Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[Merckx index]

Your argument hinges on the eccentric scientific notion that the full range of probabilities will add to 100%. Such mathematical pedantry has no place in a legal system.

Yes, you’re right, that is what my argument hinges on. It’s not pedantry, it’s logic. If logic has no place in a legal system, then so much worse for the law. Any detective novel will tell you that when you eliminate all the likely or preferred possibilities, the unlikely or unwanted possibility is all that remains.

The argument also hinges on the fact that all the hard scientific evidence, viz., statistics, supports transfusion, directly or indirectly. The Spanish meat testing numbers. The published DEHP studies. Pharmacokinetics. In contrast, the arguments against transfusion—he wouldn’t have taken this much CB; he wouldn’t have transfused twice; there are no negative passport data (that we know of)—are based on soft evidence, i.e., evidence that cannot be evaluated probabilistically. IOW, anyone can decide for himself how strong that evidence is.

But if everyone else is comfortable with a system that is illogical, and gives as much or more weight to subjective factors as hard evidence, who am I to protest?

I'll just add that for anyone who supports Bert to argue that this 100% probabilities is pendantic (I don't know if you do support him, July, but for anyone who does) is hypocritical. The case originally devolved around whether Bert could prove the meat was contaminated. He got a huge break when RFEC in effect DEFINED the case as transfusion vs. contamination. Now he no longer had to prove contamination, he only had to prove it wasn't transfusion. All I'm doing is pointing out that if he's to be the beneficiary of that either/or logic, the logic should be applied fairly.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Yes, you’re right, that is what my argument hinges on. It’s not pedantry, it’s logic. If logic has no place in a legal system, then so much worse for the law.'...'

You are preaching to the converted here, that was precisely my point.

But if everyone else is comfortable with a system that is illogical, and gives as much or more weight to subjective factors as hard evidence, who am I to protest?

Not even slightly comfortable with it, hence my sarcasm about it in the previous post. My other point was that if you hope to understand the legal mind you will need to set aside your understanding of the fundamentals of probability. Is there a prize for the meanest thing ever said about lawyers on the Internets?

I'll just add that for anyone who supports Bert to argue that this 100% probabilities is pendantic (I don't know if you do support him, July, but for anyone who does) is hypocritical.

It's only hypocritical in someone who gets probabilities. In others, it's ignorant or just plain daft. For the record, I'm a huge Bert fan, but since the clen AAF, I can't find any grounds to continue to give him the benefit of the doubt WRT to doping. I have to hope he is sanctioned.

 

[The Hitch]

I do read a lot of your post Hitch and you are very defensiv about AC and saying that a simple link between a rider and a doping doctor is as bad as a psoitive test is very fanboyish.

Sigh, this is the new Goodwins law. Just accuse any opinion you disagree with of being "fanboyish".

Why argue when you can just throw insults at your opponent.

BTW your little sleight of hand claiming that you read my posts, fails when you say that im very defensive about AC. It shows that you don't read a lot of my posts because Ive always said that Contador was doping, always laughed at his explanations, always said he was lying in interviews.

Yes, thats very defensive

Im not even defending Cotnador, but attacking Frank Schleck.

My post was nothing more than a challenge to airstream as to how he can maintain a love of one doper while complaining about the practises of another.

Unfortunately you happened to like rider a, get upset by the challenge, and resort to insults to get back at me for attacking said rider. a shame.

I think a link between a doping doctor and a positive test for clenbuterol are the same because they show 99% that a rider is doping. Pretty simple isnt it

But not if theres a simpler option, just cry FANBOY!!!

 

[airstream]

Sigh, this is the new Goodwins law. Just accuse any opinion you disagree with of being "fanboyish". Why argue when you can just throw insults at your opponent.

Even me, with my bad English and inability to catch on to sense entirely sometimes, realize that you're a big Contador's fanboy. Honestly I appreciate your effort to be unbiased though.

My post was nothing more than a challenge to airstream as to how he can maintain a love of one doper while complaining about the practises of another.

There was nothing but suspicion on Frank Schleck. If Contador will be cleared, it's ok, so he is not really guilty.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

So hitch is a fanboy of contador, samu and velverde..lol what abt purito and majka? i guess coming soon at a thread near u

 

[The Hitch]

Even me, with my bad English and inability to catch on to sense entirely sometimes, realize that you're a big Contador's fanboy. Honestly I appreciate your effort to be unbiased though.

You're right, your English is bad and your sense is lacking, otherwise you would realize that I never said that "I am not a fanboy" (give me some credit, I would not stoop to your low level by accepting that term) but rather said "Im not defending Contador".

Which I am not, since I admit he is doping, lying, stupid etc.

I never argued that I am not a "fanboy" because (and you would have got this point if your english was sufficient to understand the 2nd part of my post) I reject this stupid term completely.

Its just an insult used by people like you to slander someone when you dont like what they are saying. Judging by all the posts in which you don't do much else, I assume its because you have nothing of any actual substance to say.

 

[Ripper]

...

Dude (or dudette), you have a photo of Schleck as you avatar. A bit of rock and glass house when using the term fanboy, don't you think?

 

[scullster46]

So hitch is a fanboy of contador, samu and velverde..lol what abt purito and majka? i guess coming soon at a thread near u

Hitch is just a fanboy of exciting cycling, nothing more, nothing less

 

[Andynonomous]

Airstream's car, after accusing Hitch of being a fanboy.

 

[Ripper]

Airstream's car, after accusing Hitch of being a fanboy. ...

You just need to airbrush in a faceshot of a Schleck

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Speculation

The comments on this thread are interesting, but the bottom line since July 19, 2010 when the sample was taken, is that everything is speculation. There has not been one article, comment, or opinion on this case in any form of reputable world-wide media that is not based on sheer speculation or hypothetical theory.

The fault for this speculation is the secrecy in discilplinary proceedings at the national level and in the CAS. There is absolulely no justification for the CAS to hold closed proceedings. The secrecy only breeds distrust in the process and cynicism among cyclists and fans everywhere.

From a stricly legal point of view the secrecy is the antithesis of every reputable legal system in the world where courts are open to the public and to public scrutiny. Of what is the CAS afraid?

The CAS would do themselves and sport a huge favour if they abandoned their nonsensical and fundamentally flawed approach to these cases. The secrecy can only breed contempt toward the CAS and serves to diminish their credibility.

 

[airstream]

]Which I am not, since I admit he is doping, lying, stupid etc.

What's the use of challenging the obvious facts or you could do that and persuade anyone?

You're right, your English is bad and your sense is lacking, otherwise you would realize that I never said that "I am not a fanboy" (give me some credit, I would not stoop to your low level by accepting that term) but rather said "Im not defending Contador

Huh, and even here you do not miss the opportunity to assert yourself on me and ridicule. Very honorably, so it helps you in your life and your self-esteem will increase even more. Though I'm totally sure, some part of the forum would agree with me on your fanboysism, hopefully you won't accuse them of bad English. I will just discuss cycling with the guys, who does not have such vital necessities as teaching people to live and being patronizing, what I have always subjected to of you, as soon as I registered on the forum.

 

[El Pistolero]

What's the use of challenging the obvious facts or you could do that and persuade anyone?

So you think it's an obvious fact that Contador is stupid?

What's Andy then? Mentally challenged?(not that I think that)

I fail to see how it's an obvious fact that Contador is "stupid".

 

[B_Ugli]

The comments on this thread are interesting, but the bottom line since July 19, 2010 when the sample was taken, is that everything is speculation. There has not been one article, comment, or opinion on this case in any form of reputable world-wide media that is not based on sheer speculation or hypothetical theory.

Yes and no. The public do know what he has tested positive for and when he tested positive. AC has also made public his defence based on tainted meat. That means that these aspects of the case (such as whether we believe meat imported to the EU to be contaminated) can be scrutinised on forums such as these and others and people can draw their own conclusions. The public are also entitiled to set this against the background of teams/managers AC has ridden for in the past. The same cant be said for other L'Equipe style rumours and shakey links to Operation Puerto.

The fault for this speculation is the secrecy in discilplinary proceedings at the national level and in the CAS. There is absolulely no justification for the CAS to hold closed proceedings. The secrecy only breeds distrust in the process and cynicism among cyclists and fans everywhere.

From a stricly legal point of view the secrecy is the antithesis of every reputable legal system in the world where courts are open to the public and to public scrutiny. Of what is the CAS afraid?

The CAS would do themselves and sport a huge favour if they abandoned their nonsensical and fundamentally flawed approach to these cases. The secrecy can only breed contempt toward the CAS and serves to diminish their credibility.

I agree. The problem is that despite what you might think of AC he has a right to his day in court and indeed a fair trial. Unfortunately for this to be open to the public would result in it turning into a trial by media. The other point is that the joe public dont understand the rules by which the CAS & National Federations operate so their interpretation of those rules would be led by the day by day media outrage as the matter dragged on. You have to ask yourself which way of doing things would be more damaging to the sport? Its clear to everyone concerned that the way this case has been dealt with and the time its taken is an absolute farce.

 

[The Hitch]

Huh, and even here you do not miss the opportunity to assert yourself on me and ridicule. Very honorably, so it helps you in your life and your self-esteem will increase even more. Though I'm totally sure, some part of the forum would agree with me on your fanboysism, hopefully you won't accuse them of bad English. I will just discuss cycling with the guys, who does not have such vital necessities as teaching people to live and being patronizing, what I have always subjected to of you, as soon as I registered on the forum.

Cry me a river.

If you go round insulting people as fanboys then don't be so outraged when they respond with insults of their own.

Its hilarious the way like a 10 year old you see nothing wrong with attacking others but when they decide to play your game, you complain and ask "if they feel big".

There are at least 5 other posters who you have insulted in the same way on these boards in the last few months.

If you want to be treated with respect then treat others with it. Until then, don't be surprised if your "inability to catch on to sense" and "poor english skills" (your words not mine), are mocked.

 

[lean mean &green]

The comments on this thread are interesting, but the bottom line since July 19, 2010 when the sample was taken, is that everything is speculation. There has not been one article, comment, or opinion on this case in any form of reputable world-wide media that is not based on sheer speculation or hypothetical theory.

um no.

contador hired a dutch expert, dr douwe de boer, who released a very detailed report for public consumption just after the news broke - sept 3, 2010. since then, much of the RFEC documents/decision have been made public as well.

i think we're free to speculate about those very detailed reports/documents.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

God, i hate doped cyclists.....

 

[airstream]

So you think it's an obvious fact that Contador is stupid?

What's Andy then? Mentally challenged?(not that I think that)

Absolutely not. I wouldn't call it a stupidity, just some inconsistence in his words and lying. In May Contador tells that the Giro is the best race in the world and in July he tells the same about the TdF as if nothing had happened. He will easily tell it about the Vuelta in August.

I wouldn't justify Andy for his numerous wrong deeds.

If you go round insulting people as fanboys then don't be so outraged when they respond with insults of their own.

I see nothing offensive to call a man a fan/fanboy if someone is sensitive to every attack in the direction of its riders. If it hurts someone personally, well, I'm sorry. All the more so I saw that the only my disagreement enraged people on the thread about GC riders in 2011.

If you want to be treated with respect then treat others with it. Until then, don't be surprised if your "inability to catch on to sense" and "poor english skills" (your words not mine), are mocked.

Man, you overestimate yourself. There's no surprise for me. Your cycling arguments ended and you didn't find any other decision, but trying to mock my English (apparently you did that as cycling mega expert with 10k posts). I communicate well with the guys with mutual respect, peacefully, sometimes facetiously. And don't try to present this situation as though I'm looking for conflicts.

 

[Michele]

Absolutely not. I wouldn't call it a stupidity, just some inconsistence in his words and lying. In May Contador tells that the Giro is the best race in the world and in July he tells the same about the TdF as if nothing had happened. He will easily tell it about the Vuelta in August.

Thats called marketing.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

What?! That's insane!

And I am not saying this because I am an fan of Frank Schleck. I think his "case" was handled terribly by the luxemburg authorities and it was pretty clear that they did not wanted to find anything. However, a positive test is a positive test and you can't hide from that. Add to that the fact that AC already has got a free pass, a lá Fränk Schleck, in the OP "investigation". The pile of evidence against AC is stacking up.

I do read a lot of your post Hitch and you are very defensiv about AC and saying that a simple link between a rider and a doping doctor is as bad as a psoitive test is very fanboyish.

Judging from your posts you're a closeted Evans fanboy yourself, and, of course, a self-admitted Contador hater. You wrote that he's the rider you hate the most. Out of all the dopers out there, Contador has a special place in your heart.

So, to accuse someone else of being overly biased is a bit rich. Keep at it, though.

 

[airstream]

Thats called marketing.

Sure, but it doesn't look like skillful marketing. Certainly the riders are obliged to pay homage to different races, but almost everyone diversifies the characteristics like the one is the best, the second one has a special place in one's heart and so on. All the races are the best for Contador if he participates.He even tried to submit his comeback to the Giro as something that had allegedly been planned in 2010 yet. It's very ridiculous

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

All the races are the best for Contador if he participates.He even tried to submit his comeback to the Giro as something that had allegedly been planned in 2010 yet. It's very ridiculous

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-to-ride-giro-ditalia-in-2011

Check the date of this article.

 

[airstream]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-to-ride-giro-ditalia-in-2011

Check the date of this article.

But he said he would go only the Tour in August 2010, no?

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

But he said he would go only the Tour in August 2010, no?

He said a lot of things. He later said that he would do 2 Grand Tours, most likely the Tour and the Vuelta. Maybe because Riis and the sponsors thought it was a horrible idea to attempt the Giro-Tour double, considering the importance of the Tour.

 

[Michele]

Sure, but it doesn't look like skillful marketing. Certainly the riders are obliged to pay homage to different races, but almost everyone diversifies the characteristics like the one is the best, the second one has a special place in one's heart and so on. All the races are the best for Contador if he participates.He even tried to submit his comeback to the Giro as something that had allegedly been planned in 2010 yet. It's very ridiculous

After his great performance at Giro 2007 (? cant recall exact year) a young Andy Schleck said that he would surely come back one day for win it.

Is it ridiculous? No, nor what Contador said.
They are paied for ride and for please media.