Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

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Dr. Maserati

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Nilsson said:
Didn't they re-test (some) TDF-samples? At least I would would have expected that.
It was not a retest.

Nilsson said:
Originally just a few samples (from different riders) were sent tot Cologne. I thought re-testing was the reason why they found the samples containing minimal traces in Contador's samples from the days after the 'positive' one...

Even the plasticizer test was done in Cologne, with a sample that first had been analyzed in Laussane (and I presume the samples of the following days have been checked on DEHP as well - but not containing high levels allegedly). In Laussane they only started their own programme (based on the Barcelona and Cologne programs) last year, didn't they?

I'm not all sure, but I guess there's a lot of confusion about which samples are tested (and re-tested) at what lab...
Contadors samples of the 5th, 12th, 19th and 20th July were tested in Lausanne.
Contadors samples of the 21st, 22nd, 24th and 25th July were tested in Cologne.
 
Jan 10, 2012
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LaFlorecita said:
Almost. It went up to 17.9 while 16 to 16.5 is regular for Alberto.

Correct. Something that could have had multiple reasons and (assuming the data is right) is probably not very significant - not significant enough, at least.

For example: in Ivan Basso's passport hemoglobin goes from 13.7 to 16 g/dl in march 2009 resulting in a Z-score and Off-z score of 1.60 (being suspicious” if ≤ ‐2.33 or ≥ 2.33). And an Off-score of 100 (being 1 in 100 false positive: ≥ 116.7). It's a pattern he shows consistently (varying between 13 and 16) and has to do with altitude training (and extra iron intake)...

Assuming Contador's data is right, it looks pretty consistent and probably even more stable than Basso's (although hemoglobin is higher in absolute terms, but he isn't a better cyclist because he's less exceptional of course)...

More importantly I would say that hemoglobin isn't the parameter you should focus on if you would like to show a blood transfusion have occurred. Reticulocyte data would be more interesting...
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Which number is greater? A 5 or a 3?

I am beginning to think that you are engaging in obfuscation since the only thing that we know is that it's quite likely that the 5 on the index is well deserved and it's quite indicative of blood manipulation contrary to the continued efforts by you to paint a picture of Contador as a rider with exceptional and stable blood values...
 
Jan 10, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
It was not a retest.


Contadors samples of the 5th, 12th, 19th and 20th July were tested in Lausanne.
Contadors samples of the 21st, 22nd, 24th and 25th July were tested in Cologne.

And how do you know that for sure? The samples of the 22nd, 24th and 25th were initially sent to Laussane as well, weren't they?

And the plasticizer test of the 20th? They had a test in Cologne, not yet in Laussane as far as I know (only starting somewhere in april 2011, built on earlier work of Barcelona and Cologne). Indeed the sample initially went to Laussane, but do you have a source the plasticizer test was actually done in Laussane? As far as I know that can't be possible - implying re-testing and further investigation in Contador's case in Cologne...
 
Sep 25, 2009
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both %rets and hmg are important. both are the key parameter of the biopass.
(in addition to 5 secondary parameters). each has its +s and -s. (for ex hmg can be manipulated easier whilst %rets is less accurate interms of data spread)

we need both for a meanigfull discussion. the most telling sign likely no probs there is that ashenden was dismissed.
 
Jul 1, 2011
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Just to chip in and answer the highlighted.

Cologne is the laboratory with the sensitive test for clenbuterol. Contadors samples before the 21st July (the date of the first positive) were done in a different laboratory in Lausanne.

Interesting - the implication being maybe there was/might have been trace clen in these samples that just didn't get picked up?

Although in practice it would be a tough argument for the UCI/WADA to make in court that the negative clen results prior to the 21st, tested in a UCI/WADA accredited lab to accredited protocols/tolerances wasn't fairly strong evidence of being clear of clen!
 
May 15, 2011
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Cloxxki said:
No-one ate the steak but Contador. Bought especially for him, same quality as his mom makes for him. Or that kind of story. A lot of extra effort and then catch the one cow that died too shortly after being doped.

Oh my you're so funny..!
 
May 15, 2011
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roundabout said:
Which number is greater? A 5 or a 3?

I am beginning to think that you are engaging in obfuscation since the only thing that we know is that it's quite likely that the 5 on the index is well deserved and it's quite indicative of blood manipulation contrary to the continued efforts by you to paint a picture of Contador as a rider with exceptional and stable blood values...

That 5 was probably caused by that one spike. And you say it's quite indicative of blood manipulation. I'm sorry, but if a 5 means "quite possibly blood manipulation" I don't even want to know what a 10 means? "Super duper doper"? Why aren't Barredo and... Menchov(?) already convicted yet then?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Nilsson said:
And how do you know that for sure? The samples of the 22nd, 24th and 25th were initially sent to Laussane as well, weren't they?
No they were not.

I know from the original decision posted on Contadors website:
FOUR The documentation in these Proceedings.

As set forth in these Proceedings, the cyclist underwent seven consecutive tests during the international event called "Tour de France 2010" according to the analysis performed at the "Institut fur Biochemie, Cologne" and the "Laboratory of Lausanne." In the latter there was a negative finding in urine samples of 5, 12, 19, and 20 July 2010, and a positive finding for
Clenbuterol, which led to the initiation of these Proceedings, in those of the days 21 July 2010 (50 pg / ml), 22 July 2010 (16pg/ml), 24 July 2010 (7pg/ml) and 25 July 2010 (17 pg / ml) in samples analyzed in Cologne.



Nilsson said:
And the plasticizer test of the 20th? They had a test in Cologne, not yet in Laussane as far as I know (only starting somewhere in april 2011, built on earlier work of Barcelona and Cologne). Indeed the sample initially went to Laussane, but do you have a source the plasticizer test was actually done in Laussane? As far as I know that can't be possible - implying re-testing and further investigation in Contador's case in Cologne...
I have no information on the plasticizer test - I wasted little time on it because it has nothing to do with Contador and explaining his Clenbuterol positive.
 
May 15, 2011
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Dr. Maserati said:
No they were not.

I know from the original decision posted on Contadors website:

I know this is probably nit-picking, but I have to clear this up. It's not Contador's website, but a fansite (the most important one). Just to make sure ppl don't think all loads of fan **** gets posted on Alberto's official site.
(Official site is albertocontador.es/.com, by the way. The fansite is albertocontadornotebook.com)
 

Dr. Maserati

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RownhamHill said:
Interesting - the implication being maybe there was/might have been trace clen in these samples that just didn't get picked up?

Although in practice it would be a tough argument for the UCI/WADA to make in court that the negative clen results prior to the 21st, tested in a UCI/WADA accredited lab to accredited protocols/tolerances wasn't fairly strong evidence of being clear of clen!

No - there is a Minimum Required Performance Limit (MRPL) for WADA labs - for Clenbuterol the MRPL is 2ng/ml.

To quote the WADA document:
The MRPL is not a threshold, nor is it a limit of detection or a limit of quantification. Adverse Analytical Findings may result from concentrations below those listed in the table.
We know that the Cologne laboratory can detect much smaller amounts of clenbuterol then the 2ng/ml MRPL.
 
Jul 1, 2011
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Dr. Maserati said:
No - there is a Minimum Required Performance Limit (MRPL) for WADA labs - for Clenbuterol the MRPL is 2ng/ml.

To quote the WADA document:

We know that the Cologne laboratory can detect much smaller amounts of clenbuterol then the 2ng/ml MRPL.

Yes I know we know that. Never-the-less, while that's interesting on an internet forum I think it would likely be quite hard for WADA to stand up in a court and effectively say 'see these negative tests? Yeah these ones from our accredited lab? Yeah yeah tested properly to our rules and all that. Well, don't accept them being evidence of a negative test, cos you know they might not be.' At which point they might, arguably, in the legal sense, be fundamentally calling into question the very integrity of their entire testing regime. I'm fairly sure the accused laywers would jump on that.

Which probably explains why they didn't do that as far as anyone knows, and have accepted the premise that the Clen came from contamination on the 21st!
 
Dec 23, 2011
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RownhamHill said:
Well, don't accept them being evidence of a negative test, cos you know they might not be.

Well, that's correct. The lack of positive test results doesn't necessarily mean a negative (i.e. not doping) test result. Like someone saying "I've never tested positive for doping". Just because they haven't got proof, doesn't mean it's not happening.
 

Dr. Maserati

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RownhamHill said:
Yes I know we know that. Never-the-less, while that's interesting on an internet forum I think it would likely be quite hard for WADA to stand up in a court and effectively say 'see these negative tests? Yeah these ones from our accredited lab? Yeah yeah tested properly to our rules and all that. Well, don't accept them being evidence of a negative test, cos you know they might not be.' At which point they might, arguably, in the legal sense, be fundamentally calling into question the very integrity of their entire testing regime. I'm fairly sure the accused laywers would jump on that.
You're right this is an internet forum - I trust CAS to fully understand the difference that different labs can detect different amounts of clenbuterol.

RownhamHill said:
Which probably explains why they didn't do that as far as anyone knows, and have accepted the premise that the Clen came from contamination on the 21st!
CAS have made a decision? And they accepted contamination.
Case closed - good luck to Contador.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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RownhamHill said:
Interesting - the implication being maybe there was/might have been trace clen in these samples that just didn't get picked up?
this implication is irrelevant to the substance of the case as we know it. for several reasons:

- wada de facto admits it's irrelevance because their theory is that clen got into bert's system on the 21st. not the 20th.
-there is high likelihood that even if lausanne did test the 20th july sample and found nothing, cologne also would test the sample from the 20th and found nothing. BECAUSE it's a fact that COLOGNE tested 20 july sample for dehp. it takes only a 2ml of urine out of a 90 ml total volume.


Although in practice it would be a tough argument for the UCI/WADA to make in court that the negative clen results prior to the 21st, tested in a UCI/WADA accredited lab to accredited protocols/tolerances wasn't fairly strong evidence of being clear of clen!
absolutely correct. if lausanne tested on the 20th and reported no clen it means a negative.b/c the lab was an accredited wada lab at the time. as long as what they measured was less than the the minimum required performance limit of 2ng/ml.
 
Jan 10, 2012
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roundabout said:
Which number is greater? A 5 or a 3?

I am beginning to think that you are engaging in obfuscation since the only thing that we know is that it's quite likely that the 5 on the index is well deserved and it's quite indicative of blood manipulation contrary to the continued efforts by you to paint a picture of Contador as a rider with exceptional and stable blood values...

Firstly I was only speaking on the (leaked) hemoglobin data, assuming those are right. I have no data on Contador, but I do have data on Basso and I compared it to a variation in march 2009...

Secondly, I know about the index numbers. Numbers that are complex (not pure passport-suspicion, and definitely not pure hemoglobin data comparison). I wasn't hinting on, for instance, reticulocytes for nothing. Basso has very neat reticulocyte percentages; Contador may not (in your words: it could be one of the reasons making him a 'five' instead of a 'three')...
 

Dr. Maserati

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python said:
this implication is irrelevant to the substance of the case as we know it. for several reasons:

- wada de facto admits it's irrelevance because their theory is that clen got into bert's system on the 21st. not the 20th.
-there is high likelihood that even if lausanne did test the 20th july sample and found nothing, cologne also would test the sample from the 20th and found nothing. BECAUSE it's a fact that COLOGNE tested 20 july sample for dehp. it takes only a 2ml of urine out of a 90 ml total volume.


absolutely correct. if lausanne tested on the 20th and reported no clen it means a negative.b/c the lab was an accredited wada lab at the time. as long as what they measured was less than the the minimum required performance limit of 2ng/ml.

You say it is a FACT that Cologne tested 20th July sample for DEHP.

Can you show these facts because you wrote earlier in this thread that it was "alleged'.
python said:
i saw that statement before and wondered the same. however, that statement from rfec ruling is not specifically stating what you claimed - that pre-positive contador's samples were tested by lausanne.

both laboratories were involved in testing contador. lausanne almost certainly tested most, if not all his BLOOD samples and cologne received most if not all his urine samples.

the most important negative urine test that i was referring to - the one a day before the positive on 21 july - was also alleged to be tested for plasticizers by the cologne.

it is highly unlikely that the same urine sample from 20 july would be tested by 2 different laboratories.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
You say it is a FACT that Cologne tested 20th July sample for DEHP.

Can you show these facts because you wrote earlier in this thread that it was "alleged'.
it's easy - a fact based on the recently leaked information about a 2-step blood transfusion with rbcs on the 20th (found dehp) and plasma on the 21st (no dehp). it was 'alleged' (as in not yet officially confirmed by wada b/c the hearing is not over).my post you quoted was written before the latest leak last year - 11/22/2011. the leak was this january.
 

Dr. Maserati

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I checked the CAS Jurisprudence to see who & what must satisfy the No Fault or Negligence criteria for Contador to be cleared.

From the case - (CAS 2007/A/1370 & 1376 FIFA, WADA v/CBF, STJD, Dodô, para. 127)
122 Accordingly, relying on a long line of CAS cases (see e.g. CAS2006/A/1067 IRB v J. Keyter, para 6.8) and on the WADA code principals related to the athletes' fault or negligence, the Panel observes that the Player, in order to establish that he bears no fault or negligence, must prove:
(a) how the prohibited substances came to be present in his body and, thus, in his urine samples, and

(b) that he did not know or suspect, and could not reasonably known or suspected even with the exercise of utmost caution, that he had used or been administered the prohibitive substance

123 The proof of both (a) and (b) would eliminate the Player's two year sanction.

The relevant section of the case mentioned above (CAS2006/A/1067 IRB v J. Keyter, para 6.8) cites:
6.8 It is in this regard that the prior tribunals failed. The Definitions of No Fault or Negligence and No Significant Fault or Negligence must be applied (see infra at 6.13).
Accordingly, to establish exceptional circumstances the Respondent must
prove:
(a) how the prohibited substance came to be present in his body
, and (b) that he did not know or suspect, and could not reasonably have known or suspected even with the exercise of utmost caution, that he had used or been administered the prohibited substance.
The proof of (a) and (b) would establish No Fault or Negligence.

No Significant Fault or Negligence requires a Panel, in addition to
taking into account the factors relevant to a finding of No Fault or Negligence, to take into account the totality of the circumstances and, having done so, to conclude that the athlete’s fault or negligence was not significant in relationship to the antidoping rule violation. The Respondent is required to establish that the fault or negligence was not significant on the “balance of probability” (see supra at 6.4).
 
Sep 25, 2009
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what's new in those quotes you posted and what did we not discuss ? pls explain dr mas.
 

Dr. Maserati

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python said:
what's new in those quotes you posted and what did we not discuss ? pls explain dr mas.

We 'discussed' it before, now we have the conclusive definitions from CAS.

PS - you seem upset, everything ok?
 
Jul 27, 2010
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i perfectly understood your point. but again, expecting someone to behave illogically given the situation they are in only to satisfy someone's internet rhetorical questions is yes, silly.

You expressed that opinion before, which is why I prefaced my response to the poster with “if it were me”. I specifically avoided saying Bert should do that, only saying that if I were in that situation and were innocent, I would do it.

athletes cheat just like the farmers cheat. both are attempting to evade controls. doping techniques evolve to stay ahead of the tests. there is absolutely no reason to assume that cheating farmers will stop evading controls by NOT experimenting with doses and etc. assuming a fixed window for cheating like wada did and you seem to repeat is too simplistic.

I don’t understand your point. Yes, farmers can experiment to find the best dose for optimizing cattle growth and avoiding a positive test. But again, if they avoid a positive test, then the meat is safe to eat.

To pursue your analogy, riders micro-dose with EPO, in order to get PE effects yet have it cleared from their bodies before the test. In the same way, farmers may find doses that get their growth effects yet have the CB cleared from the animal before slaughter. The meat is then safe to eat and will not trigger a positive in someone who eats it.

How can a doping athlete avoid a positive? 1) avoid being tested when the drug is in his system; 2) use a masking agent; 3) use doses and timing in a manner such that there is not enough substance in his body to trigger a positive. The only one of these three that applies to farmers is 3). Wrt 1, they can’t avoid the possibility that their meat will be tested and traced to them. Yes, their meat not be tested, just like someone might speed when a cop is not around, but the testing system insures that if this kind of cheating is occurring at a significant level, it will be reflected in the statistics. The latter say it’s not happening. IOW, while some cheating is undoubtedly going on, the tests are ensuring that it is extremely unlikely that someone is eating contaminated meat.

Wrt 2, there is no masking agent for CB, a point you yourself made when Bert’s positive was announced.

we've been through this multiple times -- the same athlete, same sample, same lot number is positive if tested in germany but is perfectly 'clean' if tested in another country. why do you simplistically assume that testing a farming animal is less messy ?

That’s one reason why there is a 100 ng/kg standard. Because any lab can meet that standard. The standard is not set so that only a special machine in Germany can meet it. If it were, the standard would be meaningless, and WADA could not have based its evidence that Bert did not eat contaminated meat on this particular level. Do you seriously believe that some labs can’t detect 100 ng/kg, that they only detect, say, 200, 300 or 500 ng/kg? If this were the case, Bert’s lawyers would have been all over this immediately at RFEC, pointing out that in completely invalidated WADA’s pharmacokinetic estimates. And I not only would have agreed with them, I would have advised all my meat-eating Euro friends that Spanish beef is not as safe as advertised.

Sure, there may be meat that has CB at a lower level, which may or may not be detected, depending on the lab doing the testing. But this is completely irrelevant to Bert's case, because a lower level makes contamination even less likely. The case against contamination begins assuming that any meat Bert ate anywhere in Spain could contain up to 100 ng/kg.--that it could be this high and avoid detection. In this respect, he is given the benefit of doubt.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
We 'discussed' it before, now we have the conclusive definitions from CAS.

PS - you seem upset, everything ok?
this was a very simple question. no need to read into a questioner's state too much...if you insist i'll respond.

as to your 'we have the conclusive definitions from cas' you're simply confused or somehow imagine you discovered something new.

these 'definitions from cas' are identical to wada rules.


you discovered zero as far as i can see.

if you have found something special, i'd be interested to read it. no bad intentions at all.
 
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