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Race Radio said:
hahaha yes they did, but it was only because of a procedural error in that the A and B sample were tested by the same person, something which is against the rules:
(from spanish wiki page)
Even so, the CAS said that he still doped, but let him off:
(from the English wiki page)
Anyway, the guy had a medical certificate explaining that he had abnormally high levels of testosterone, but he got caught because a new test could determine that the testosterone in his system was the artificial stuff, and not the natural type. The Spanish federation let him off straight away and he got off at the CAS because of a tecnicality as explained above.
Ah, then he went positive for CERA and subsequently quit the sport.
- Dec 30, 2009
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therealtimshady said:
Seriously that is a point I'm not sure about at all if the ruling goes against him. Just when will the ban start? Can we expect it from the date of the ruling or are CAS likely to backdate it any? I can't see why they would but they may shorten it to compensate the whole mess of the case and the time he at least notionally couldn't ride.
Dr. Maserati
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- Jun 19, 2009
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....and from memory in the cases of Pantani, Stefano Zanini, Bo Hamburger and Guzev.Race Radio said:
- Jul 25, 2009
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hrotha said:
I don't think it's likely they will establish clen got into his system from a transfusion, so I doubt there will be any new infraction or aggravating circumstances claimed. I think they are likely to be able to show that the probability he had a transfusion is much higher than the probability of contamination from meat purchased in Europe. So under strict liability the clen AAF would stick, but the level of certainty is probably too low for a separate transfusion AAF....unless they get more evidence from somewhere as RR pointed out.
I have to say, if hemoglobin in the 16g/L range is "usual" for Bert (I'm glad CN didn't use the word natural in that context) and he had a spike pushing 18g/L, that coupled with the clen AAf, it's appropriate that he is sanctioned IMO. Sad to say cause I'm a huge Bert fan.
- Aug 13, 2009
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As far as the ban goes I expect they will account for some "Time Served" IIRC AC pulled himself from competition once he found out about the positive and then was cleared to race in February.....also know as the off season. It is a technicality but I think they will take it into consideration.
Ashenden will be on the stand for WADA. He will be a much better exprt witness then a butcher and a lie detector dude
Ashenden will be on the stand for WADA. He will be a much better exprt witness then a butcher and a lie detector dude
Dr. Maserati
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- Jun 19, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Yip - he was officially suspended from 26th August 2010 (the date he was 'officially' informed about his A positive by UCI) and was cleared on 15th February.
If he is suspended that time served (even though it was during the off season) will probably be taken off.
- Oct 6, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Again jumping to conclusions like a true Bob Beamon. I have gone on record many times that I personally find it likely that Contador doped in some way or other. However as a legal professional my interest is in how they go about the case and from that point of view I am still to be convinced that Contador will lose this case based on the legal technicalities of the case and I do think he might still be able to show enough doubt to escape sanctions.
But if it makes you feel more comfortable to label me as the next Contador fanboi, please be my guest. Whatever suits your fancy.
Regards
GJ
- Aug 13, 2009
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GJB123 said:
I did not label you a fanboi.
You are welcome to believe that tinted meat is the most likely cause however I do not see this and the experts at anti-doping, WADA, agree. I believe they will prove their case to CAS and AC will be sanctioned....For how long I am not sure, at least a year
- Jul 10, 2011
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Race Radio said:
Again where did I say I believe the tainted meat story. You are incurable!
Regards
GJ
From CN:
We've been over this before. Different pharmacokinetics can account for this. The discrepancy does NOT mean that DEHP and CB could not have entered his system at the same time.
The DEHP test is a real wild card. WADA doesn't want to fund it any more, but that may be because the cat--or should I say, the blood?--is out of the bag. Riders are forewarned and will avoid using bags with DEHP. That doesn't necessarily mean they won't use the test on Bert. I'm intrigued by the fact that Bert has retained a DEHP expert, I would think going in he would know if WADA planned to raise this issue or not, so it seems to indicate they will.
He was notified on Aug. 24 according to a CN story last year. But the real point is that according to the WADA code, the ban begins when he accepts the suspension, which was around the end of September. Unless--and again, see WADA passages I quoted earlier in this thread--CAS decides to backdate, in which case they could begin the ban as early as July, when the samples were taken. My bet is they will do this if Bert is banned, as in that case they will want to ease the consequences of the ban as much as legally possible. If CAS rules any kind of ban, I think everyone lined up against Bert will be in a very generous mood wrt terms.
GJB, wrt your question about why Bert was not previously sanctioned for his May results: A Hb spike by itself, though very suspicious, does not necessarily trigger a red flag. The passport is based on the relationship of several blood parameters, and possibly the Hb spike was in effect balanced to some extent by other factors. And/or he could have been called in, re-tested, and found to have normal values. We've seen how long it has taken to make passport abnormalities stick for a sanction on a couple of riders. One Hb spike, in isolation, no matter how suspicious, could not get a rider much more than extra attention. I'm assuming that the spike was the only curious thing about his numbers at that time.
As Python and LMG have explained, if he didn't withdraw and freeze blood, he would have had to make regular withdrawals and transfusions throughout the season, so he could have transfused in May. However, in that case, a transfusion should have immediately followed withdrawal, so one would not expect much of a spike. The purpose of transfusing at that point is just to replace the blood withdrawn, and also to suppress the increase in reticulocytes that is triggered by withdrawal (there is no drug you can take to suppress reticulocyte synthesis, unlike the EPO used to stimulate it, so withdrawal is the most vulnerable aspect of the cycle for the doper). So I rather doubt that a Hb spike could be explained by a withdrawal/transfusion cycle.
I think that spike is very curious, and possibly could have a pathological cause, though I'm not sure what. Another poster suggested it might have resulted from a mistake, such as overuse of EPO. That is possible, too, as following transfusion, retics are suppressed, and EPO is used to stimulate them a little. Depending on how long after withdrawal transfusion takes place, transfusion could suppress reticulocytes well below the established passport baseline, which would necessitate taking EPO. But if the rider does that, then he runs the risk of raising Hb above normal levels, since the transfusion alone brings him back to normal levels. I'm not certain of this scenario, it depends on timing and other factors, but it is one possible explanation.
We've been over this before. Different pharmacokinetics can account for this. The discrepancy does NOT mean that DEHP and CB could not have entered his system at the same time.
The DEHP test is a real wild card. WADA doesn't want to fund it any more, but that may be because the cat--or should I say, the blood?--is out of the bag. Riders are forewarned and will avoid using bags with DEHP. That doesn't necessarily mean they won't use the test on Bert. I'm intrigued by the fact that Bert has retained a DEHP expert, I would think going in he would know if WADA planned to raise this issue or not, so it seems to indicate they will.
He was notified on Aug. 24 according to a CN story last year. But the real point is that according to the WADA code, the ban begins when he accepts the suspension, which was around the end of September. Unless--and again, see WADA passages I quoted earlier in this thread--CAS decides to backdate, in which case they could begin the ban as early as July, when the samples were taken. My bet is they will do this if Bert is banned, as in that case they will want to ease the consequences of the ban as much as legally possible. If CAS rules any kind of ban, I think everyone lined up against Bert will be in a very generous mood wrt terms.
GJB, wrt your question about why Bert was not previously sanctioned for his May results: A Hb spike by itself, though very suspicious, does not necessarily trigger a red flag. The passport is based on the relationship of several blood parameters, and possibly the Hb spike was in effect balanced to some extent by other factors. And/or he could have been called in, re-tested, and found to have normal values. We've seen how long it has taken to make passport abnormalities stick for a sanction on a couple of riders. One Hb spike, in isolation, no matter how suspicious, could not get a rider much more than extra attention. I'm assuming that the spike was the only curious thing about his numbers at that time.
As Python and LMG have explained, if he didn't withdraw and freeze blood, he would have had to make regular withdrawals and transfusions throughout the season, so he could have transfused in May. However, in that case, a transfusion should have immediately followed withdrawal, so one would not expect much of a spike. The purpose of transfusing at that point is just to replace the blood withdrawn, and also to suppress the increase in reticulocytes that is triggered by withdrawal (there is no drug you can take to suppress reticulocyte synthesis, unlike the EPO used to stimulate it, so withdrawal is the most vulnerable aspect of the cycle for the doper). So I rather doubt that a Hb spike could be explained by a withdrawal/transfusion cycle.
I think that spike is very curious, and possibly could have a pathological cause, though I'm not sure what. Another poster suggested it might have resulted from a mistake, such as overuse of EPO. That is possible, too, as following transfusion, retics are suppressed, and EPO is used to stimulate them a little. Depending on how long after withdrawal transfusion takes place, transfusion could suppress reticulocytes well below the established passport baseline, which would necessitate taking EPO. But if the rider does that, then he runs the risk of raising Hb above normal levels, since the transfusion alone brings him back to normal levels. I'm not certain of this scenario, it depends on timing and other factors, but it is one possible explanation.
I'm still hoping WADA will emphasize that it's more likely that Contador was mixing up at least 2 forms of doping (clen and transfusions) rather than riding around clean, let alone find a doped up cow in Europe. That he should be mighty thankful if he's only get 2 years for this. But, they'd take his results starting the positive (or that odd May blood sample), and then 2 years ban starting Januari. What do you expect, 2 seperate offenses in one time period, that has seen other cyclists (Erwin Bakker for instance) be kicked out of all sports for life.
UCI cannot be trusted to make a good case against an athlete, no sports fed can be. Luckily, WADA have their own appeal. WADA and CAS I trust, (inter)national feds, no thank you!
UCI cannot be trusted to make a good case against an athlete, no sports fed can be. Luckily, WADA have their own appeal. WADA and CAS I trust, (inter)national feds, no thank you!
- Aug 13, 2009
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GJB123 said:
Indeed, you did not. I misread your post when you wrote
GJB123 said:
You were saying that AC needs to show, not that you believe.
As to my comment about the meat. I did not mean to infer the AC MUST have the meat, of course he does not. My point was that because he lacks both the tainted product and there was little evidence of Clen in the food supply his case will be very challenged.
Dr. Maserati
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- Jun 19, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Sortof.
AC was first notified 24th Aug.
But he then had the rather strange meeting in Spain with Doctors from the UCI on August 26th - it is this date that was accepted by RFEC as the start of his suspension.
The UCI press release that announced the AAF in September states:
Cloxxki said:
I raised the possibility of two separate offenses--CB and transfusion--last Feb or March on the original Contador thread. The transfusion scenario seems to cut two ways. On the one hand, if WADA has to show transfusion was likely (it seems to me they shouldn't, that the burden is all on Bert to demonstrate contaminated meat, not on WADA to demonstrate some alternative)--then this helps Bert. I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of showing he ate contaminated meat. I think he at least has a snowball's chance in California of showing he didn't transfuse. (Though he can't cite this as evidence, one thing that has always bothered me about the transfusion scenario--though it is solidly supported by science--is that I can't believe a rider of Bert's status would be so dumb to withdraw blood when he knew he had lots of CB in his system. Even if he had to lose weight in a hurry after the DL. And even if he didn't know about the Cologne lab.)
On the other hand, if transfusion is established, one can hardly avoid the conclusion of two separate offenses. Proving transfusion also proves intentional use of CB. So this seems to me a high risk strategy, for both sides.
It was never clear to me from this passage or any other that the suspension dated to August. The article says according to the code, but as I quoted earlier in the thread, the code does not say when the rider is notified, it says when he accepts the suspension.
However, if it is August and not September, this could be critical if Bert is allowed to keep his 2011 results, and begins serving his remaining ban after the season, or upon the CAS decision announced. I think this is unlikely, but if it happens, he could begin riding immediately in 2013 (following a two year ban, with the remainder beginning after he stopped racing in 2011), or he could race the Vuelta in 2013 (if the remainder of the ban followed the CAS decision). I still think the most likely ban scenario is backdating to July and including all of 2011 in the ban, though.
- Aug 13, 2009
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Merckx index said:
I doubt he would be able to keep anything, including the 2010 Tour, after the positive. However I would expect they would credit the Aug-Feb time to his sanction.
While I think he will get two it could be only a year. This could mean he has only 6 months, say Jan 15-June 15th.
Dr. Maserati
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- Jun 19, 2009
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He doesn't have to have lots of CB in his system, how much Clen would you have to take to help lose a Kilo or 2? How much of that would show up in a test?Merckx index said:
Remember the positive tests were from Cologne lab which can find smaller traces than some other laboratory's.
The 26th August was the date accepted by RFEC in their resolution.Merckx index said:
He is currently not suspended so I am not sure where you are getting your scenario's from. If he is suspended then I would expect the 5 and a half months already served (Aug'10- Feb'11) to be taken off.
- Aug 6, 2009
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Contador is my favorite rider, and I've made no bones about this.
I hope he's cleared for three reasons-
1) I don't want to see him stripped of any grand tour wins.
2) After seven years of having the sport hijacked by one of the worst personalities in all of sport, all while his team's absolute doping was rubbed in everyone's face with such arrogance, Contador seems like a breath of fresh air, especially given the fact that next summer we will be subjected to the exact same type of cycling terrorism with Bruyneel's new team as we were when Armstrong raced.
3) Sanctioning Contador will do nothing to move the sport forward, especially for such a low limit of clen, regardless of the fact that the clen amount may or may not be an indicator of possible blood doping. If the Festina Affair, Operation Puerto and the Armstrong debacle have done nothing to alter the course of doping in cycling, a Contador suspension will achieve even less.
Let the guy ride, for crying out loud.
I hope he's cleared for three reasons-
1) I don't want to see him stripped of any grand tour wins.
2) After seven years of having the sport hijacked by one of the worst personalities in all of sport, all while his team's absolute doping was rubbed in everyone's face with such arrogance, Contador seems like a breath of fresh air, especially given the fact that next summer we will be subjected to the exact same type of cycling terrorism with Bruyneel's new team as we were when Armstrong raced.
3) Sanctioning Contador will do nothing to move the sport forward, especially for such a low limit of clen, regardless of the fact that the clen amount may or may not be an indicator of possible blood doping. If the Festina Affair, Operation Puerto and the Armstrong debacle have done nothing to alter the course of doping in cycling, a Contador suspension will achieve even less.
Let the guy ride, for crying out loud.
- Jun 16, 2009
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I am predicting a two year ban.
Also, I am confused why he would be using a polygraph expert in this case? It is widely disputed how valid the lie detection test really is?
Also, I am confused why he would be using a polygraph expert in this case? It is widely disputed how valid the lie detection test really is?
Polish
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- Mar 11, 2009
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masking_agent said:Ashenden Really ? well there's one nail in his coffin FOR SURE
Yes, it is beginning to look like Alberto will soon be added to that long list of ex-mates of Lance who have been banned.
Floyd,Tyler,Roberto,Alberto.
And so so many others.
Such a long list.
When will they ever learn sigh.
- Mar 18, 2009
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Merckx index said:
No one is going to prove a transfusion. WADA will only try to show that a transfusion is more likely than contamination, presumably by having Ashenden testify about Contador's bio passport values.
The danger seems to me to be that a well prepared and aggressive defense armed with bio passport-like data from other athletes (or non-athletes for that matter) could be used to attack Ashenden and the bio passport. The UCI suspicion list has Contador at a five, so his data will be inconclusive or borderline suspicious. If the process allows it, Ashenden could be raked over the coals by forcing him to answer questions about other people's data. If you hand him six non-extreme cases, can he reliably pick out the one belonging to a person who had a small transfusion? How confident can he be about small variations that could be natural? What type of false positive rate does his opinion have? Has the bio passport committe even studied the issue of false positives with middle of the road profiles? The defense should be looking to back him into a corner and force an admission that in borderline cases his opinion is weakly supported by research and not much more than a guess.
- May 14, 2010
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Cloxxki said:
Merckx index said:
That brings up a distinct if perhaps unlikely possibility we haven't discussed: a lifetime ban. To me, that would be very sad. If it does happen, I predict smiles all around in Austin, plus the uncorking of a few champagne bottles.
Regarding why he would have transfused with Clen tainted blood, since he'd have to have known it was tainted: I don't think you realize just how minute the amount was. Going by their (Contador and his people) previous experience and the standard operating procedures (and the regular lab), the blood was clean and Clen-free. It was only the Cologne lab that detected this microscopic amount. If they subjected everyone's blood to such scrutiny, almost every rider would fail.
- Jul 9, 2009
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Polish said:
You know, most of the time your posts are borderline entertaining. I enjoy checking in from time to time to see what the village idiot has to say now.
Every once in a while you get so stupid that I just want to shout STFU. This was one of those times.
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