Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[BroDeal]

Contador has spent 4,25 million krones on his defence, which is 571037 euros and 768507 dollars.

Sounds like he spent much more wisely than Landis.

 

[BroDeal]

If I understand this argument correctly, it’s made to explain the fact that DEHP metabolites appeared in the urine before CB. But as noted here before, this can probably be explained by pharmacokinetics. If WADA is seriously pushing this scenario, they must believe that the pharmacokinetic argument will not work. I will look around and see if I can find some more.

It seems to me that this could easily be turned around by Contador's defense to an argument against a transfusion. If he did get a transfusion then the DEHP and Clen levels should have appeared at the same time. Instead WADA has to invent a scenario to explain the discrepancy.

 

[masking_agent]

Contador has spent 4,25 million krones on his defence, which is 571037 euros and 768507 dollars.

and this is why on the flip side of things is where I think he'll get off. The big players, have the $$$ to surround themselves with good lawyers who make a mockery of any justice system and the accused walks. Or there is some back door deal reached unknown to the public with a lot of $$ exchanging hands. Unfortunately, this is what our society has become.

Rasmussen didn't "lawyer up" in the proper way and we all know what happened to him.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

'...'If you can show me where in the WADA code it states two different standards, then I’ll change my mind, but I’ve never seen that mentioned.

Its in article 3.1

The standard of proof for anti doping violations is "comfortable satisfaction", lying between balance of probability and reasonable doubt. The standard of proof for athletes rebutting established facts is only balance of probability.

'...'but based on this, it seems plausible to me that high concentrations of DEHP metabolites would appear in the urine before peak CB levels. '...'

Interesting - thanks

 

[python]

.....trying to isolate some ‘new’ important bits that were reported since the case started. (there is no way to verify that they are true facts as all parties don’t comment or leak any hearing details)

- the butcher who allegedly sold the meat swears it originated outside the basque country

- claims that in may 2010 contador’s haemoglobin spiked to 17.9 g/l from its ‘usual level’ of between 16 to 16.5g/l.

this bit is the most significant in my opinion. if it’s true that contador’s ‘usual level’ is 16-16.5, it’s almost a certainty that he must have an official uci medical permit to exceed current blood thresholds (50% hct./17g/l hgn) remarkably, i haven’t seen a single comment to this fascinating bit anywhere. iow, either contador has natural physiology similar to cunego’s or he was carrying on the charade by ‘topping up’ since being a junior. (btw, ricco did finally screw up the very same charade with the uci permit)


- allegedly the plastisizer test results indeed are being brought forward by wada to back up a specific transfusion theory.

the last 2 bits - potentially having a blood permit from the uci and yet being suspected by the same body of abnormal blood values - make this case a piece of fine drama (or a comedy if you're a cynic of my persuasion)

 

[LaFlorecita]

There's the other possibility (I hope you are sitting down for this one) that he actually believes he's innocent.

OMG.
........

 

[sniper]

There's the other possibility (I hope you are sitting down for this one) that he actually believes he's innocent.

believe me, he DOES INDEED believe he's innocent, as does the whole peloton. it's a well-known part of the nature of doping and doping-mentality in the peloton.
and in some way, yes, he IS innocent, or at least less guilty than the doping doctors/managers and the UCI, who facilitate, supply and/or encourage doping.

 

[Benotti69]

believe me, he DOES INDEED believe he's innocent, as does the whole peloton. it's a well-known part of the nature of doping and doping-mentality in the peloton.
and in some way, yes, he IS innocent, or at least less guilty than the doping doctors/managers and the UCI, who facilitate, supply and/or encourage doping.

Yes in the same way Ullrich feels he was treated badly in comparison to Basso and others who were banned at the same time as him. They (those caught) all feel unfairly treated when they claim they were only doing what everyone else is doing and does.

 

[Merckx index]

Some things to keep in mind about the transfusion case, particularly wrt the DEHP test:

1) According to the info we have, Bert tested positive for DEHP (plasticizer) on July 20.
2) He tested positive for clenbuterol (CB) on every day from July 21-25, except July 23, when he wasn’t tested. He tested negative for CB on July 20. So there is a discrepancy of one day between when DEHP turned up in his system, and when CB did.
3) According to a story in El Pais, WADA might try to explain the discrepancy by arguing that Bert infused red blood cells only on July 20, saving the separated plasma for a separate transfusion on July 21. At least, this is the way I understand it. But there are numerous problems with this scenario:
a) it’s not obvious why he would do this. Riders are frequently thought to blood dope by separating cells from plasma, reconstituting the cells with saline, and infusing that mixture. But there would be no reason I can think of to infuse the plasma later on. If he felt his blood wasn’t dilute enough, he could infuse more saline, or take a substance that would cause his system to absorb more water. You would think the last thing he would want to do is store for an additional day anything that could lead to an immediate suspension.
b) Most of the DEHP, probably, would be in the plasma, not in the red cells. So if he transfused separated red cells on July 20, he would not be putting a lot of DEHP in his system. Moreover, if he did transfuse plasma on the following day, there should have been a second peak of DEHP. Though it’s not entirely clear from the limited data that were posted on the internet, it seems there was no such peak.
A problem here is that the published studies showing that DEHP levels in urine go way up following transfusion used whole blood. Using red cells separated from plasma is uncharted territory. DEHP is poorly soluble in aqueous solutions, so some of it might partition into red cells, but no one knows how much, or how quickly it might dissociate out and be cleared following transfusion of the cells. And while CB is somewhat more water soluble, I believe, some of it, too, might have been infused with just red cells. Yet he tested negative on July 20.
c) July 20 was the day before a rest day. Why would he transfuse then? The normal time to do it is during the rest day. He might have transfused in the evening of July 20, after the day’s stage, with the rest day ahead. But I assume that he gave his July 20 sample right after the stage, before he could have gone to his hotel or wherever and transfused.

4) One might argue that Bert transfused on July 20, and that because DEHP is cleared from the blood much faster than CB, he tested positive for the former but not the latter. While this might be possible if the sample were taken after the transfusion, as noted above, it almost certainly would not be. If he tested positive for anything after the stage on July 20, he must have taken that substance before the stage that day, if not earlier. But in addition to that not fitting the notion that a transfusion would be done on a rest day, if he did transfuse before the stage, one would expect that enough CB would be in his urine to trigger a positive upon testing after that stage. Remember, the CB sensitivity is very high at this lab, one of his samples tested positive at less than 10 ng/ml. I can’t say with absolute certainty that he would test positive if he transfused before the stage, but it seems highly likely to me.
5) As matters seem to stand now, the DEHP test is more of a problem for WADA than an aid in establishing transfusion. If there were no such results, a very strong case IMO could be made by arguing a) his CB levels are not consistent with meat that passes the Euro standard, and statistics show that meat that doesn’t pass the standard is extremely rare; and b) his CB levels are consistent with concentrations of the substance that would be in his blood if he took it at typical doses used to lose weight; and c) his CB levels are also consistent with a transfusion that took place on the rest day, definitely not before.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Tiralongo just walked out of the courtroom. I bet this was the way he pays back Alberto for the gifted stage win during the Giro.

 

[bicing]

Mad props to Mercxz Index for the best most informative posts on this thread. LEGEND, bro.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Interesting...

Polygraph test says Contador is innocent.

English translation can be found here.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Mad props to Mercxz Index for the best most informative posts on this thread. LEGEND, bro.

Indeed. Merckx's posts have been exceptionally informative. There are some posters on this thread who really know their stuff on this subject.

 

[Race Radio]

Polygraph test says Contador is innocent.

English translation can be found here.

Also the palm reader said he has a long, prosperous, life ahead of him

 

[L'arriviste]

I'm really liking the fact that there's been daily coverage (well, it's only Day 2 but ...) with journos on the doorstep earning their money for a change. That will help to keep this particular potato nice and hot.

 

[bicing]

Polygraph test says Contador is innocent.

English translation can be found here.

George Constanta on how to beat the polygraph: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ

 

[GJB123]

Having read the last post by MI, I more and more get the feeling that WADA is shooting itself in the foot with a way too detailed alternative theory. If a poster on a cycling forum (no disrespect meant MI) is already able to shoot numerous holes in the propsed theory, you can imagine what AC's defense team will be doing to it. If they make a few doubts about the proposed transfusion theory stick, the whole theory in itself will go out of the window and it becomes that much more difficult for WADA to establish transfusion as the most likely explanation of the positive.

Regards
GJ

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Polygraph test says Contador is innocent.

English translation can be found here.

yup, now he MUST go free of charge

 

[L'arriviste]

Anyone else find the polygraph element of the Contador defence in very bad taste?

 

[LaFlorecita]

yup, now he MUST go free of charge

Yes!!!!!!!!!!

 

[roundabout]

Bad taste?

No.

More like a farce.

 

[Publicus]

Bad taste?

No.

More like a farce.

I wouldn't go that far. It's probative value is limited, but it is not a complete farce (e.g., Tyler's twin). Let's put it this way, Contador will give testimony before CAS as well. The panel will then consider his testimony and his propensity to tell the truth. There are a myriad of things that folks will point out as his incentive to lie. He has to counterbalance that in some manner (whether you agree with his position or not, he's attempting to defend himself), and frankly pointing to somewhat quirky, independent method to demonstrate his veracity is a helpful, but not dispositive, point.

That's the lawyer in me speaking.

 

[Forunculo]

Probably the polygraph is a better proof than a theory building by assumptions

Nah, I surprised that wada lacks solid profs after more than a year and brings experts to hold a theory. If one citizien is judged and found guilty only by assumptions it would be a scandal. I'm starting to think the sucesives delays were from wada and not Contador's lawyers. Gaining time for whatever thing they can use.

The biggest sporting case as it's been naming is a big flop I don't expect any clear thing from this hearing and the solution will be political.

 

[lean mean &green]

According to a story in El Pais, WADA might try to explain the discrepancy by arguing that Bert infused red blood cells only on July 20, saving the separated plasma for a separate transfusion on July 21.

it seems far fetched that WADA would explain or even leak info about their strategy.

i don't speak spanish and i haven't had time to run it thru google translation so i'll pose the question to all somewhat rhetorically, how credible is this source?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

it seems far fetched that WADA would explain or even leak info about their strategy.

i don't speak spanish and i haven't had time to run it thru google translation so i'll pose the question to all somewhat rhetorically, how credible is this source?

I skipped everything but this last page, but this was in my mind. And even if something did get out, whats the probability that it all got out; we don't know how much of the picture we see