Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[MarkvW]

Come on, Counselor, you keep regurgitating this stupidity that the main target for the Federal probe was given immunity from prosecution to spill the facts and thereby shut down years of investigative work by teams from numerous agencies seeking to prosecute Armstrong & Tailwind.

You fail to recall Birotte shut down the investigation and the Los Angeles Grand Jury before further witnesses were arranged to be put under the grill. This was the leaked complaint of Fed investigators against Birotte's abrupt closure.

So, in your scenario Armstrong must have been the last "witness" to spill the beans under oath. After his testimony there was no need to continue interviewing witnesses and putting those witnesses before the GJ.

You're arguing that it MUST be corruption or improper influence. That argument is as stupid as any other. You are just speculating, like we all are.

There's no need to call my arguments stupid.

 

[Oldman]

Lance was the first one.

He was driving the bus as well...

 

[Velodude]

You're arguing that it MUST be corruption or improper influence. That argument is as stupid as any other. You are just speculating, like we all are.

There's no need to call my arguments stupid.

It could be that Birotte elected to close down the investigation to save the taxpayer money as USADA could achieve the same near result. He has that option within his guidelines.

It could be corrupt political influence.

It could NOT be that Armstrong was provided with immunity from prosecution (prosecution of Armstrong being the main thrust of expenditure of millions of taxpayer dollars) to truthfully disclose his and the team's doping procedures so the US Government could send a strong message to dopers and doping enablers.

 

[RichWalk]

..and will we ever see any explanation for the fed closure? will Birotte ever be called for any of his actions?
I'm thinking that as time goes by we will see some information that might explain who/ what was behind the closed Fed case...

the rumour mill suggested it was linked to the US presidential campaign, I've no idea if this is true or not but it certainly provides a plausable reason?

 

[doolols]

It could be that Birotte elected to close down the investigation to save the taxpayer money as USADA could achieve the same near result. He has that option within his guidelines.

Whilst an investigation is on-going? With witnesses still to call, and investigators sure there was enough evidence? The truth about Armstrong's drug-taking is clear; as is his influence in the team to promote drug-taking amongst team members.

As time goes on, the stories about more witnesses come out, the decision to suddenly drop the case without any explanation looks more and more strange.

It could be corrupt political influence.

I remember at the time, links between Birotte and Armstrong and other highly-place politicians were written about on here.

 

[doolols]

I remember at the time, links between Birotte and Armstrong and other highly-place politicians were written about on here.

Whilst digging around, I found a link to a discussion ... where else? On here

From Scott SoCal:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1016078#post1016078

and the big ring:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1024847#post1024847

 

[doolols]

Just to be clear:

Dianne Feinstein recommended Birotte for the post of US Attorney for Central District of California

Feinstein opposes cuts to "Planned Parenthood"

LA contributes $100k to Planned Parenthood

Birotte drops case

Connection? Nah. Hardly at all.

 

[ebandit]

?

i'm looking forward to a few days time when usada report reaches uci and am wondering how the uci will put a positive spin on the report

lance knows when all is lost..............will fat pat?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Just to be clear:

Dianne Feinstein recommended Birotte for the post of US Attorney for Central District of California

Feinstein opposes cuts to "Planned Parenthood"

LA contributes $100k to Planned Parenthood

Birotte drops case

Connection? Nah. Hardly at all.

LA then donates $1.5M to the proposition 15 (or whichever one it was) "awareness fund" aimed at netting extra tax $ from tobacco sales - all in California.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

LA then donates $1.5M to the proposition 15 (or whichever one it was) "awareness fund" aimed at netting extra tax $ from tobacco sales - all in California.

Welcome back.

 

[trailrunner]

Just to be clear:

Dianne Feinstein recommended Birotte for the post of US Attorney for Central District of California

Feinstein opposes cuts to "Planned Parenthood"

LA contributes $100k to Planned Parenthood

Birotte drops case

Connection? Nah. Hardly at all.

The way the case was dropped smacks of of politics, but I don't think you can attribute it so neatly to this direct chain of events. Armstrong has connections in both parties that owe him a favor, or at least will pick up the phone when he calls. Who knows how these connections were made -- they could be old fraternity brothers, they could have worked at the same law firm when they were junior lawyers, they could have married each other's sisters -- who knows. Armstrong or one of his lobbyists calls in one of these favors to US Attorney, and the case is dropped. Or it happened higher up -- somebody from Armstrong's team called in somebody much more powerful (a senator, or some in Janet Napolitano's office) to tell Birotte to drop the case. It's similar to if you get a speeding ticket when you're driving in a different town, and your brother-in-law cop calls the other town's cops, and they dismiss the ticket for you.

 

[Benotti69]

The way the case was dropped smacks of of politics, but I don't think you can attribute it so neatly to this direct chain of events. Armstrong has connections in both parties that owe him a favor, or at least will pick up the phone when he calls. Who knows how these connections were made -- they could be old fraternity brothers, they could have worked at the same law firm when they were junior lawyers, they could have married each other's sisters -- who knows. Armstrong or one of his lobbyists calls in one of these favors to US Attorney, and the case is dropped. Or it happened higher up -- somebody from Armstrong's team called in somebody much more powerful (a senator, or some in Janet Napolitano's office) to tell Birotte to drop the case. It's similar to if you get a speeding ticket when you're driving in a different town, and your brother-in-law cop calls the other town's cops, and they dismiss the ticket for you.

It is not Armstrog connections.

It is Wesiel's connections. He is the puppet master in all this. If Armstrong goes down then Weisel might be dragged into a bigger mess. He has to keep his boy believing he is doing his utmost so Armstrong doesn't just throw himself and everyone else under the bus.

 

[doolols]

The way the case was dropped smacks of of politics, but I don't think you can attribute it so neatly to this direct chain of events.

The chain and timing are a bit strange, though.

News of Feinstein opposing the cuts breaks on the 2nd Feb:
http://www.baycitizen.org/blogs/pulse-of-the-bay/boxer-feinstein-oppose-komen-cuts/

News of Armstrong's donation breaks on the 3rd Feb:
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/03/lance-armstrongs-livestrong-to-donate-100k-to-planned-parenthood/

And Birotte pulls the plug ... on the 4th Feb:
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/stor...ose-lance-armstrong-doping-case-press-charges

Ordinarily, you would say that this is too obvious, and no one would be stupid enough to link these events so closely together. But we know, from (amongst other sources) Hamilton's book how Armstrong used to keep the EPO unhidden in the fridge, and talk about doping in cafes and such. He believed (and probably believes) that he is invincible and can't be touched, and doesn't need to be circumspect about anything.

 

[ToreBear]

Wouldn't the likelihood of conviction by a jury be increased if he had already been found guilty in the USADA process?

And vice versa, if he had been found innocent by the jury, wouldn't it be more controversial for USADA to ban him after that?

The way I see it, the most sensible thing was to drop the case and let USADA do it's thing, and then renew the investigation later.

My understanding of how the justice system works in the US is that Armstrong would have benefited greatly by being rich. Being able to drag out the court cases and appeals etc. for years. And the criteria for guilty is much stricter in a court than in the arbitration.

Now with people and potential jurors seeing this man as the biggest fraud in us sporting history, a jury is more likely to dismiss Armstrongs lawyers arguments as obfuscation, and find him guilty.

So perhaps this prosecutor actually did the right thing?

 

[aphronesis]

Just to be clear:

Dianne Feinstein recommended Birotte for the post of US Attorney for Central District of California

Feinstein opposes cuts to "Planned Parenthood"

LA contributes $100k to Planned Parenthood

Birotte drops case

Connection? Nah. Hardly at all.

Yep, that's exactly how life works here in the US. Glad you were able to suss it out with a modem and a bit of free time.

 

[doolols]

Yep, that's exactly how life works here in the US. Glad you were able to suss it out with a modem and a bit of free time.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that this is untrue? Or are you saying that the US doesn't do things like this?

 

[thehog]

Just to be clear:

Dianne Feinstein recommended Birotte for the post of US Attorney for Central District of California

Feinstein opposes cuts to "Planned Parenthood"

LA contributes $100k to Planned Parenthood

Birotte drops case

Connection? Nah. Hardly at all.

To clarify. "LA" contributed nothing.

All the money came from Livestrong.

 

[aphronesis]

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that this is untrue? Or are you saying that the US doesn't do things like this?

I'm saying neither. I might be suggesting that you (and anyone who thrills to the connections you make and have made them theirselves) might take a less instrumental and more expansive view of the world. Might free up some space.

 

[doolols]

The way I see it, the most sensible thing was to drop the case and let USADA do it's thing, and then renew the investigation later.

I don't think so. It gave Armstrong the moral high ground, and plebs like Liggett the ammunition to trot out the "cleared in a court of law ... no evidence" line.

Now with people and potential jurors seeing this man as the biggest fraud in us sporting history, a jury is more likely to dismiss Armstrongs lawyers arguments as obfuscation, and find him guilty.

So perhaps this prosecutor actually did the right thing?

Nice dream. There's no appetite for this amongst the vast army of non-Clinic members. Either people don't care any more ("it's all the past") or if they do care, they don't consider he did anything wrong ("only doing what everyone else was doing ... level playing field ... trying to even up the odds against those nasty Euro dopers").

As you say, there is a greater burden of proof in the federal case, so it's by no means clear that they would be able to prosecute the federal case. And if they did, be prepared for an avalanche of PR releases like "witchhunt" and "why don't they leave me alone?" and "want to look after my family and work tirelessly to help cancer victims" etc etc etc ad nauseum

 

[frenchfry]

To clarify. "LA" contributed nothing.

All the money came from Livestrong.

The problem is that he considers it to be the same thing

 

[ToreBear]

I don't think so. It gave Armstrong the moral high ground, and plebs like Liggett the ammunition to trot out the "cleared in a court of law ... no evidence" line.



Nice dream. There's no appetite for this amongst the vast army of non-Clinic members. Either people don't care any more ("it's all the past") or if they do care, they don't consider he did anything wrong ("only doing what everyone else was doing ... level playing field ... trying to even up the odds against those nasty Euro dopers").

As you say, there is a greater burden of proof in the federal case, so it's by no means clear that they would be able to prosecute the federal case. And if they did, be prepared for an avalanche of PR releases like "witchhunt" and "why don't they leave me alone?" and "want to look after my family and work tirelessly to help cancer victims" etc etc etc ad nauseum

Imagine Armstrong being cleared by a jury of his peers(Jurors who remembered to take off their yellow wristbands before jury selection), Liggets propaganda would actually have some truth in it. Even if he lost in a higher court he would have much more propaganda ammunition.

Now people see liggett as a corrupt propagandist, but given an Armstrong acquital more people would be likely to listen to him.


Now when information about Armstrongs activities become public, fewer and fewer potential juror members are likely to actually believe Armstrong. And some people might actually feel cheated by being led to believe he was clean when they watched his achievements.

 

[zigmeister]

October 10th or thereabouts, USADA will come out and say they need more time to compile the dossier. They will again claim all sorts of new information is coming out of the wood works and that they believe the beginning of the Omerta is at hand, all due to them.

Side note, whoops...turns out the USADA was sitting in on a bunch of the Feds witness testimony and case...but I thought they didn't know anything?!?!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

October 10th or thereabouts, USADA will come out and say they need more time to compile the dossier. They will again claim all sorts of new information is coming out of the wood works and that they believe the beginning of the Omerta is at hand, all due to them.

Side note, whoops...turns out the USADA was sitting in on a bunch of the Feds witness testimony and case...but I thought they didn't know anything?!?!

From what I understood from all the info / misinformation out that it might possibly cause problems for USADA if they used witness testimony and case in the USADA proceedings?

 

[DirtyWorks]

The way the case was dropped smacks of of politics, but I don't think you can attribute it so neatly to this direct chain of events.

Agreed.

Armstrong has connections in both parties...

Wiesel's good-ol-boys network and/or the nouveau riche method of paying lobbyists that visit the Congress critters to raise awareness for cancer research bills are most likely. It's a small world in that environment. Hiring a guy like Fabiani for greasing the wheels sure helps too.

It's a pay-to-play environment and right now, Wonderboy can apparently still afford to play the game.

Looking backwards at other doping related cases that have gone to Federal court, they've had an awful hard time making anything stick using the judicial system. In this way, I think it's actually better it worked out this way.

There's the slow-drip of civil legal cases to follow after the UCI attempts a few parlour tricks before vacating Wonderboy's results under protest. Ideally, criminal cases follow too.

 

[woodenswan]

Craig Ferguson (host of the Late Late Show): "Anyway, Sons of Anarchy, it's about a pack of hardcore bikers who live outside the law. Think Lance Armstrong but with less crime and drug dealing."