think this is one area where psychological factors are helpful and should be considered. Even if there is a long history of very foolish athletes.

How often was he tested in the offseason? I don’t know, but I think it’s very relevant to this question, and it seems to me this is the weakest link in the transfusion scenario, not any of the following steps.

Withdrawal of blood would trigger changes detectable in the passport, but these could be avoided if the withdrawal were immediately countered with transfusion of previously stored blood. Failing that, keeping the withdrawal small, and repeating it several times, would likely keep him under the radar.

Separation of cells and plasma is known to be used by riders who have the financial means to do this. As I discussed earlier, freeze-drying of plasma has a long history, going back to WW II, and would reduce storage/transportation problems, while avoiding (even assuming he didn’t realize this was a benefit) the exposure of the plasma to DEHP.

Transfusion of cells of course is known to be used by many riders. Passport abnormalities are avoided by using small amounts of EPO to counter the natural suppression of reticulocyte synthesis, and by infusing fluid to lower the HT. If one is going to transfuse fluid, might as well add the plasma salts to it, as they may have a small PE effect, and in any case will maintain these substances at their natural levels in the blood.
 
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Publicus said:
I wouldn't think that was the case at all. WADA only has to poke sufficient holes in AC's case such that he can't meet his burden. That being said, I may be one of the few people here that think's AC's decision not to have a hair follicle test was a smart decision. Seems to me that WADA is in the rather diffficult position of pointing to his bio-passport to establish that a transfusion occurred on one or more days. Given that WADA/UCI have successfully prosecuted 1 or 2 riders using the passport alone (at least I seem to recall that they had, if I'm incorrect all of what follows is irrelevant), I suspect if AC's bio-passport had the relevant markers demonstrating a transfusion they would have proceed without the DEHP--since the test wasn't validated. That's why I think Ashden's testimony was irrelevant--it was all speculation unsupported by any evidence (i.e., he wasn't pointing to markers in AC's bio-passport that supported his contention). So in that regard, I think it makes WADA's job harder than some seem to contemplate. All of that is predicated on my rather rudimentary understanding of the bio-passport and my belief that WADA had successfully prosecuted (for lack of a better word) 1 or 2 riders for doping solely on their bio-passport alone. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong--I can handle it).

Well at least you had one person agreeing with you for a long time on that issue.

Regards
GJ
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Publicus said:
.... WADA only has to poke sufficient holes in AC's case such that he can't meet his burden.<snip>
this is where i see one of the biggest challenges for the cas panel - how to interpret a key issue, like what defines 'exceptional circumstances' for bert and whether he demonstrated them...

specifically, there are no precedents when wada (or another anti-doping organisation) appealed to cas a COMPLETE exoneration of an athlete charged with clenbuterol and the panel actually needing to sit down and delve into the details. at least i have not found any.

the often cited gasquet case is certainly relevant but it was different. virtually no one commented on its real limits of applicability to contador. that is, unlike a social drug - clenbuterol is a non-specified substance and thus the ‘the truly exceptional circumstances’ required by wada for applying the ‘no fault or negligence’ (para. 10.5.1)are different.

at the core of my point is, as best as i can deduce, cas has never tested the tenets of ‘exceptional circumstances’. for clen as applied by different ad organizations toward complete exoneration. iow, bert’s is the fist case in cas. (i do realise, clen was challenged in cas before but that was athlete's not backed by their feds)

let’s recall. ovtcharov appeal was dropped by wada after a protracted process. the same happened to phil nielsen - wada decided not to appeal danish doping board ruling. Wada also decided against appealing Rudi van Houts. then there were multiple football cases that wada was involved in. like a non-appeal decision regarding 5 Mexicans on 10/12/2011 and the 109 U-17 players.

i posted extensively about all these case. what I found interesting was that all the non-appeals decisions i mentioned occurred within a relatively short period of time - several months - whereas dozens up on dozens of clen cases from before the ovtcharon acquittal haven’t enjoyed the sudden (and apparent) ’awareness’ from wada.

what is my point ? perhaps the ovtcharov acquittal sparked a more relaxed view (and thus a fresh appraisal) by some ad authorities regarding the contamination possibility.

how does all this relate to contador’s hearing ? as far as I can see, wada rules in the case of non-specified substances, unlike with the specified ones, are less than crisp. that is, they allow differences in interpretations and thus may have some ados resorting to strict version and other ados to a more lenient version. I speculate that before ovtcharov, all interpretations were strict.

cas accepting rfec’s version of ‘exceptional circumstances’ would mean that cas considers clen contamination in an eu country credible despite all the statistics to the contrary wada relied on.
 
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As I explained before my main interest is the legal issues and strategy decisions in this case rather than the scientific arguments. Although I take great pleasure and have learned a lot from posts by the likes of python, MI and Nilsson, I cannot claim to fully comprehend every thing that has been said by them and others (me being more of a legal mind than a scientific mind).

The thing that struck me just now after the excellent explanation by Publicus is that notwithstanding the scientific explanations here that should have rendered the contaminated meat theory invalid as hell, WADA felt it necessary going forward with the burden of proof to propose an alternative theory to AC's theory (can I safely leave out the "alleged, leaked"-bit here now, without Doc Mas getting om my case? :p).

Now if indeed AC's theory was that weak, why would WADA have bothered at all to provide a very detailed transfusion theory going forward? Obviously AC's theory held enough merit for them not to take any risks in that respect and rather than just poking holes in his theory, they felty obliged to provide an alternative. Now I could be saying again that they took a huge leap of faith in the amount of details they provided in their theory thus leaving it wide open for an effective rebuttal, but I won't. ;)

Regards
GJ
 
Mar 19, 2009
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How do you guys rate the chance that, supposing a transfusion got Bert in trouble, that the clen was in fact ingested due to contaminated meat? bert won't trace thát cow, even if it was a Mexican-Chinese one, as just admiting to transfusion would be much cheaper.
Could unintensional clen ingestion, then 30x diluted with a transfusion, explain the test result at hand?

I am getting a Landis flashback feeling here. He did not use testosterone for some time, but was caught for that. He did feel unfairly convicted, right, even though he was very aware of his own blood doping.

Up til just now, I just assumed the transfusion to be likely, a mess-up by Bert and his crew, caught due to the new level of testing in Germany. But, could Bert in fact have been intending to be clean when drawing the blood, the clen being an honest accident?
 
Jan 10, 2012
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Merckx index said:
I believe these stats refer to testing of live cattle, not meat from slaughtered cattle. If the numbers in the last sentence refer to just Castilla y Leon, then they are definitely live cattle stats, not meat, and are not relevant to the probability of contaminated meat. OTOH, if they refer to all of Spain, they don’t support the 0.0065 % conclusion. IIRC, there are approximately 8 million cattle in Spain, so an average of less than one positive a year indicates that one in a million is more likely an overestimate, not an underestimate, of the probability.

I don't think so. Do you have actual numbers on actual meat-testing? Also important in this matter: the chance of eating contaminated meat isn't the same thing as test positive on it?

- how many people are tested? Almost negligible, I presume...
- how many people are tested in (for Europe) Cologne? Negligible (not even considering the regional function in the, I assume, even less problematic northern Europe)
- Contador, out of all people, was...

The chances undeniably small, but probably bigger than winning a lotery, Contador is one of a few with (a lot of) tickets. If someone is going to test positive on eating contaminated meat, he definitely has some straws...


But even if we do accept a probability of one in seventeen thousand, that is still in the range of effectively impossible. Where a number like that might come into play is if a large number of cyclists were tested using the sensitive equipment, and only Bert tested positive.

Bert also seems to be the only one who ate Spanish meat and was tested (in Cologne). If we like it or not, those elements and 'variation of normality' are facts and could be a (one in a million) winning ticket...

Then you might be able to build a case. While the probability of a lone individual being positive is one in 17,000, the probability of one individual in a group testing positive—assuming each member of the group ate meat from a different source--could come into a more plausible range, if the group were large enough. Say, one in a thousand, or even one in several hundred. But I still don’t believe this number stacks up well against the transfusion scenario.

Because it's suddenly less possible that they all transfused and used clen earlier than ate contaminated meat? Why? I don't know if I agree with that kind of math. Then they all had to eat contaminated meat (which is not more likely, if chances are that small), from tissue that was identically contaminated. I'm not sure at all that's more likely than being on the same doping program (especially being team mates)...

A
gain, if the samples are taken at random—and I think the burden of proof on Bert to show that they aren’t, IOW, that that governmental branch is acting incompetently—there is not that much volatility. We are talking of a standard error of roughly 5%, though any % of zero is still zero. Last year I furnished some calculations making various assumptions. With a sample of that size, the error simply is not large enough to change the general conclusion that the possibility of contaminated meat is extremely low.

At random means that more problematic regions can fly under the radar, will not be rated every year. To be more specific, I don't think it's a coincidence that in February 2011 over 16.000 kg of illegal meat was caught in Castilla Y Leon. But how much of that meat normally would have been tested? I'm afraid zero to nothing...

I keep harping on political polls. In the U.S., look at the Obama vs. Romney numbers. They are based on a poll of just a few hundred voters, out of a population of I guess nearly two hundred million adults, spread across an enormous country that features huge variations in local culture and political leanings--but they don’t change that much over time. E.g., you don’t see 50-50 one week, and 75-25 the next week. And that’s despite the fact that there are many other factors definitely working to add volatility to the situation, that every day both men are doing things that will affect the opinion of voters. The numbers remain relatively stable over time because the sampling process does in fact have a relatively small error.

I understand the harping. I can only agree with it, although I want to make some observations.

Firstly, in general it's always a close call in elections. A poll which gives a different view (75-25) won't be published, because it's very likely invalid. Also, looking at a more micro-level will show that (some) states will constantly switch, and not be properly predicted just as some regions will be more problematic with clenbuterol, not even speaking about the individual level. With a general poll (or a general testing program) you can only address a general view, you can't expect to pick up (every) regional/local/individual problem/switch or abnormality. The general view will be okay (indeed contamination is very unlikely) but the numbers will be volatile and do not have full predictive value...


This is mostly because, as I said, transfusion is quite possible, how likely it is revolves around asking whether Bert would actually do it—IOW getting into his head, which is something WADA/UCI or CAS are not supposed to do. It's not their job to furnish an estimate of the probability that Bert would risk something like this. In fact, if you look at some of the things dopers do—

But the same reasoning is valid for a farmer. If we like it or not, it's nothing but subjective. Like I said earlier: Contador is a cyclist, even a (multiple) grand Tour winner? Who are we fooling? But is that enough?

Since there are no reals numbers out there, and no specific precedents, it all depends on how much circumstancial evidence there is. How hard the theory is in Contador's situation...

The main science relevant to this issue is based on the frequency of his tests at various times during the year, which could provide an estimate of how easily he could get away with the various steps, particularly taking fairly large doses of CB for at least several days, without getting caught. IMO, if he could show that he had a fairly narrow window at all times that would be a big help.

Indeed. I read somewhere that in the first six months of 2010 alone he was tested about 37 times. That's a lot, and in no comparison to the meat (in terms of 'getting it in your head' and taking risks). It thus could be a fairly narrow window, that could make his case stronger...


Separation of cells and plasma is known to be used by riders who have the financial means to do this. As I discussed earlier, freeze-drying of plasma has a long history, going back to WW II, and would reduce storage/transportation problems, while avoiding (even assuming he didn’t realize this was a benefit) the exposure of the plasma to DEHP.

I know, but think separation doesn't make lot of sense these days. You would only create extra problems (plasma/saline storage/transportation and passport-risks during a certain time frame - even a day in the proposed theory). But, yes, it is undeniably possible, in general and in lots of different ways...

Transfusion of cells of course is known to be used by many riders. Passport abnormalities are avoided by using small amounts of EPO to counter the natural suppression of reticulocyte synthesis, and by infusing fluid to lower the HT. If one is going to transfuse fluid, might as well add the plasma salts to it, as they may have a small PE effect, and in any case will maintain these substances at their natural levels in the blood.

Correct, although you understand that using EPO is always a risk and you would have to use it around the times you do a transfusion (in or around competition most of the times). It creates therefore a normal testing and possibly a passport problem as well, being able to result in completely out of hand reticulocyte percentages of 2 percent and higher. Maybe useful for a low-profile rider (with a low budget) but not for someone at the top. I can certainly imagine Contador to do some pretty clever transfusion techniques, but EPO being part of it?
 
Jan 10, 2012
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GJB123 said:
Now if indeed AC's theory was that weak, why would WADA have bothered at all to provide a very detailed transfusion theory going forward?

You have to understand that this case turned in a contamination case almost immediately, because the positive test (small traces, getting logically smaller in the days after) preceded by negative tests. Every party accepted that, or had to accept that. Contamination, in some form, was what remained...

Because of that, both from a legal as scientific standpoint, WADA had to come up with something, because actual use of clenbuterol in the Tour wasn't possible (and strict liability would probably not do the trick). If WADA wouldn't have done that, AC's theory was the only viable theory on the table - how remotely possible it may or may not be...
 
Jan 10, 2012
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Cloxxki said:
How do you guys rate the chance that, supposing a transfusion got Bert in trouble, that the clen was in fact ingested due to contaminated meat?

Up til just now, I just assumed the transfusion to be likely, a mess-up by Bert and his crew, caught due to the new level of testing in Germany. But, could Bert in fact have been intending to be clean when drawing the blood, the clen being an honest accident?

Interesting idea, although it's very unlikely that eating contaminated meat at the time of the blood withdrawal would result in a clen positive through transfusion. The traces should be smaller or the meat must have been highly contaminated (and that's an understatement)...

However, both theories can perfectly be valid next to each other. It is possible that Contador did a transfusion (resulting in some strange passport variations and, not to forget, the high DEHP-levels the day before the clen positive) but actually ate contaminated meat as well (on the rest day).

A blood transfusion, as such, isn't a resolving explanation for the clenbuterol positive. As long as you have no actual prove of earlier clenbuterol use, you haven't got a conclusive theory but only an assumption...
 

Dr. Maserati

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python said:
this is where i see one of the biggest challenges for the cas panel - how to interpret a key issue, like what defines 'exceptional circumstances' for bert and whether he demonstrated them...
I was about get my computer checked because I thought it was bringing me back to the first page of this thread when I read you are bringing up the German ponger and discussing how CAS will apply the law.


python said:
specifically, there are no precedents when wada (or another anti-doping organisation) appealed to cas a COMPLETE exoneration of an athlete charged with clenbuterol and the panel actually needing to sit down and delve into the details. at least i have not found any.

the often cited gasquet case is certainly relevant but it was different. virtually no one commented on its real limits of applicability to contador. that is, unlike a social drug - clenbuterol is a non-specified substance and thus the ‘the truly exceptional circumstances’ required by wada for applying the ‘no fault or negligence’ (para. 10.5.1)are different.

Did you actually read the rule - it says Prohibited Substance, which clenbuterol is.

PS - you obviously went through the Gasquet case, any answer to the question I asked earlier about your shifting burden theory.

python said:
at the core of my point is, as best as i can deduce, cas has never tested the tenets of ‘exceptional circumstances’. for clen as applied by different ad organizations toward complete exoneration. iow, bert’s is the fist case in cas. (i do realise, clen was challenged in cas before but that was athlete's not backed by their feds)

For rule 10.5.1 and the exceptional circumstance to apply, the athlete has to establish how the Prohibited Substance was in their system.
python said:
let’s recall. ovtcharov appeal was dropped by wada after a protracted process. the same happened to phil nielsen - wada decided not to appeal danish doping board ruling. Wada also decided against appealing Rudi van Houts. then there were multiple football cases that wada was involved in. like a non-appeal decision regarding 5 Mexicans on 10/12/2011 and the 109 U-17 players.
Lets recall that Ovtcharov has nothing to do with this case.
CAS do not use local (NFs, NADA) decisions - if they did they would be applying the Kazahk standard of a year ban for blood doping.


python said:
i posted extensively about all these case. what I found interesting was that all the non-appeals decisions i mentioned occurred within a relatively short period of time - several months - whereas dozens up on dozens of clen cases from before the ovtcharon acquittal haven’t enjoyed the sudden (and apparent) ’awareness’ from wada.

what is my point ? perhaps the ovtcharov acquittal sparked a more relaxed view (and thus a fresh appraisal) by some ad authorities regarding the contamination possibility.

how does all this relate to contador’s hearing ? as far as I can see, wada rules in the case of non-specified substances, unlike with the specified ones, are less than crisp. that is, they allow differences in interpretations and thus may have some ados resorting to strict version and other ados to a more lenient version. I speculate that before ovtcharov, all interpretations were strict.

cas accepting rfec’s version of ‘exceptional circumstances’ would mean that cas considers clen contamination in an eu country credible despite all the statistics to the contrary wada relied on.

WADA did indeed issue a statement on clenbuterol:
June 15, 2011
Following current media interest in relation to clenbuterol, WADA wishes to clarify the following:
1. Clenbuterol is a prohibited substance and there is no threshold under which this substance is not prohibited.
2. At present there is no plan to introduce a threshold level for clenbuterol.
3. It is possible that under certain circumstances the presence of a low level of clenbuterol in an athlete sample can be the result of food contamination. However, each case is different and all elements need to be taken into account.
4. Under the World Anti-Doping Code, result management of cases foresees the opportunity for an athlete to explain how a prohibited substance entered his/her body.
5. Next week, WADA laboratory experts will meet, as they do regularly, and amongst other issues will discuss the situation with regards to clenbuterol. No decision will be taken at this meeting and any recommendation will then be reviewed and discussed at the WADA Health, Medical and Research Committee in view of the preparation of the 2012 List.
6. The power to take a decision and to adopt the 2012 List is vested to the WADA Executive Committee, composed equally of the Sport Movement and Governments, that will meet in September.
WADA will refrain from making any further comment regarding clenbuterol until the review process has been completed.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Nilsson said:
You have to understand that this case turned in a contamination case almost immediately, because the positive test (small traces, getting logically smaller in the days after) preceded by negative tests. Every party accepted that, or had to accept that. Contamination, in some form, was what remained...

Because of that, both from a legal as scientific standpoint, WADA had to come up with something, because actual use of clenbuterol in the Tour wasn't possible (and strict liability would probably not do the trick). If WADA wouldn't have done that, AC's theory was the only viable theory on the table - how remotely possible it may or may not be...

I have posted this before.

The tests before the positive on the 21st July were conducted in Lausanne, the tests from 21st July on were done in Cologne which as we know has more sensitive equipment.

Perhaps LMG can chime in but the half life of clen could mean that a higher concentration of clen was present but not detected on the 20th because it would still be under the MRPL.

Also, if I recall correctly the tests for clenbuterol are 'qualitative', not 'quantitative'. In plain speak, the amount detected is not absolute, because the presence of any clenbuterol automatically leads to an AAF.
 
Jan 10, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
I have posted this before.

The tests before the positive on the 21st July were conducted in Lausanne, the tests from 21st July on were done in Cologne which as we know has more sensitive equipment.

Very likely to be correct. But since Laussane is a WADA-lab as well it doesn't matter, and it's just in the game. It's also the reason why I said 'or had to accept'. WADA just has to accept the results and it's consequences - like they do the other way around by accepting that Cologne can find lower values...

Perhaps LMG can chime in but the half life of clen could mean that a higher concentration of clen was present but not detected on the 20th because it would still be under the MRPL.

Correct, but as I just stated: it's not important, since it's in the game. Moreover, that single fact wouldn't change the fact that this is a contamination case - but of course probably transfusion to be the more likely theory (although a higher concentration of clen, as Merckx Index has pointed out several times, can ironically be problematic for the transfusion scenario. An analogy of 100 pg/ml in urine, with around 700-1000 ng intake, probably would be, for instance...

Or it must have been a residue of a clenbuterol cure just before the Tour, with Contador having the luck that in that situation none of his samples (from Dauphiné till July 20th) has been tested on clenbuterol. It is possible, but not likely. More so, since all of his other samples (after July 20th) apparently were. Anyhow, it's nice for our discussion but not important for the case...

Also, I think Laussane probably can detect (way) lower than 2 ng/ml. I don't know it for sure but I guess a lot of labs could find up to 10% of that (200 pg/ml). I guess that's the main reason why lots of scientists (including Wilhelm Schänzer, who invented the Cologne test) consider 200 pg/ml as a possible threshold. In Los Angeles (where they can find lower values as well, like in Cologne) they even seem to have decided to already implement that. They didn't report the values under 200 pg/ml (as we found out in the case of the Mexican Football players - and maybe Cologne would have done the same, together with UCI, if the German journalist hadn't nose around and leaked the finding?) Now I think of it: maybe that informal threshold could be of importance to Contador's case as well. An MRPL is one thing, but internal discussion and WADA-labs themselves implementing some informal threshold? It probably won't be decisive but it could weigh (in the balance)...

Also, if I recall correctly the tests for clenbuterol are 'qualitative', not 'quantitative'. In plain speak, the amount detected is not absolute, because the presence of any clenbuterol automatically leads to an AAF.

Yes, but I don't consider that a problem. There will of course be a margin of error but probably only really significant at very low values (e.g. the spiking of Contador in the last days more likely due to that than another 'intake')...
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
PS - you obviously went through the Gasquet case, any answer to the question I asked earlier about your shifting burden theory.

Thanks to Publicus we now know that it is not shifting of the burden of proof but going the burden of proof going forward. So you can stop trying to score a point over python because you were both partly right (and therefore also party wrong) as has been acknowledged by python. Now we just have to sit back and wait whether you are able to do the same.

Regards
GJ
 

Dr. Maserati

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Nilsson said:
Very likely to be correct. But since Laussane is a WADA-lab as well it doesn't matter, and it's just in the game. It's also the reason why I said 'or had to accept'. WADA just has to accept the results and it's consequences - like they do the other way around by accepting that Cologne can find lower values...



Correct, but as I just stated: it's not important, since it's in the game. Moreover, that single fact wouldn't change the fact that this is a contamination case - but of course probably transfusion to be the more likely theory (although a higher concentration of clen, as Merckx Index has pointed out several times, can ironically be problematic for the transfusion scenario. An analogy of 100 pg/ml in urine, with around 700-1000 ng intake, probably would be, for instance...
Who says this is a contamination case? The source of Contadors clenbuterol is still very much being debated.

Also, I don't understand the "it is the game" reference.

Nilsson said:
Or it must have been a residue of a clenbuterol cure just before the Tour, with Contador having the luck that in that situation none of his samples (from Dauphiné till July 20th) has been tested on clenbuterol. It is possible, but not likely. More so, since all of his other samples (after July 20th) apparently were. Anyhow, it's nice for our discussion but not important for the case...

Also, I think Laussane probably can detect (way) lower than 2 ng/ml. I don't know it for sure but I guess a lot of labs could find up to 10% of that (200 pg/ml). I guess that's the main reason why lots of scientists (including Wilhelm Schänzer, who invented the Cologne test) consider 200 pg/ml as a possible threshold. In Los Angeles (where they can find lower values as well, like in Cologne) they even seem to have decided to already implement that. They didn't report the values under 200 pg/ml (as we found out in the case of the Mexican Football players - and maybe Cologne would have done the same, together with UCI, if the German journalist hadn't nose around and leaked the finding?) Now I think of it: maybe that informal threshold could be of importance to Contador's case as well. An MRPL is one thing, but internal discussion and WADA-labs themselves implementing some informal threshold? It probably won't be decisive but it could weigh (in the balance)...



Yes, but I don't consider that a problem. There will of course be a margin of error but probably only really significant at very low values (e.g. the spiking of Contador in the last days more likely due to that than another 'intake')...
You're basing a lot of your findings on 'guesses'.

Can you show where Schanzer talks about a 200ng/ml limit? I have read where he thinks a threshold might be prudent but I have never read where he puts forth an amount.
 

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GJB123 said:
Thanks to Publicus we now know that it is not shifting of the burden of proof but going the burden of proof going forward. So you can stop trying to score a point over python because you were both partly right (and therefore also party wrong) as has been acknowledged by python. Now we just have to sit back and wait whether you are able to do the same.

Regards
GJ
I have never had any problem admitting i am wrong, I have even done it on this thread.
Where possible, I provide links to my opinion, not jsut write in bold or underscore it, for the very reason that it can be examined and interpreted by people who are more knowledgeable on the subject.

That is why a appreciate Publicus contribution although it reinforces the fact that it is up to AC to show contamination.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Who says this is a contamination case? The source of Contadors clenbuterol is still very much being debated.

The source is, but not that it is whatever form of contamination (as in: actual use of clenbuterol during the Tour is not the case)...

Contamination is what remains. If it's contaminated meat or a contaminated transfusion? That's what's discussed right now...

Also, I don't understand the "it is the game" reference.

With 'it is in the game' i express that WADA inevtibably has to accept that a Laussane sample is negative, because they accept a Cologne sample to be positive. A WADA accredited lab, is a WADA accredited lab. WADA accepts that in some labs they can find more, so they have to accept that in some labs they can find less. That's all in the game...


You're basing a lot of your findings on 'guesses'.

Only when I'm guessing, and I'm straitforward enough when I do to say "I guess" or "I'm not sure". So I don't see what's your point? A bit feeble, if you ask me...

Can you show where Schanzer talks about a 200ng/ml limit? I have read where he thinks a threshold might be prudent but I have never read where he puts forth an amount.

It's 200 pg/ml (probably a typo on your side, and a bit feeble on my side to point). Although, more important, I have to admit that I can't find a document him saying that (or any) amount right now. Only an interpretations of others (mostly Douwe De Boer) and the practices in LA. It looks to be (generally) considered to be a possible threshold, but I have to give you Schänzer back...
 

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Nilsson said:
The source is, but not that it is whatever form of contamination (as in: actual use of clenbuterol during the Tour is not the case)...

Contamination is what remains. If it's contaminated meat or a contaminated transfusion? That's what's discussed right now...
Well you base that on the negative Lausanne test, which I will address below.

Also I doubt Contador is going to put forth that he accidentally got 'contaminated' because they botched his blood transfusion.
Nilsson said:
With 'it is in the game' i express that WADA inevtibably has to accept that a Laussane sample is negative, because they accept a Cologne sample to be positive. A WADA accredited lab, is a WADA accredited lab. WADA accepts that in some labs they can find more, so they have to accept that in some labs they can find less. That's all in the game...
Yes, the Lausanne test is negative, thats not in dispute.

However depending on level they apply to detect clenbuterol it could still leave open the possibility of clenbuterol in his system.

Nilsson said:
Only when I'm guessing, and I'm straitforward enough when I do to say "I guess" or "I'm not sure". So I don't see what's your point? A bit feeble, if you ask me...

No biggie - but I have noticed your guesses are to fit a conclusion, they are not actually to question or establish the actual facts.

Nilsson said:
It's 200 pg/ml (probably a typo on your side, and a bit feeble on my side to point). Although, more important, I have to admit that I can't find a document him saying that (or any) amount right now. Only an interpretations of others (mostly Douwe De Boer) and the practices in LA. It looks to be (generally) considered to be a possible threshold, but I have to give you Schänzer back...

Ok.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Well

However depending on level they apply to detect clenbuterol it could still leave open the possibility of clenbuterol
as was explained to
you several times, repeating an irrelevant issue several times does not make it relevant. negative
on the 20th is negative. wada accepted it. one has to use your own observation, by bringing so much irrelevancy that was already adressed, u r here not to discussed facts.
 

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python said:
as was explained to
you several times, repeating an irrelevant issue several times does not make it relevant. negative
on the 20th is negative
. wada accepted it. one has to use your own observation, by bringing so much irrelevancy that was already adressed, u r here not to discussed facts.

Thanks Python - I already acknowledged it is indeed a negative result for the 20th. I even stated thats not in dispute.
However, just because it was negative in the Lausanne test does not in itself mean there was not clenbuterol in the sample. I trust you understand the distinction.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Thanks Python - I already acknowledged it is indeed a negative result for the 20th. I even stated thats not in dispute.
However, just because it was negative in the Lausanne test does not in itself mean there was not clenbuterol in the sample. I trust you understand the distinction.
thank you, maserati, i already acknowledged that you acknowledged it is indeed a negative. i trust you understand now than irrelevant remains irrelevant and has nothing to do with seeking facts.
 

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python said:
thank you, maserati, i already acknowledged that you acknowledged it is indeed a negative. i trust you understand now than irrelevant remains irrelevant and has nothing to do with seeking facts.
You're welcome.

I do indeed understand that you believe this to be irrelevant -I trust you understand that I place no trust in your opinion.
Your opinion does not address that there may indeed have been clenbuterol undetected in the Lausanne sample. This is not a fact, merely a possibility.

If you have some facts I would certainly be interested in reading them.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
You're welcome.

I do indeed understand that you believe this to be irrelevant -I trust you understand that I place no trust in your opinion.
Your opinion does not address that there may indeed have been clenbuterol undetected in the Lausanne sample. This is not a fact, merely a possibility.

If you have some facts I would certainly be interested in reading them.

i trust you have read my opinion about your inputs. i further trust you have read another members remark of your input as being feeble. i further trust, at least i hope you trust, that wada rendered your irrelevant about the test on the 20th.. and since we're talking about trust, it was obvious i did not express any opinion except pointing out you being irrelevant to where wada went. this is not a possibility, this is a fact - your persistence about a non-relevance makes you look stupid.
 

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python said:
i trust you have read my opinion about your inputs. i further trust you have read another members remark of your input as being feeble. i further trust, at least i hope you trust, that wada rendered your irrelevant about the test on the 20th.. and since we're talking about trust, it was obvious i did not express any opinion except pointing out you being irrelevant to where wada went. this is not a possibility, this is a fact - your persistence about a non-relevance makes you look stupid.

Yes Python - I have indeed read your opinion, many many times - indeed since you never offer any facts, thats all I ever get, your opinion.
Oh and of course getting called 'clueless', 'stupid' etc.

Can you point out where "wada rendered your irrelevant about the test on the 20th", I missed that, thanks.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Yes Python - I have indeed read your opinion, many many times - indeed since you never offer any facts, thats all I ever get, your opinion.
Oh and of course getting called 'clueless', 'stupid' etc.

Can you point out where "wada rendered your irrelevant about the test on the 20th", I missed that, thanks.
let's get back to the facts, poser. you should know by now that your bs wont fly with me and i'll do what i have to do to expose you.

you brought an irrelevant issue of the test on the 2oth for the nth time, the issue that was rendered even by wada irrelevant to their case, is it really a stretch to use your own expression you used in bashing another member just few posts ago - as failing to seek facts. you admitted to it. what is your problem now ? that you make yourself look stupid ? but you could easily avoid it by not digging yourself into the hole even further.

you need to appreciate that i'm trying to help you.
 
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